Disguise culture

[Void]

Again, isn't that the point of the disguise system? You can already do that to someone who is disguised all the time.

The way to OOCly check if the player is the real one would still be there, by the way. Clicking somebody's portrait in chat window starts a tell, and that on uses playername. However, if the character is disguised it uses disguise name. So you could still detect a faker with a click, if they said anything.

As far as I remember, the real harm is in OOC impersonation.

That one would be a bannable offence, no?

Also, I think it is already possible to try something like this, though you'll either end up with level 3 clone of existing character or will have to burn a guldorand start reward.

The point is, this is player-level problem that would result in player-level punishment.

The player name is not constant and is not valid way to ascertain real person either

Well, in case of disguise, the player name matches the disguise. Obviously, someone could set their name to really match the name of their character, but in this case the joke would be on them.

You basically, can't have both.
Either there will be quotes, and everybody with a disguise will have a target painted on their back.
Or there will be no quotes, and then it would be possible to impersonate characters (which can already be done to "always disguised" people)

disassociating characters from "person", muddling that even more. This is just an infinite rabbithole that can go deeper and deeper and deeper.

I personally do not keep track of who is who, as it bleeds into the game and affects my decision.

[The GrumpyCat]

That one would be a bannable offence, no?

Yes but the damage may have already been done and be pretty irreprable.

E.g. - lets say that Bob Meanyson disguises himself as 'Void' and then goes on a mass no-rp-killing spree, acting like real jerk. With no real way of people knowing ooc that this isn't the 'real' Void, then the ooc fallout will come down on you.

'But can't DMs tell the difference?'

Sure we can. And when we looked into it I've no doubt that we'd ban the real offender, - both for the act and for pretending to be you. But given that our process isn't transparent I don't know that we could clear your name with everyone who the pc wronged.

And this is just an egregious example. Consider subtler interactions, and the effects they may have.

[Void]

E.g. - lets say that Bob Meanyson disguises himself as 'Void' and then goes on a mass no-rp-killing spree, acting like real jerk. With no real way of people knowing ooc that this isn't the 'real' Void, then the ooc fallout will come down on you.

I'm fairly sure "they" already can do that.

I don't recall if playernames are meant to be unique, so they would already be able to use my name login name, create a clone of my character and go on no rp killing spree. Even if the names are not unique, substitutions are possible.

I actually vaguely recall this sort of thing happening on a server with similar system, where somebody got OOCly upset and tried to impersonate existing well known character. DIdn't go well for them.

The thing is, this is a suicidal action resulting in a death of an account.

[Curve]

People know "they" are disguised ooc because of the quotation marks. Player logins are not able to be duplicated, either.

[-XXX-]

Without the "your disguise was broken" / "your disguise held under scrutiny" lines there'd have been no way to tell whether the disguise was legitimately broken or if a metagaming incident report should be filed.

Out of curiorisity how can it be metagaming? If a player break it, then its fair and Square, if he dont how can he know who the real character is?

I dont abused the game, so for me its more "tempting" to Meta, when a OOC message tell me that i have been discovered?

Another player says in a tell/on discord/through forum pms that "Bob" is actually Alice.
Then you see "Bob" and say "hey, I know you're Alice!" without breaking their disguise. That's metagaming.

It's actually much simpler than that - players can easily learn the login account name behind the disguised character through in game means. All it takes from there is a guess (which can be fairly accurate depending on the context).

The primary function of the disguise mechanic is to arbitrate - for it to be effective at this role, the outcome must be made clear to all parties involved.

[Duchess Says]

Well I think the problem isn't killing sprees as much as butting up against the legally allowed limits of questionable behavior both IC and OOC. If you want to make someone else's character unplayable you don't break rules that will get you banned, you go around as them doing and saying spiteful stuff to make everyone turn against them both as a player and character. I don't think DMs want to go anywhere near arbitrating that and if it's not abundantly clear that was an imposter in disguise only a fraction of players would figure it out with your sending tells workaround.

It might be interesting if you were actually able to impersonate someone and get away with it but this community isn't "cool" enough to handle that. It absolutely would get pushed too far. We're all still in middle school in a lot of ways here, not to single Arelith out as that's common online.

[Curve]

We're all still in middle school

I'm a gown up who pretends to be a goblin. Speak for yourself.

[Void]

Well I think the problem isn't killing sprees as much as butting up against the legally allowed limits of questionable behavior both IC and OOC. If you want to make someone else's character unplayable you don't break rules that will get you banned, you go around as them doing and saying spiteful stuff to make everyone turn against them both as a player and character.

I believe this is very far fetched, to the point where there's no reason to consider the possibility of such thing happening. What you describe is a destructive behavior of a lunatic or unhinged person. Such people exist, and they get themselves banned very quickly. I'm of opinion that Arelith playerbase mostly consist of people that are not part of that category.

We're all still in middle school in a lot of ways here, not to single Arelith out as that's common online.

I'm adult, and a good chunk of the playerbase is. It is not uncommon to meet someone in their 50s playing. I personally think that people of higher age contribute more to creation of memorable characters, but I may be wrong here. And in this scenario "middle school" is a thing of the past. Distant past, I might add.

Imagine that there's a character whose player is, say, 45. It wrongs someone, and some random middle school player tries to dedicate the rest of their life to getting that that "45" banned. So they fake their name, make a clone of their character trying to ruin the reputation of 45. What do you think is going to happen?

They'll fail, because they'll be unable to replicate the character and people who know the character well will recognize that's somebody else. So the player will get themselves banned.

Another thing is that it takes a LOT of time to build any real infamy even in smaller community of 60 players or so. Months of dedicated work. So it won't be possible to wreck a player reputation in a few accidents. It takes dedication. And even after that the "infamous" player can simply shed the skin and switch the login name. Which happens frequently on arelith.

Like I said, even without quotes you'll have means to determine if the player is a disguised one or not. On OOC level. It simply won't be as obvious as current system where disguises are obvious at a glance and knowledge of someone being disguised bleeds into gameplay.

Personally I prefer and recommend a system where you focus on inter-character interactions and do not keep track of who is behind each character you meet. This makes the game more "fun" and prevents bleed of OOC relationship into the game. People who switch their login name often or play with -notell, likely play in the same way. But that's just my preference. I highly recommend to give it a try, however.

[Hazard]

We're all still in middle school

I'm a gown up who pretends to be a goblin. Speak for yourself.

[Exordius]

I'm a gown up who pretends to be a goblin. Speak for yourself.

As a great man once said, what's the point of being an adult if you cant act childish from time to time.

[RedGiant]

I'm really disappointed in the community for not realizing the solution already available to us all.

Spot Monkeys.

My next character is totally going to be a gift of hunter, multiclass 20 star pact warlock- 5 eagle totem druid - 5 bard with wandable clairvoyance, full suite of skill foci, and mad spot gear, with belts of seeing and all that Jazz.

Goodluck 'Twinkle Princess', Im going to KNOW you are actually Sarah Goodman.

[ltlukoziuz]

wandable clairvoyance

You do know spell spot bonus from Clairvoyance and True Seeing is not contributing anything to disguise breaking? Tis an idea though

[RedGiant]

I didn't know, because I haven't built my spot monkey yet, but thanks for the tip! Maybe this lark has revealed one more reason we are having this discussion. Disguise is a strong mechanic right now, it is often the 'I win' button of social interactions, and there isn't much you can do about it without building a dedicated spot monkey.

Most builds don't have the room to meaningfully get into the competition, and even if you do have the skill points/feats to spare, there is also the lurking wisdom vs. charisma issue. Which of these stats can fit into your build and which gives you the most benefit for the least investment? Arelith balance is ever-shifting, but I would argue cha is king right now when it comes to most benefit for least investment...and thus far more likely to shoe-horn in. Cha can both enhance your build power and social power in ways its counter cannot.

Short of a major rework, maybe allowing these aforementioned spells to contribute to disguise breaks (as they count toward stealth breaks) would make this a bit more of a contest.again. I'm for almost anything that brings some of the absurd numbers of disguised characters back down to terra firma.

[Void]

Spot Monkeys.

We need skyrim buckets in this game. Definitely.

[Hazard]

Can rolling a 20 break a disguise no matter your investment?

And if not ... could it?

Disguises seem pretty strong for just avoiding consequences and not every build can afford spot .. and even if you can afford it, you might not be a wis build.

[Eyeliner]

I think you have to be careful with making disguise easier to beat. It's almost always better in the long run if people can get away with a disguise for a while instead of shutting them down quickly. Getting away with it builds story, shutting it down is in most cases the end of the road.

[Void]

Can rolling a 20 break a disguise no matter your investment?

Skills do not crit and do not auto-succeed. So no.

Regarding Spot, sneak is already going to have a hard time with a few "gods of spot" that hang around the isle, plus everybody being able to pull a wand of true seeing.

[Hazard]

Can rolling a 20 break a disguise no matter your investment?

Skills do not crit and do not auto-succeed. So no.

Regarding Spot, sneak is already going to have a hard time with a few "gods of spot" that hang around the isle, plus everybody being able to pull a wand of true seeing.

We can WAND that now?

[Void]

We can WAND that now?

Good job noticing the issue. You'd need to find a cleric with animal domain and craft wand feat try.

What I do know that people carry wands/items around around and when they use them they become able to spot you instantly, even if they couldn't before, and even if you skill level on high/ms is fairly high.

One person even claimed that true seeing reveals all sneaks regardless of their skill level.

[Hazard]

One person even claimed that true seeing reveals all sneaks regardless of their skill level.

It does.

[Watchful Glare]

That one would be a bannable offence, no?

Yes but the damage may have already been done and be pretty irreprable.

E.g. - lets say that Bob Meanyson disguises himself as 'Void' and then goes on a mass no-rp-killing spree, acting like real jerk. With no real way of people knowing ooc that this isn't the 'real' Void, then the ooc fallout will come down on you.

'But can't DMs tell the difference?'

Sure we can. And when we looked into it I've no doubt that we'd ban the real offender, - both for the act and for pretending to be you. But given that our process isn't transparent I don't know that we could clear your name with everyone who the pc wronged.

And this is just an egregious example. Consider subtler interactions, and the effects they may have.

Playing Devil's advocate here. Why not make an exception for disguises rulebreak only where it concerns no quote disguises of an existing character when impersonating existing characters is an egregious rule violaton. A public announcement that X player/character has been banned for doing such, an incident in which the character did Z, X, and Y disguised as 'Void' for malicious intentions. With something like this no griefer would even have reason to do this if a few days later the impersonated player would be cleared, and they get permabanned anyways.

[Void]

One person even claimed that true seeing reveals all sneaks regardless of their skill level.

It does.

And that's one of the worst implemented ideas on the server right there. Instant "I win" button vs someone who has to invest in skills, gear and so on.

[perseid]

I realize that not overusing generic disguises is already advised but I've always felt like it was a bit of a lost cause the way it's laid out. Is it that much better if constantly disguised characters just shuffle through burner name after burner name? Because that seems like the end-game if generics are overly discouraged and it doesn't strike me as meaningfully different.

[ltlukoziuz]

And that's one of the worst implemented ideas on the server right there. Instant "I win" button vs someone who has to invest in skills, gear and so on.

Ummm.... You're complaining about base NWN mechanics. Not only that, but you're complaining about mechanics which have been nerfed in Arelith and need to be correctly timed, as the truesight component only lasts a SINGLE round (or if you have ESF: Divination, 5-6 rounds (normal vs extended); or if you're a diviner specialist wizard, 6-8 rounds). For the rest of duration, it's only spot buff and See Invisibility. In base NWN, the true sight component lasts for whole duration. (And forms which had truesight got it stripped too in Arelith. Remember when each important meeting had a person shapechange into Umber Hulk? Pepperidge Farm remembers)

As for wanding, it can't be wanded but there's a loot item which has 10 charges of True Seeing before burning up. Some folk keep em around and value them quite a bit.

[Curve]

I realize that not overusing generic disguises is already advised but I've always felt like it was a bit of a lost cause the way it's laid out. Is it that much better if constantly disguised characters just shuffle through burner name after burner name? Because that seems like the end-game if generics are overly discouraged and it doesn't strike me as meaningfully different.

This is my only real ish. I fall in the camp of erring on the side of disguisers and don't even looks characters for hope of getting some game run on my characters. I want to go along and be cool. But, when I run into the same people over and over again with a different disguise each time, I can't get my head around how to engage with them on a long-term basis, to build narrative or story.

That being said, I don't know the point of this thread. Is it just to aid grievances over the disguise system?