Disguise culture

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ltlukoziuz
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Disguise culture

Post by ltlukoziuz » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:42 am

So this is something that's been bugging me from the day I first came back to Arelith in late Summer after a long break - the amount of people constantly staying in a generic disguise. "X Elf, X Fighter, Travelling X, Masked X" and etc. etc. etc. different variations of it. The wiki clearly states these should be sparingly used, not more than brief encounters or one-off situations, and yet, every single time I have seen them over the several months I was in, it was used as if it's that person's identity, some of them literally living in it (one most egregious example was a person being "Adjective Occupation" and them changing the adjective multiple times, but always staying in disguise, way over RL month). When I first asked several people about it, I got same response - "It's just something that is overlooked, get used to it" and at first I avoided doing anything about them (especially if it was just passer-by) but honestly, the quantity of it is making it question if it's really fine that it's overlooked, so I wanted to see if others felt the same before I go stir crazy into reporting frenzy about that on future.

There's also another kind of disguise I sometimes see, though thankfully much rarer: "<first name>". However, once broken it reveals to be "<same first name> <last name>". Doesn't that fall in the forbidden category (just how titles/nicknames/added on details do)?


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Re: Disguise culture

Post by mourisson1 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:01 am

Some people might use the Disguise to hide their slave status, and in that case, you need to have it up pretty much all the time you are (for instance) visiting the surface. So there can be reasons to use it very often. Or you are actually someone who is Kill on Sight for some characters, and you dont want to randomly bump into them, when you are around, etc. So it makes kinda sense to me that some people have reasons to using disguise very often
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:17 am

It gives a sense of security that your floaty name won't immediately be used to identify you, as well.

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ltlukoziuz
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by ltlukoziuz » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:59 am

Maybe I phrased myself incorrectly. I am not advocating that disguising yourself for longer period of time is bad. That on itself is great and should be encouraged. What I'm specifically wondering is the genericness of those disguises. Back when I played 2-3 years ago, almost all disguises were alternate identities, just how the wiki is suggesting to, because you're doing that more than for a day, and so everyone acted on expectation that you "had to construct an identity for posing" (heck, this was back when (disguised) was a thing, which made them even harder to keep acting than today's ""). The "adjective noun" disguises were a fairly rare thing, and rarely walked across (at least as far as surface goes), and yet it has flipped now. The alternative identities are maybe, at best, 20% of all disguises, hence my question whether this is an accepted flip, or just something that drifted without supervision and let itself happen.


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Re: Disguise culture

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:38 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:17 am
It gives a sense of security that your floaty name won't immediately be used to identify you, as well.
which I'm fine with if rules reflected it. I wish this was something that rules bettee accommodated or hammered down on because i feel like a wet log in a fire when observing and yet avoiding this behavior.

It also amuses me when people had rheir secrer identity reveal by property and surprised.

So i want ti remind everyone. That if yiur character has a secret name that they don't publicly use or sign papers with. Don't make that your character name. Be like batman where tour true identity is the costume (disguise used sparingly) and your public property signing face is the name above your head. Ans if wanting ro do a big identity reveal down the road, ask DMs for name change.

Your commonly non concealed face name should be the one on your "character sheet".

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Cuchilla » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:26 pm

What I bring up here, is just an assumption, so if I am wrong, I'd like to apologize. I've seen this happen quite a few times, and not sure what to think about it.

It occurs to me, that disguised persons, when someone is sneaking on them, and tries to break their disguises, they get an OOC message: Your disguise was broken/held under scrutinize (or something like that). Sometimes I seen that seconds after this happens, they cast True Seeing. This of course could be a coincidence. But sometimes, I think: Oh wow, what a coincidence! And even if they don't cast true seeing, they are now aware that someone is sneaking around. A knowledge that is totally OOC.

I am not sure this is a rule's break, and if it is, it is hardly possible to decide whether or not this is a "lucky coincidence".

Anyway, I am just bringing up that disguise, imo can be (ab)used by players to find out if there are any sneaks out there. This is really not a big issue, so ... please don't cause a fuss over it.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Void » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:34 pm

Cuchilla wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:26 pm
It occurs to me, that disguised persons, when someone is sneaking on them, and tries to break their disguises, they get an OOC message: Your disguise was broken/held under scrutinize (or something like that). Sometimes I seen that seconds after this happens, they cast True Seeing. This of course could be a coincidence. But sometimes, I think: Oh wow, what a coincidence! And even if they don't cast true seeing, they are now aware that someone is sneaking around. A knowledge that is totally OOC.
Yes. Likewise a disguised sneak will have a warning that he/she was detected when somebody tries to examine them. Also an OOC knowledge.
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:37 pm

The main issue I recognize is that you can use a name, any name, to be immune to Scry if no one meta-games your name and scries on you anyway, but if they do that they are breaking the rules and not you. So basically it's a free get out of jail card vs scry. Other than that, I dont see a major issue with people using generic names with no specific identity because if they do it often enough and hang out in hubs they'll just get reported and if they dont do it often enough to get reported then they are within the "use sparingly" zone.

And this..
It occurs to me, that disguised persons, when someone is sneaking on them, and tries to break their disguises, they get an OOC message: Your disguise was broken/held under scrutinize (or something like that). Sometimes I seen that seconds after this happens, they cast True Seeing. This of course could be a coincidence. But sometimes, I think: Oh wow, what a coincidence! And even if they don't cast true seeing, they are now aware that someone is sneaking around. A knowledge that is totally OOC.
... is definitely a reportable offense that's also easy to spot and report. Unlike when someone just walks up to you to break your -cover, the log reports that they cast True Sight a soon as their disguise was broken. This is not a major issue that requires any special tools to investigate, nor it is difficult to spot live in action. A simple screenshot with a general description of half a line will do.
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Void » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:44 pm

ltlukoziuz wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:42 am
So this is something that's been bugging me from the day I first came back to Arelith in late Summer after a long break - the amount of people constantly staying in a generic disguise. "X Elf, X Fighter, Travelling X, Masked X" and etc. etc. etc. different variations of it. The wiki clearly states these should be sparingly used, not more than brief encounters or one-off situations, and yet, every single time I have seen them over the several months I was in, it was used as if it's that person's identity, some of them literally living in it (one most egregious example was a person being "Adjective Occupation" and them changing the adjective multiple times, but always staying in disguise, way over RL month). When I first asked several people about it, I got same response - "It's just something that is overlooked, get used to it" and at first I avoided doing anything about them (especially if it was just passer-by) but honestly, the quantity of it is making it question if it's really fine that it's overlooked, so I wanted to see if others felt the same before I go stir crazy into reporting frenzy about that on future.

There's also another kind of disguise I sometimes see, though thankfully much rarer: "<first name>". However, once broken it reveals to be "<same first name> <last name>". Doesn't that fall in the forbidden category (just how titles/nicknames/added on details do)?
Here are bunch of possible reasons to use generic disguises:

* They conceal your player name on the portal.
* They sort of work instead of "introduction". First/Last name is not known at a glance, yet nwn1 displays floating name (would be great to have an "introduction" system where somebody's name is not known until they t old it to you, or you were introduced)
* If you intend to whisper while invisible your full character name will be concealed if you're disguised.
* If you are doing something questionable and don't want your name plague to be visible from another part of the map.

Basically, in many cases the disguise even with negative bluff can be of use.
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Security_Blanket » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:09 pm

I think he's referring more to the apparent overuse by some players, which I to have noticed. Some players come out with very interesting and unique disguises, going above and beyond to portray their alias. Then there are those that simply disguise as "Tall Dark Shadowy Figure" or whatever ALL THE TIME and on characters that haven't even any Bluff, my character without Spot breaking their disguise regularly with ease. From my understanding of disguise and how it's meant to be played is to be used sparingly and only to specifically hide their identity, no titles, no nicknames, not always anonymous as a way of life.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Skibbles » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:10 pm

I'd guess it's one of those rarer things that is so rampant across hundreds of characters that it becomes more or less unenforceable without an overt concerted push, a nasty feedback thread or two, and some rpr battering if it came to it.

Its kind of a shame how it's often used 24/7. Batman is so much cooler when he's also sometimes Bruce Wayne.
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Amateur Hour » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:29 pm

I think it's also worth noting that just because you only ever see Batman doesn't mean Bruce Wayne is never there. Bruce Wayne goes to charity galas; Batman swoops through the shadowy alleys.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:48 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:37 pm
The main issue I recognize is that you can use a name, any name, to be immune to Scry if no one meta-games your name and scries on you anyway, but if they do that they are breaking the rules and not you. So basically it's a free get out of jail card vs scry. Other than that, I dont see a major issue with people using generic names with no specific identity because if they do it often enough and hang out in hubs they'll just get reported and if they dont do it often enough to get reported then they are within the "use sparingly" zone.
It is my understanding/opinion that people can attempt to scry a full alternate alias. So in that way fake names are better to be used in disguises than doing the whole "I'm joe, but name above me says bob.. so even though I am essentialy Joe to the whold world because its the only name i ever say IC, but you must type in bob when trying to scry."

again though.. your most commonly used name IMO should laready be the name above head.. from owning property to scrying etc. Let your secret alias.. be secret both IC and OOC.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:50 am

Amateur Hour wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:29 pm
I think it's also worth noting that just because you only ever see Batman doesn't mean Bruce Wayne is never there. Bruce Wayne goes to charity galas; Batman swoops through the shadowy alleys.
Yeah, but batman is the one with the mask and what you would use the disguise outfit for (even bruce wayne 'is the mask to the true persona') and bruce wayne would be the normal name above the head that's used for property ownership, etc.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:37 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:48 am
It is my understanding/opinion that people can attempt to scry a full alternate alias.
It is my understanding as well, but the character needs to know the name IC right? So in that sense, you can only scry on actual names, real or fake plus your character needs to know the name they are scrying on IC. On one hand it seems like a cheap way to cheat the Scry mechanic. On the other hand, I really despise the scry mechanic so whatever. Just pointing it out in the appropriate thread where it belongs.
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Duchess Says » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:46 am

Imagine if you were able to add a second line under your name with a short descriptor if you wished ("carrying lumber", "scroll merchant", "tavern wench", things like that). I think the abuse of generic disguises might go down significantly as I think a lot of the time it's not used to conceal identity as much as express what the character is up to.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Hazard » Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:34 am

Duchess Says wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:46 am
Imagine if you were able to add a second line under your name with a short descriptor if you wished ("carrying lumber", "scroll merchant", "tavern wench", things like that). I think the abuse of generic disguises might go down significantly as I think a lot of the time it's not used to conceal identity as much as express what the character is up to.
That would be so much better than emoting it over and over every time a new person comes on screen.
I would love any sort of mechanic that allowed anything similar to that.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Void » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:39 am

Duchess Says wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:46 am
Imagine if you were able to add a second line under your name with a short descriptor if you wished ("carrying lumber", "scroll merchant", "tavern wench", things like that). I think the abuse of generic disguises might go down significantly as I think a lot of the time it's not used to conceal identity as much as express what the character is up to.
Yes, that would be an amazing thing to have. A "status line" of sorts.
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by LovelyLightningWitch » Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:09 pm

Duchess Says wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:46 am
Imagine if you were able to add a second line under your name with a short descriptor if you wished ("carrying lumber", "scroll merchant", "tavern wench", things like that). I think the abuse of generic disguises might go down significantly as I think a lot of the time it's not used to conceal identity as much as express what the character is up to.
For easier implementation, it could be something simple as a print to console on examine.

Kind of like "set pose" for Baystation forks of SS13.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Edens_Fall » Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:17 pm

I know I use generic alot to pop into the surface as it gets annoying to try and think of random names every visit.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Paint » Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:25 pm

I honestly don't see many characters using a generic disguise like, "Elf Hunter," very often overmuch right now. There -are- a few that stand out, though. I can say that when being revealed means your character concept might be dumpstered and you might have to pivot real hard, taking steps to avoid having people tie your character to x or y feels pretty important. And while I know that, due to the nature of winning, not everyone wins all the time, it's frustrating to think that you only have to screw up around the wrong people once and there goes months of RP scheme. Anyways...

Generic disguises seem more relevant in out in the wilderness and snooping situations where your character isn't necessarily trying to present a face, but trying to avoid showing any revealing details about who they are. If I see someone in a generic disguise on the road or something, that doesn't bother me. However, I really dislike the idea of a character hanging around in a city in a generic disguise they use all the time and socializing and being recognized by people, but nobody knows their name. (I think, depending on the situation, however, there's probably wiggle-room there.) I had a character on Skal who used a generic disguise whenever they were out in the wilds hunting for people. Even though the disguise was meant for brief encounters, I'd spend hours in it and it was specifically the same disguise.

As for characters with bad disguise/perform ratings, if they're dumb enough or stubborn enough, why would they know that they're bad at it unless someone straight up tells them? I have a character who regularly tries to pass themselves off as an alternate persona and it never works, then they grumble about it, then do it some more anyways.

With adding a line under your character's name to denote status or some status message that pops up in your chat log upon examination, I could see that being abused pretty quickly for OOC messages. It is an interesting idea, though.

Finally, since I think -someone- mentioned it, I'm going to defend the validity of characters that are staying in disguise more often than not. If a character is duplicitous in nature, they're probably going to want to make sure their real face and real name aren't publicly available, and have a pretty strong motivation to -keep- it buried. If they think they're duplicitous and they suck at it because they have a low bluff or perform, they'll try to do it, and suck at it. Point is, I really don't think there's anything wrong with trying to stay anonymous if it's what your character would do. Anyways, it can be a fun RP moment for someone to take their proverbial or literal mask off and tell you who they really are as a sign of trust. It can be even more fun if they find out they've been outed later, and have to figure out who, out of everyone they've confided in, betrayed them... Additionally, it makes sense to have different disguises for interfacing with different groups if you're trying to get up to some chicanery. If your disguise gets broken and someone recognizes you from somewhere else, they can choose whether to act on that knowledge or not regardless.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Skibbles » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:07 pm

Paint wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:25 pm
I'm going to defend the validity of characters that are staying in disguise more often than not.
I think the problem here arises in that it becomes an inversion when this is done. The disguise stops being a disguise, and the character's normal state is now the disguise. This only really applies to bluff/perform optimized characters.

Characters spending so much time in disguise, becoming recognized to many or even all characters in that capacity, can take off their disguise and in fact be better disguised without one.

That doesn't seem like the intention of the system, because you can't roll a spot check on someone's normal undisguised self and deduce they are in fact the mega famous guy who is very well known always in their disguise. This only really works for mega bluff characters but still it's just a strange side effect of the mechanic.

Ideally disguise inversion should lead to characters simply being renamed. To pick a good example might be Bat's Moira Krauss who eventually spent far more time disguised as Sydney Harrow, and thus just became Sydney Harrow instead. This makes much more sense for characters spending gratuitous time being their "Real Self".

I also wonder how much of this is tied to the piety system, as it seems an easy way stroll around scooping free piety. I'd bet most of the abuse lies here as a sort of minor exploit.
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Sincra » Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:30 pm

Disguise exists to facilitate subterfuge and intentional misdirection.
It is thusly countered by spot. Long term disguises take more investment for the following reason:
Being disguise broken may not matter on the first identity, but if broken on a second your real name, seen on the first, can be used to tie them together as a means of "You're the same beneath all that makeup/helmet/clothing".

-Edit, since I wanted to clarify a point:-
Breaking disguise of "Jim" and seeing Bob.
Later breaking "Fred" and seeing Bob.
This is more informative than,
Breaking long term "Jim" and seeing Bob.
Later breaking "Fred" and the real name is now Jim.
You have no real trace to the original and additionally, why would this second pair be the case if Jim the persona and appearance differed from the real Bob beneath?
-End of edit.-

Aside from the fact changing names throws a spanner in a few mechanical systems it is the above that makes me disagree on changing actual names to match a disguise name if used long term.

As it stands there is a clear DM ruling reminder under announcements that makes clear the expectations, and beyond that, as always, report breaches.
Last edited by Sincra on Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by a shrouded figure » Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:36 pm

Personally I think disguise is very important. Unfortunately, in my experience, I run into more people who metagame disguise / names than not, be it thru ignorance or just a desire to win. I would love to see a system implemented that mechanically disguises you to people until you reveal your name or are identified / introduced by someone who you have revealed your name to. Personally it’s always a bit jarring when people identify my character by “oh your name was on the shop” … was my picture? Lol

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by chris a gogo » Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:20 pm

I don't have strong feeling about the disguise issue.
The only minor gripe i have is when you see someone constantly in disguise and break it.
I mean how are you supposed to react to these characters that are in a constant state of concealing the truth. WYSIWYG okay so I break Joe the bear strangler McGee's disguise to see it's really Steve.
But the fact is he's always been known as Joe so do I now beat the crap out of Steve and demand to know where Joe is lock them up charge them with the murder of joe and have them executed or banished.
I mean they are wearing Joe's armour carrying his weapons and belongings living in his house would be fair to say they murdered and replaced them.

But the thing is they haven't done any of that they have just used the system to stop scrying so really how dull is the truth.

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