2 weeks of pure rogue;

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Ork
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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Ork » Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:11 pm

Reallylongunneededplayername wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:24 am
Ork wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:46 am
Seeing how this has changed to an XP discussion:

As a casual player, the XP gain for me is just enough to keep me interested in my character's progression and excited for what lay on the horizon. I can see how people that can play 4-5+ hours a day would level ridiculously fast if I'm playing maybe .5 - 1 hour a day tops and feeling good about the progression.
Half a hour to one hour, These are things I do not get at all, How do you even play Arelith like that when a simple roleplay conversation could fill such time slot completely?
Its just enough time to pvp.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Drowboy » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:03 pm

Way less worried about the people with an hour or two here and there to play leveling quickly than I am about people I never see logged off tbh. Diminishing returns for infinite free time might not be a horrible idea, if we're trying to find a middle ground between casuals progressing and neets not dominating regardless.
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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by ZeroPointEnergy » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:17 pm

Kenji wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:30 am
Nerf writ xp, got it.
remove writs please.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Zavandar » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:18 pm

yeah let's bring down the xp of people with a lot of free time, that would be more fair
Intelligence is too important

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:46 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:18 pm
yeah let's bring down the xp of people with a lot of free time, that would be more fair
Fair to who? To Ork and myself maybe but it would have implication on the server's general activity as a whole. I rather see more people online than less, because it's more opportunities to interact with players and not play single player in a dungeon.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Zavandar » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:49 pm

oh so we should keep leveling fast then maybe
Intelligence is too important

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Void » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:51 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:18 pm
yeah let's bring down the xp of people with a lot of free time, that would be more fair
It would make sense to have a "game mode" like I mentioned before. But that would be a feature request and suggestion box is currently closed.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:52 pm

I personally think leveling should be slower to everyone and if there were diminished returns the longer you play over a period of time, I would probably not feel it much with my playing times. The problem I'm trying to explain is that the leveling speed can be fast or slow, but there's also gearing speed which can be fast or slow. If there's an exp cap on how much you get over a week, then people will just say "okay, then I'll just go grind gold now where it's most efficient and care about exp again when I should" and ultimately it would change nothing. Play time investment still = progress.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Zavandar
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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Zavandar » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:56 pm

Void wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:51 pm
Zavandar wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:18 pm
yeah let's bring down the xp of people with a lot of free time, that would be more fair
It would make sense to have a "game mode" like I mentioned before. But that would be a feature request and suggestion box is currently closed.
idk what a game mode is but it seems like the higher turnover helps keep dungeons not empty since making a new character isn't such a daunting task

also regarding higher turnover, that turns into more awards, so maybe we should also increase how much gold you need to get extra percent on your award rolls. Maybe instead of 100k per 1% it's 1 million instead
Intelligence is too important

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Void » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:59 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:56 pm
Void wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:51 pm
Zavandar wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:18 pm
yeah let's bring down the xp of people with a lot of free time, that would be more fair
It would make sense to have a "game mode" like I mentioned before. But that would be a feature request and suggestion box is currently closed.
idk what a game mode is but it seems like the higher turnover helps keep dungeons not empty since making a new character isn't such a daunting task

also regarding higher turnover, that turns into more awards, so maybe we should also increase how much gold you need to get extra percent on your award rolls. Maybe instead of 100k per 1% it's 1 million instead
I mentioned it earlier: you pick how you want to play, and that affects your leveling speed. Similar to mark of despair.
Possible options could include:

* slashed xp for everything, no writs, or writs go to axp, slashed axp drip (for people who want to take it slow).
* No combat xp (or combat xp goes to axp), only writs, no overleveled penalty on writs.
* Normal combat xp, writs go to adventure xp or no writs.

You pick it once, then you can't change it. If you have limited time, you'll probably go for "no combat xp, but writs". If you have unlimited time, you could go "no writs, but combat xp". And so on.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Arienette » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:00 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:57 am
Hazard wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:44 am
Agreed that leveling is far too easy.
+1 from me too.

Leveling has been a sad joke lately.

Rogues are like bad Loremasters at this point.

And I salute the OP for bringing up the absurd prices on rare ingredients. They used to be much cheaper a year or two ago. I think the problem lays in that factions drown in coin (and legally transfer bank accounts between characters without actually breaking any server rule) and can afford to pay those absurd prices, so the prices just go higher and higher because SOMEONE will eventually pay it. It's what you get when 10-20% of the living characters in the world have access to capped out bank accounts and can pay these prices for themselves and their recruits/buddies.

I think that's all I got for now. This is a good thread.
I have gotten over the absurd prices you often see for rare ingredients in shops.

It’s not uncommon to see a shop with 6 of XYZ in stock for twice the price of the shops literally right next to them. I’m not sure what those players are going for but they must be getting something out of it lol.

I have found it fairly easy to buy/sell/trade for these items among non-shopkeeper characters for much more reasonable prices. It takes a bit longer than buying it from a shop but asking a group of PCs “does anyone have a Mithril dust/whatever?” seems to work well enough in the medium-term.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:56 pm
making a new character isn't such a daunting task
Why is it a task at all? Why RPing at lvl 3 is a task? This is exactly the kind of mind-set I'm criticizing in this thread. The mentality that the story starts after you finish the 'chore' of grinding. I think this would be less of a problem and this mindset (that we probably all share to some degree or another) would just fade away on it's own if reaching 30 wasnt a mandatory requirement in this server. Before writs were a thing, you'd see characters in all spectrum of levels participating in deep and large scale plots and take leading roles. You'd also see mid-game gear actually being useful. This is all gone.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Zavandar » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:03 pm

I don't like that idea just don't do writs if you don't want to

Also @astral you can ask why it's daunting or not but it is undoubtedly a huge deterrent for a lot of people and a lot of builds just aren't fun to play until later, regardless of rp

I agree that midbie gear isn't that useful but that can be fixed by tuning costs to make them down, not making it harder to level

Also you still see people at all levels
Intelligence is too important

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Void » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:10 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 pm
would just fade away on it's own if reaching 30 wasnt a mandatory requirement in this server.
It is not mandatory, though. You're free to play a commoner too. Those are very valuable and gain nice bonuses, despite gaining zero combat and writ xp.

Wasn't someone saying "be the change you want to see" before?

Regarding gear, "top tier" gear at the moment is a chore that is not worth pursuing due to high prices of ingridients. I usually end up with enchanted gear (meaning +1 top), or with something that is very far from top tier.

I would personally prefer to have a more open dweomercrafting system that would allow me to craft something comparable to what is present in the middle of the crafting table.

Also, like Zavander said, people of all levels are still strongly present on the server.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:12 pm

I appreciate and value your opinions and will really take them in. I'm not going to derail this thread into explaining about all the unfun aspects of holding level ups or not picking writs, but they're unfun aspects. I promise. I rest my case.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Eyeliner » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:55 pm

I just think faster leveling has more appeal now than ever. The server is old and the game is old and most players have played dozens of characters now so the appeal of lower level exploration or making the most of what you get along the way is diminished. Classes are added and go through drastic changes regularly so there’s more a feeling of impermanence with characters than ever as well, plus everyone wants to try whatever is novel or updated. The PGCC also allows us to experience our characters at max level so at least with me it adds to my impatience wanting to get to that point in the real game.

I understand the appeal of wanting everyone to slow down too. I think it’s more romantic than practical though, but that’s just my opinion. I mean you can force people to slow down but you can't make them linger and enjoy the experience of the low and mid levels if they aren't interested. I personally am just not interested and would rather play a succession of fully capable adventurers instead of leveling fewer from baby to epic at a slow pace. But that probably comes with getting older on my part too, I'm not a teenager like I was when I first played Arelith in 2008 and I think I'm much more creative now and still have things to offer but I can't have the immersive full time experience I once did.

With shorter time to play I appreciate being able to spend my 10-20 hours doing more than leveling which seemed to be all I was doing in the last few years— playing catchup and building characters for future possibilities a lot more than being in the now, which I think fast leveling is affording me to do a lot more lately. YMMV I suppose.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:39 pm

In a sense I'm left genuinely curious about where do people draw the line on the scale between just starting at lvl 30 and a deep 2008 fully immersive experience of character development. I can only say I'm glad exp rewards just got nerfed and I hope that when I start a new character I'll be like "mmm! this is actually slower than I expected. Nice!".
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Void » Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:54 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:39 pm
In a sense I'm left genuinely curious about where do people draw the line on the scale between just starting at lvl 30 and a deep 2008 fully immersive experience of character development. I can only say I'm glad exp rewards just got nerfed and I hope that when I start a new character I'll be like "mmm! this is actually slower than I expected. Nice!".
Current experience is the immersive one for me.

Basically, for me the nice character development speed is that of a single player game. Because in case of single player game you sink 120 hours into it, then you're done and shelve it. In case of arelith once your'e done, you can start over and experience a different story, different characters, although backdrop will be very similar, and some people will remain from the previous playthrough. It is sort of very replayable adventure, with infinite number of game plus attempts, where some of the world state transfers over, but not your equipment or achievements.

The "super slow xp rate" thing leads to exhaustation and grinding. Slow xp rate wants you to live in the world 24/7, and become an npc people can interact with. This stuff is very unhealthy, can frustrate the heck out of people, pushes people closer to grinding, and grinding results in severe burnouts. The approach wants you to live in the world, but you can't, because you live in the reality and have obligations there.

So the fast speed is a compromise between living in the world and having obligations in reality.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Hazard » Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:58 am

As one of the above mentioned "no-lifers" and "neets" (at least, I am a seasonal no-lifer/neet, thanks to my skillsets and work I can work some parts of the year and not work at all other parts)... I wouldn't be opposed to diminishing returns or something similar to slow down leveling for those of us who have a lot of playtime, if it also slows down the leveling of casual players proportionately too. I don't care about leveling fast, and I think it would encourage more people to roleplay at their level and just enjoy the server and not rush through it, rather than being silent grind machines until 30 .. which isn't entirely their fault with how quick and easy the leveling is at the moment. I used to have to actually try to get 30 in less than 2 weeks, now it just happens without any deliberate effort, even if I have very limited playtime.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:36 am

Hazard wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:58 am
As one of the above mentioned "no-lifers" and "neets" (at least, I am a seasonal no-lifer/neet, thanks to my skillsets and work I can work some parts of the year and not work at all other parts)... I wouldn't be opposed to diminishing returns or something similar to slow down leveling for those of us who have a lot of playtime, if it also slows down the leveling of casual players proportionately too. I don't care about leveling fast, and I think it would encourage more people to roleplay at their level and just enjoy the server and not rush through it, rather than being silent grind machines until 30 .. which isn't entirely their fault with how quick and easy the leveling is at the moment. I used to have to actually try to get 30 in less than 2 weeks, now it just happens without any deliberate effort, even if I have very limited playtime.
Just read the weight of your last sentence on light of someone who takes 2 years to get their pre writ.
Like over past month or so im not lvl 20 even.

Now my playtimes are REALLY low and I shouldn't be the target average as i make a casual seem/feel like a full timer. But if the difference between you trying or nor trying to reach lvl 30 in 2 weeks is cost of sone players bot feeling they have to sell every minute of theirbfree time to barely be on Arelith. Then yeah, I think the choice might be clearer.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:47 am

Reallylongunneededplayername wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:24 am
Ork wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:46 am
Seeing how this has changed to an XP discussion:

As a casual player, the XP gain for me is just enough to keep me interested in my character's progression and excited for what lay on the horizon. I can see how people that can play 4-5+ hours a day would level ridiculously fast if I'm playing maybe .5 - 1 hour a day tops and feeling good about the progression.
Half a hour to one hour, These are things I do not get at all, How do you even play Arelith like that when a simple roleplay conversation could fill such time slot completely?
2 hrs top is what my average week play looks like lol. And that's literally all I do sometimes within a whole week sometimes is a couple hours of rp.


My version of going hard when i was young is casual to a lot of people. In ye old arelith days id lose more my whole week's worth of xp in one death (rpr 20, no grind, low play time, minimum mechanics knowledge life). I quit arelith for a decade for obv reasons back then.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Hazard » Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:25 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:36 am
Hazard wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:58 am
As one of the above mentioned "no-lifers" and "neets" (at least, I am a seasonal no-lifer/neet, thanks to my skillsets and work I can work some parts of the year and not work at all other parts)... I wouldn't be opposed to diminishing returns or something similar to slow down leveling for those of us who have a lot of playtime, if it also slows down the leveling of casual players proportionately too. I don't care about leveling fast, and I think it would encourage more people to roleplay at their level and just enjoy the server and not rush through it, rather than being silent grind machines until 30 .. which isn't entirely their fault with how quick and easy the leveling is at the moment. I used to have to actually try to get 30 in less than 2 weeks, now it just happens without any deliberate effort, even if I have very limited playtime.
Just read the weight of your last sentence on light of someone who takes 2 years to get their pre writ.
Like over past month or so im not lvl 20 even.

Now my playtimes are REALLY low and I shouldn't be the target average as i make a casual seem/feel like a full timer. But if the difference between you trying or nor trying to reach lvl 30 in 2 weeks is cost of sone players bot feeling they have to sell every minute of theirbfree time to barely be on Arelith. Then yeah, I think the choice might be clearer.
Sorry. I don't understand what you're trying to say.
I'm agreeing that diminishing returns could be a good thing to slow down people like me who play in big binge-bursts at a time.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by CNS » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:15 am

Im someone who can usually throw in a few (2-4) hours a day about 5 days a week. I'd expect that to be a fairly normal benchmark.

Some might do more, some might do less but I feel what I put in is roughly an average active player.

The old old system - writs stop at 20 the one we had for years - was difficult and not especially fun. The first few times through was cool, it's a new server to explore and everything is fresh. Then your new characters are retracing old steps, over and over and over and over. You've done all the writs in every area, you've visited every dungeon. This isn't a complaint, arelith is huge and full of variety, but it's also not infinate and not really the main draw of the world.

The more characters I played the more I found myself grinding to get through it. I don't want to always play a level 11 fighter learning their trade, I want to be a part of the world and just get the mechanical side done so that's out the way. The character I want to play for me exists in the spectrum of other players, it's growth and change is tied to other players. Bumkum about growing with mechanics is just that to me, bumkum, dull and uninspired.

The middle system, the one we had recently before the last changes felt perfect to me. It created a world where you could log in, do some writs, make progress and feel free to use the rest of your time to RP and do the things we actually play on arelith to do. Despite being faster, it actually promotes more lower level RP (outside dungeons) because you feel you have time to do it - your progress from writs is steady and material so you don't have to grind - and most importantly it seems many others felt that way cause you would see more people engaging at different levels in things beyond "hey wanna go hunt X"

The current system seems like an awkward compromise. Especially in the UD where compared to the surface there are hardly any writs. I'd much rather a return to the middle system because that seems to best promoted the type of game and world we are here to experience. If we went back to the old system I'd probably stop playing, I'm an adult with a real life now, I haven't got time for that. I come to arelith for the other players not the dungeons (however good they may be).

Also, if you want to go slow. That is 100% in your control. You can go as slow as you want (I guess the RPR/adventure exp is the minimum speed). You are in control. Please don't force your style of play on me because of some memory you have or ideal you want to push.


Last point edited in: the server likes character turn over, or at least purports to. The single biggest thing to promoting turn over is lowering the cost to getting another character up and running.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Void » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:38 am

Hazard wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:58 am
I wouldn't be opposed to diminishing returns or something similar to slow down leveling for those of us who have a lot of playtime,
You already have diminishing returns. They're built in. Each level takes more xp to reach, and getting xp becomes harder over time, as you move onto more difficult monsters. Those are diminishing returns.
CNS wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:15 am
<snip>
Agree with everything said.

Lower xp repeatable writs felt like a hamster wheel. Currently it feels like you're moving somewhere meaningful. Even with the recent overleveled xp nerf.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: 2 weeks of pure rogue;

Post by Hazard » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:48 am

Void wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:38 am
Hazard wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:58 am
I wouldn't be opposed to diminishing returns or something similar to slow down leveling for those of us who have a lot of playtime,
You already have diminishing returns. They're built in. Each level takes more xp to reach, and getting xp becomes harder over time, as you move onto more difficult monsters. Those are diminishing returns.
I was responding to ..
Drowboy wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:03 pm
Way less worried about the people with an hour or two here and there to play leveling quickly than I am about people I never see logged off tbh. Diminishing returns for infinite free time might not be a horrible idea, if we're trying to find a middle ground between casuals progressing and neets not dominating regardless.

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