Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

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Edens_Fall
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Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:06 pm

This particular topic was brought up during Spyre's stream yesterday and suggested a post be made so . . . Here we go.

With the changes to Turn Undead, Vampire PCs are faced with a instant defeat at the click of a button from a cleric PC with high lvls in the class. Worse, is the CL is added to the duration, allowing plenty of time to enjoy one's inability to act in any form.

There is no counter to this other then -pray which the the cleric can counter by clicking the button a second time. For all intents and purposes it's a instant win against any undead PC in PvP.

It was suggested this could be changed to a vs Will Save when Turn Undead is used againist a PC. That or increasing the Undead PC turn resistance?

Eitherway, some sort of correction would be appreciated. As it stands, if you were to face a high level cleric in battle as an Undead PC you only choice is to go make coffee as you as slain at whatever pace they decide is warranted for the situation.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Dreams » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:30 pm

Seems balanced to me? This is one of the drawbacks of being undead. You should absolutely fear high-level priests that have the power to turn undead.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by MalKalz » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:37 pm

Dreams wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:30 pm
Seems balanced to me? This is one of the drawbacks of being undead. You should absolutely fear high-level priests that have the power to turn undead.
32 rounds of fear is not balanced. It is pretty much this: get feared, wait till you load the fugue and then respawn.

When tweaks were made, it was likely that a logic step was missed for checking on if the Undead is a PC. It should likely include a will-save roll.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Void » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:40 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:06 pm
With the changes to Turn Undead, Vampire PCs are faced with a instant defeat at the click of a button from a cleric PC with high lvls in the class. Worse, is the CL is added to the duration, allowing plenty of time to enjoy one's inability to act in any form.
Looking through description of the original Turn UNdead, level 30 cleric would make a level 30 vampire flee for 35 rounds upon success. That's 3.5 minutes, which is more than enough to murder the vampire.

What changed?

P.S. If it is fear, wouldn't clarity/mind blank work against it?
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by MalKalz » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:43 pm

Void wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:40 pm
Edens_Fall wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:06 pm
With the changes to Turn Undead, Vampire PCs are faced with a instant defeat at the click of a button from a cleric PC with high lvls in the class. Worse, is the CL is added to the duration, allowing plenty of time to enjoy one's inability to act in any form.
Looking through description of the original Turn UNdead, level 30 cleric would make a level 30 vampire flee for 35 rounds upon success. That's 3.5 minutes, which is more than enough to murder the vampire.

What changed?

P.S. If it is fear, wouldn't clarity/mind blank work against it?
You could pray it off. You could also use clarity / mind blank (but those can be stripped from you). Even with a pray, all the cleric has to do is hit the button again and you are once again in the same situation.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Void » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:51 pm

Spyre wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:43 pm

You could pray it off. You could also use clarity / mind blank (but those can be stripped from you). Even with a pray, all the cleric has to do is hit the button again and you are once again in the same situation.
I have no strong opinion on the topic, but the situation sort of reminds me of "Sneak vs Spot Cleric" or "Sneak vs Dragon". Basically if a character invests into sneaking, clerics with spot investment and things with permanent true seeing would be natural enemies. And the usual idea is to never go anywhere close to those kinds of dangers.

I do agree that high duration mental states are annoying. However, there are npc monsters with those.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:33 pm

I tried a few tests in the PGCC and clarity/mind blank didn't offer any protection. I'm not really sure what Turn Rolls against as the combat log doesn't list it.

But yes the duration is atrocious. Being undead or not, no one should suffer that.

I recall the issue folks had with being knocked down and unable to resist it againist certain builds and that only lasts but a moment. One can imagine the horror of being turned regardless of what you do and then KB without a chance to run, fight, anything. Vampires have plenty of weaknesses, the spam holy grenade is my favorite so far, but at least one can try and run away from that.

Builds and races aside PvP should allow for, at the minimum, each party to have a chance I would think.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Aren » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:35 pm

Spyre wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:43 pm
Void wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:40 pm
Edens_Fall wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:06 pm
With the changes to Turn Undead, Vampire PCs are faced with a instant defeat at the click of a button from a cleric PC with high lvls in the class. Worse, is the CL is added to the duration, allowing plenty of time to enjoy one's inability to act in any form.
Looking through description of the original Turn UNdead, level 30 cleric would make a level 30 vampire flee for 35 rounds upon success. That's 3.5 minutes, which is more than enough to murder the vampire.

What changed?

P.S. If it is fear, wouldn't clarity/mind blank work against it?
You could pray it off. You could also use clarity / mind blank (but those can be stripped from you). Even with a pray, all the cleric has to do is hit the button again and you are once again in the same situation.
Unless something changed recently, you couldn't pray off the turn undead fear. Clarity / Mindblank does nothing to protect against it. You are effectively put in the corner for minutes at a time, just waiting for it to wear off. To top it off, every NPC in the game could identify you as undead by a glance and would absolutely spam turn undead until they ran out of uses. It gets really old, really fast.

I think it makes sense for the turn check to be an opposed will save against sentient undead (player characters).

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Aren » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:37 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:33 pm
I tried a few tests in the PGCC and clarity/mind blank didn't offer any protection. I'm not really sure what Turn Rolls against as the combat log doesn't list it.

But yes the duration is atrocious. Being undead or not, no one should suffer that.

I recall the issue folks had with being knocked down and unable to resist it againist certain builds and that only lasts but a moment. One can imagine the horror of being turned regardless of what you do and then KB without a chance to run, fight, anything. Vampires have plenty of weaknesses, the spam holy grenade is my favorite so far, but at least one can try and run away from that.

Builds and races aside PvP should allow for, at the minimum, each party to have a chance I would think.
Ah yes, the holy grenade with reflex save that even when made, does nothing to alleviate the damage of the grenade.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by -XXX- » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:44 pm

Void wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:51 pm
I have no strong opinion on the topic, but the situation sort of reminds me of "Sneak vs Spot Cleric" or "Sneak vs Dragon". Basically if a character invests into sneaking, clerics with spot investment and things with permanent true seeing would be natural enemies. And the usual idea is to never go anywhere close to those kinds of dangers.

I do agree that high duration mental states are annoying. However, there are npc monsters with those.
That's a very poor comparison.

There is a big difference between having a hard counter to a skill that would have confered an advantage otherwise, and an ability that instantly causes a character to be at the mercy of its user. BTW, vanilla NWN turning trumps clarity/mind blank and even cannot be removed with restoration effects (-prays confers greater resto...), so unless that has been changed the only counterplay available might be equipping a peridan sword in advance.

Keep in mind that this does not necessarily have to represent instant death - the turner can subject the vampire player to up to 30 RL minutes (!) of monologueing and ~then~ kill their character.
Last edited by -XXX- on Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Void » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:50 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:33 pm
I tried a few tests in the PGCC and clarity/mind blank didn't offer any protection. I'm not really sure what Turn Rolls against as the combat log doesn't list it.
Default implementation - from the original game - doesn't roll against anything. The cleric roll a charisma based check and that check affects the highest level of undead the cleric is allowed to turn. (+-4). The cleric scares undead by existing, pretty much.

So, a level 30 cleric rolling 10 on the check will turn level 30 undead. The only mechanical way to defend from that would be to surround him with an undead swarm that has more undead than the cleric can turn, and stay far away, or at least beyond the 20 meter turning bubble. However, a cleric of sun domain can turn 18+cha mod undead at once.

However, wiki lists following thing:
The duration of the forced flight or awe is 5 rounds, plus one round per the turner's level. If the turned target is a Player Character, the duration is 5 rounds, plus one round per 7 turner's applicable levels.
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Turn_Undead

That's reduction compared to original nwn, where it was the same for PC and non-PC undead.

---------
-XXX- wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:44 pm
That's a very poor comparison.

There is a big difference between having a hard counter to a skill
It is exact same thing, if the sneak is sneak specialist with low combat ability, and sneaking is countered by a single item/scroll/spell. But that's discussion for another place, I think.
Last edited by Void on Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Ork » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:56 pm

I think this is a reasonable check on the vampires' power. Don't mess with clerics. A reasonable fear supported by mechanics.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Sombricimos » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:58 pm

[/quote]

Ah yes, the holy grenade with reflex save that even when made, does nothing to alleviate the damage of the grenade.
[/quote]

The grenade's deals damage and slows movement, the reflex checks is used only (to my knowledge) to counter the slow, not the damage

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Void » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:02 pm

By the way, regarding cleric....

Turn check adjusts cleric level for turning purposes by +-4, and is modified by a charisma modifier.

So with +0 cha and no sun domain, the level 30 cleric will have 55% chance of turning a level 30 vampire, and not 100%.
For 100% he'd need +4 charisma mod. Or +3 mod and sun domain.

But the smart idea would likley be to never get close to anything that smells like a cleric.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Aren » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:04 pm

Sombricimos wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:58 pm
Ah yes, the holy grenade with reflex save that even when made, does nothing to alleviate the damage of the grenade.
[/quote]

The grenade's deals damage and slows movement, the reflex checks is used only (to my knowledge) to counter the slow, not the damage
[/quote]

Correct.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Nitro » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:09 pm

Ork wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:56 pm
I think this is a reasonable check on the vampires' power. Don't mess with clerics. A reasonable fear supported by mechanics.
The vampires don't know how good they have it, Rakshasas die instantly with no save when someone plinks them with a blessed bolt!

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by -XXX- » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:14 pm

Void wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:50 pm
It is exact same thing, if the sneak is sneak specialist with low combat ability, and sneaking is countered by a single item/scroll/spell. But that's discussion for another place, I think.
This is simply a false statement. There's a number of good DEX builds that can be built in multiple ways, but none of them rely solely on stealth.

Still, let's pretend for a moment that what you claim was true (for the sake of the argument) - that item/scroll/spell would have been merely removing the sneaks advantage, while leaving them with a window of opportunity to retreat.
That's NOT the same as instantly stripping the player of any control over their character for an excessively long time period simply because they picked the wrong subrace during character creation.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Watchful Glare » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:19 pm

Nitro wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:09 pm
Ork wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:56 pm
I think this is a reasonable check on the vampires' power. Don't mess with clerics. A reasonable fear supported by mechanics.
The vampires don't know how good they have it, Rakshasas die instantly with no save when someone plinks them with a blessed bolt!
"We shot him with a blessed bolt through the heart and he died instantly, he was a Rakshasa"

"But wouldn't a bolt throught the heart kill anyone regardless?"

"Well yes, but he was a Rakshasa"

"But how do you know?"

"Because he died from a blessed bolt!"

Image
Biz here was a constant subliminal hum, and death the accepted punishment for laziness, carelessness, lack of grace, the failure to heed the demands of an intricate protocol.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:20 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:14 pm
Void wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:50 pm
It is exact same thing, if the sneak is sneak specialist with low combat ability, and sneaking is countered by a single item/scroll/spell. But that's discussion for another place, I think.
This is simply a false statement. There's a number of good DEX builds that can be built in multiple ways, but none of them rely solely on stealth.

Still, let's pretend for a moment that what you claim was true (for the sake of the argument) - that item/scroll/spell would have been merely removing the sneaks advantage, while leaving them with a window of opportunity to retreat.
That's NOT the same as instantly stripping the player of any control over their character for an excessively long time period simply because they picked the wrong subrace during character creation.
+1

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by CNS » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:27 pm

Probably best to make it no save and something like 2 rounds? That's still really bad for a PC to face into and makes clerics something to be feared for vampires, as it should be, but isn't say bye bye to control for enough time to go take a leak and make a coffee.

An alternative is keeping the duration but having it work something like 25% of the time on a 30 vamp. Clicking button is still an action it's not costless.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Void » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:29 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:14 pm
There's a number of good DEX builds that can be built in multiple ways, but none
Not the right time, and not the right place.
-XXX- wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:14 pm
That's NOT the same as instantly stripping the player of any control over their character for an excessively long time period
There's ton of npc monsters that spam mind affecting spells, which will render you helpless for excessive amount of time, because you've picked a class without fear immunity or high will saves. The effects often can be prayed off, but the enemy can often just apply it again. Being an undead also brings advantages, namely immunity to crits and sneak attacks, which are hard to achieve otherwise. So that "stripping of control" already happens.

Also, imps are subject to turning as well, though they're less popular and that requires planar turning.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by charmcaster » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:49 pm

Excessive crowd control with no counter play possible is simply bad design and nothing else. If you could prepare for it or at least get a roll, that's one thing, but simply having it work all the time, every time, seems more of an oversight than a deliberate choice.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Hazard » Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:01 pm

Sounds like there'll be a will save, so all good.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by -XXX- » Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:36 pm

Void wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:29 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:14 pm
That's NOT the same as instantly stripping the player of any control over their character for an excessively long time period
There's ton of npc monsters that spam mind affecting spells, which will render you helpless for excessive amount of time, because you've picked a class without fear immunity or high will saves. The effects often can be prayed off, but the enemy can often just apply it again. Being an undead also brings advantages, namely immunity to crits and sneak attacks, which are hard to achieve otherwise. So that "stripping of control" already happens.

Also, imps are subject to turning as well, though they're less popular and that requires planar turning.
Firstly, other crowd control effects have a wide range of available counterplay, this one doesn't.

Secondly, don't mix PvE into this. Monster AI is very limited when compared to actual players. Furthermore, even characters with high saves should be using wards during PvE because rolling a hard 1 is a thing (actually, Arelith's PvE content is often designed to fish for those).


Finally, I really do not believe that

Situation A:
1) Vampire PC wards up and prepares
2) PvP ensues
3) Cleric PC : *turns undead*
4) GG

...can be compared to...

Situation B:
1) PC doesn't ward
2) PC walks into a dungeon stealthed
3) NPC spots PC
4) PC doesn't retreat
5) PC doesn't ward
6) NPC hits PC with a CC effect
7) PC hits -prays
8) PC doesn't retreat
9) PC doesn't ward
10) NPC hits PC with a CC effect
11) GG

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Void » Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:48 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:36 pm
available counterplay, this one doesn't.
How about wand or potion of polymorph self?
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