In game public message boards and criers can go

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UilliamNebel
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In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by UilliamNebel » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:42 pm

I've seen the bleed over of social media flame war mentality, and think it is just no longer a worthwhile addition to Arelith that builds immersion. They are meta tools now at best.

Void
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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by Void » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:54 pm

UilliamNebel wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:42 pm
I've seen the bleed over of social media flame war mentality, and think it is just no longer a worthwhile addition to Arelith that builds immersion. They are meta tools now at best.
The message boards are necessary, as without them there's no way to coordinate anything via IC means.

And if they are removed, then people will just spam fixtures instead.

I do agree that it is kinda odd to arrive at the highly hostile environment, find a message board there, and the latest message is left yesterday, complaining about RUDE elf encountered in a surfacer town. Then the same message is plastered over ever board in the world. This is very jarring.

But removing them is not a good idea, as they're very necessary for other things.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by Emotionaloverload » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:55 pm

Message boards are vital to the game.

If you come across something questionable, inappropriate, out of setting or against the rules on the boards or crier, please report it to the DMs.


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UilliamNebel
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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by UilliamNebel » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:59 pm

Void wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:54 pm
But removing them is not a good idea, as they're very necessary for other things.
I can understand that. And private boards, at places seen over by players, I'd say let be. But the public ones are having their very utility, used in a negative. It would absolutely be an issue for coordinating in game. That said, I hardly see any coordinating breaking the surface, from under what they are mostly being used for which is a greater negative I'd say.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by Void » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:04 pm

UilliamNebel wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:59 pm
Void wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:54 pm
But removing them is not a good idea, as they're very necessary for other things.
I can understand that. And private boards, at places seen over by players, I'd say let be. But the public ones are having their very utility, used in a negative. It would absolutely be an issue for coordinating in game.
If you disable a public board, people will just place a crafted one in its place. Nothing is going to change.
UilliamNebel wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:59 pm
That said, I hardly see any coordinating breaking the surface, from under what they are mostly being used for which is a greater negative I'd say.
"Arcane tower is going to hold a language lesson at the date XYZ..."

As for people who use the board to spam, trying to kill them all is a fun angle to pursue.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by Ork » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:43 pm

UilliamNebel wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:59 pm
Void wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:54 pm
But removing them is not a good idea, as they're very necessary for other things.
I can understand that. And private boards, at places seen over by players, I'd say let be. But the public ones are having their very utility, used in a negative. It would absolutely be an issue for coordinating in game. That said, I hardly see any coordinating breaking the surface, from under what they are mostly being used for which is a greater negative I'd say.
If people are using boards and criers for OOC intent (happens a lot more frequently it seems), that should be reported to the DMs. I do think incidents of OOC need to be harshly punitized because we're seeing this happen more and more. However, if "used in the negative" means that "my character or someone elses character I care about is getting criticized" that's wholly within the realm of in-character.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by ZeroPointEnergy » Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:00 pm

Hiding message boards doesn't hide the fact that characters on the surface are the way they are. They'll find new and interesting ways to let everyone know how you're secretly an assassin.

UilliamNebel
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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by UilliamNebel » Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:20 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:43 pm
..if "used in the negative" means that "my character or someone elses character I care about is getting criticized" that's wholly within the realm of in-character.
I'd say it is well beyond that, and why I said they are meta at best now. The amount of IC lying, with a dose of 'My character actually recalls it this way..' going on, is increasingly weaponized meta. Firsthand seen character A accused of Y in character on a board, and quickly it turns into there now being IC evidence and firsthand witness accounts of things that never happened in RP to the detriment of another character, and by proxy another player. Public boards, as used now, have a lot of meta for player objective ends taking place, including objectives targeted at other players, hence the social media reference. And if it is reported to DMs, there often is no clear rule break or the like to address the matter.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:22 pm

I have heard a few complaints surrounding 'annonymous messages' on public message boards. being something that really upsets people.

I'm not entirely convinced this is something that needs 'fixing' but...

Suggestion - Settlement leaders (or those who they give the power to) can be given the power to remove annonymouse/fake named messages from public boards.

Signed messages cannot be removed however.

Again i'm not entirely convinced that this is needed, but... what do people think?

Private boards would remain unchanged
This too shall pass.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:45 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:22 pm
I have heard a few complaints surrounding 'annonymous messages' on public message boards. being something that really upsets people.

I'm not entirely convinced this is something that needs 'fixing' but...

Suggestion - Settlement leaders (or those who they give the power to) can be given the power to remove annonymouse/fake named messages from public boards.

Signed messages cannot be removed however.

Again i'm not entirely convinced that this is needed, but... what do people think?

Private boards would remain unchanged
Not wholly wise, as it now allows settlement leaders to more thoroughly single out individual characters and might make it standard IC practice to treat disguised signatures as being fake.

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Zavandar
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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by Zavandar » Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:57 pm

There's nothing wrong the the current arrangement. Treat it IC. Report stuff you think is meta.
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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:00 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:22 pm
I have heard a few complaints surrounding 'annonymous messages' on public message boards. being something that really upsets people.

I'm not entirely convinced this is something that needs 'fixing' but...

Suggestion - Settlement leaders (or those who they give the power to) can be given the power to remove annonymouse/fake named messages from public boards.

Signed messages cannot be removed however.

Again i'm not entirely convinced that this is needed, but... what do people think?

Private boards would remain unchanged
I'm against this. I think anonymous messages are interesting. While there's a lot of libel, there's also some legitimate criticism that comes up against people who are known for retaliation. If there's a corrupt government, players should be able to anonymously call them out without the government being able to remove all of the messages.

It also shuts down avenues of RP, trying to catch people who are posting them. That's the sort of RP I'm interested in. There's a level of risk in posting messages, and people ought to try and catch those responsible. There shouldn't be a win button that shuts down avenues for shady or underworld RP.

I think people should just grow thicker skins and deal with it IC. Hire detectives, denounce it, do whatever. But removing it just shuts down RP possibilities.

I'd rather see town criers go away before anonymous messages, it's annoying standing somewhere and having text spam. Nobody has to click the message board though.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by Void » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:12 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:22 pm
Again i'm not entirely convinced that this is needed, but... what do people think?
I think this is not needed.

Settlement leaders can already place a PC guard next to a board to prevent people from posting random stuff, though. Board interaction requires breaking of stealth. So when somebody posts some nonsense, they're next to the board.

So, basically, it would be probably the best if anonymous messages remained as they are now.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by Skibbles » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:21 pm

I've had a character be targeted, many years ago, by relentless anonymous messages and barely concealed anger at things I was doing in game.

However I still support the current system as it is. These things, which are frustrating sometimes, need to be in the game. They are tools that are used correctly far more than they are used incorrectly. It is just the latter that is far more visible.

Public news boards is the first thing I check when I'm away for a few days because, as even with slander and weird goofy stuff to sort through, you can quickly get a fast idea of what's going on and even an assortment of plot hooks to catch up with recent events.

As always is the mantra for these threads: Report things that are glaringly against the rules.
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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:27 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:21 pm
you can quickly get a fast idea of what's going on and even an assortment of plot hooks to catch up with recent events.
Even the libel is good for that, it gives you an idea of what (a few) people are angry about. The libel is and of itself a plot hook that people can go and investigate or ask others about.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by stoneheart- » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:29 pm

What an awful take. Message boards should absolutely stay as-is, if you feel that messages are becoming too OOC, meta, or otherwise against rules, report it. It doesn't need to be taken away from rule-abiding players simply because it's upsetting you that your or your buddy's virtual character is being made fun of/outed/whatever on the boards. Disinformation, propaganda, and general anonymous lying are valid avenues of RP, for conflict and otherwise, and the message boards enable that in a big way. It's one of the things that makes Arelith unique, and getting rid of that would make the server objectively worse.

I have had many characters that simply did not look at message boards at all (some were simply illiterate, others did not care) and never suffered for it. If they bother you so much, I suggest you do the same.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:33 pm

It only makes RP sense that a political body is capable of taking down messages they deem to be innapropiate.

It seems really odd that the gods prevent me from ripping up paper that doesn't even have a signature on it.

I think the way it is, is fine, but the arguments against changing it seem really weak to me. Why should anyone have the power to make permanent/iremmovable messages; especially someone with no city authority. That be like if we couldn't pvp people who insulted us IC to our face because we are in some "no PvP zone".

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:40 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:33 pm
It only makes RP sense that a political body is capable of taking down messages they deem to be innapropiate.

It seems really odd that the gods prevent me from ripping up paper that doesn't even have a signature on it.

I think the way it is, is fine, but the arguments against changing it seem really weak to me. Why should anyone have the power to make permanent/iremmovable messages; especially someone with no city authority. That be like if we couldn't pvp people who insulted us IC to our face because we are in some "no PvP zone".
Sometimes though we've got to balence what makes sense rp wise, with that's good game play.
This too shall pass.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by stoneheart- » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:42 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:33 pm
It only makes RP sense that a political body is capable of taking down messages they deem to be innapropiate.
Except there are now major RP hubs in which the elected PC government doesn't have absolute political authority (Cordor, Guldorand, an argument can be made for Andunor), so...

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by Xarge VI » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:47 pm

Not that I think social media style outrage on message boards is a huge problem.

But I think making quill and ink necessary to write papers would be good. Hunting down harnak seeds, vials and iron ore might in some cases calm that hysteric social media style trigger finger a bit. Not that I think outraged declarations in themselves are bad- but it's all about nuances.

I also think that tyrannical government leaders should be able to moderate the city message boards and criers too. But not absolutely. There should always be a tinfoil hat wearing gnome somewhere that rogues and maybe bards can access to view what the boards have actually contained.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:49 pm

stoneheart- wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:42 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:33 pm
It only makes RP sense that a political body is capable of taking down messages they deem to be innapropiate.
Except there are now major RP hubs in which the elected PC government doesn't have absolute political authority (Cordor, Guldorand, an argument can be made for Andunor), so...
I think when you write anonymous letters that fall under the category of defaming, the most liberal/Democratic soceities would habe reasonable grounds to have said limited authority remove said peace disturbing material.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:55 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:40 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:33 pm
It only makes RP sense that a political body is capable of taking down messages they deem to be innapropiate.

It seems really odd that the gods prevent me from ripping up paper that doesn't even have a signature on it.

I think the way it is, is fine, but the arguments against changing it seem really weak to me. Why should anyone have the power to make permanent/iremmovable messages; especially someone with no city authority. That be like if we couldn't pvp people who insulted us IC to our face because we are in some "no PvP zone".
Sometimes though we've got to balence what makes sense rp wise, with that's good game play.
Yeah I am not sure in this one as I don't have enough experience in said area. To me seems bad gameplay, in a world where msit things we can retaliate too, to have no way of removing/addressing other than starting a non sensical twitter war instead of more in person RP (like pay some third party to post with their magical signature to not get removed, etc.)

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by Watchful Glare » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:14 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:33 pm
It only makes RP sense that a political body is capable of taking down messages they deem to be innapropiate.

It seems really odd that the gods prevent me from ripping up paper that doesn't even have a signature on it.

I think the way it is, is fine, but the arguments against changing it seem really weak to me. Why should anyone have the power to make permanent/iremmovable messages; especially someone with no city authority. That be like if we couldn't pvp people who insulted us IC to our face because we are in some "no PvP zone".
It is also strange that bodies become permanent fixtures upon the land that cannot be removed even by spells that shatter the earth or arcanists capable of altering the flow of time. You have to make some concessions for the sake of RP and not look too much into those things. Your character can just say it's how things work on this island, due to magic, if you need an IC outlet and move on from there.

I'm torn on removing anonymous messages. I rarely had my characters do anyonymous or disguised messages, but I do see them used to oppose groups that are seen as powerful or individuals that are seen as powerful. And even if IC your character can find that vexating, I don't see OOC why that should go away. Anonymous messages are already (as far as I've seen) seen as likely less than veridical or legitimate, as it's entirely possible it's just being used to slander something.

And slander is something that is to be expected, just as lying is to be expected in-character. I don't imagine anyone would be approached by a DM OOCly and asked "Hey did X character really fly over you and blasted a carriage with it's laser vision?" and that player OOCly saying "Yes that's absolutely what happened".

Having access to a mass communication media, and having the tools for saying "Only what I approve of gets posted here" is... A strange choice.

While it would make sense IC, if a character is a nobody opposing an established or particularly violent regime they're signing their own death sentence. At best, they'd get a "talking to" about the "consequences" if they persist with their behavior. Which leads into it not happening again, or their death. Someone posting angry anonymous messages is already feeling impotent as it is, and is afraid enough of the consequences to not want to be anywhere near them. That will make them bold about what they say, and often your character can read the frustration in whatever is written.

I don't think grinding for it is a good way to go either, as you'd soon simply find the tools for sale in the nearest shop next to the board.

This particular can of worms has been around since forever. I remember when I first joined the server constantly reading messages from other settlements with messages that amounted to "We defeated your settlement's team in PvP/They ran/they're not so good, we're the bestest! Look at us, we won!". I remember even reading them in places such as the slave quarters board, and thinking why. Where do you really draw the line with these things? I don't remember reading a guideline on it, or a ruling, so it feels more of a rule of thumb approach to how to use it in which you learn by the way others seem to use it, or what's to be expected from it generally.

I remember in the UD the message board social-media-war reached an all time high at one point. So people just stole the message board and left a message in it's place. "When you learn to use it, you'll get it back." There were many problems around it. So in the end two boards were created. One for relevant messages, another for smack talk, political satire, criticism and 'off-topic' things as it were.

Unironically it worked pretty well because it turned out to be nowhere near as bad as it had been prior, and whatever few one-on-one exchanges you see on the main board since do feel very on point and they no longer develop into a string of ten messages that amount to "You smell" "Nanana you smell" "No u" "NO, U" to the point where nothing new or of substance is being added. When you see two juicy messages being exchanged like that, it's hot gossip. When it's developed into a twenty message back and forth, it's just annoying.

The surface with it's unmovable message boards might have different issues. Though from my understanding, it's also a very contentious place where people might just constantly steal or destroy the message board if they don't like the contents, and that sounds like a hassle to deal with once the possibility to that is open.

I think it would be to everyone's benefit then if it's generally used for nefarious purposes (or otherwise), to have rules for it's use outlined just to make sure everyone is on the same page, and misuses can be appropriately reported. It would likely be a displeasing thing to go forward with, but better in the long run to have something clear cut to refer to that isn't requiring a DM's judgement on it every so often.
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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:23 pm

I wouldn't neccesarly be against those ideas, sure. But it does open new issues with people who want to play secretive concepts. It's good sometimes having things hidden.

it seems to me, judging from your recent posts, Malcom - that something has happened in game, presumably very public, that you have one version of and others are ferverently persuing and penalizing you with another version. You're frustrated because to your memory (and probably truthfully!) you've not done anything wrong, yet others are painting you the bad guy, and you're being penalized for a crime that, in your eyes, you did not commit.

That sucks, and if you feel the amount of harassment you are facing goes beyond the pail, then please contact the DM team and we'll look into it. Or if you know the players doing this - contact them and ask them to perhaps consider backing off a smidge? I'm not saying it'll work - they're within their rights to (within reason) play their pcs as they see fit, and In Game actions have In Game Consequences, but most of the time I find people are very amenable and are keen to make sure others have fun, and work out when plotlines arn't going anywhere interesting.

Or as a third option... treat it as a fun plot point! Take a breath, take a step back, and treat it as a cool narrative bump for your pc to overcome! You know you're innocent! Now work to prove it! Work by being the man they say you arn't! Fictuion has a lot of stories where the plucky protagonist is framed for a Crime He Did Not Commit! Consider what an awsome story this will make, down the line, when your hero faces the cowardly liars and spinless fake-posters, to be the true hero!

Just some ideas.
This too shall pass.

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Re: In game public message boards and criers can go

Post by Ork » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:35 pm

Xarge VI wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:47 pm
Not that I think social media style outrage on message boards is a huge problem.

But I think making quill and ink necessary to write papers would be good. Hunting down harnak seeds, vials and iron ore might in some cases calm that hysteric social media style trigger finger a bit. Not that I think outraged declarations in themselves are bad- but it's all about nuances.
I actually do like this method. Sure you can make some asinine post on the board, but it costs something.

I think the OP however is having an incident of "I don't agree with whats bring roleplayed" and that's really not a reason to change a system.

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