Dragon Shape

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Red_Wharf
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Red_Wharf » Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:06 am

Some food for thought: looking at the CR ratings in the Monster Manual, I think dragons like Abazuur and the white one from the Auril temple dungeon could easily be renamed to Adult Red Dragon and Adult White Dragon, leaving older and ancient dragons as special enemies for events or very hard new dungeons. The other dragons in the game world, more often found as easy random encounters, could likely be renamed to Young or Juvenile Dragons too. I think this alone would be a fine change. For Epic Dragon Knight, as mentioned in earlier comments, perhaps it could function with streams like Gate and summoning spells do? Say you have toggled the Mechanus stream, you could summon a Mithril Golem with EDK, or a Pit Fiend with the Infernal stream (assuming that Gate gets changed to summon Cornugons).

Long term, a project like this would necessarily involve adjusting Demon and Devil spawns too, after all, fiends are no pushovers either (Balors have the same CR as Old Red Dragons), and obviously to anyone, this would take a lot of developer time, but I think it has its merits, and I hope it can happen one day.

Void
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Void » Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:27 am

Red_Wharf wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:06 am
Some food for thought: looking at the CR ratings in the Monster Manual, I think dragons like Abazuur and the white one from the Auril temple dungeon could easily be renamed to Adult Red Dragon and Adult White Dragon,
Adult White dragon is Large size. Meaning horse-sized. It also has challenge rating of 10, meaning can be defeated by a party of level 10 characters with moderate difficulty....

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Ping14 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:36 am

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:18 pm

Lets say the Dms run a Dragon Attack event - where three massive cromatic dragons are going to attack Cordor!
Mostly off topic:

Wasn't there an event like this 7 years ago? Dracorage mythal failing, with dragon cultists appearing initially as friendly astronomers, looking up to the stars. Then ending in just blasting of the king killer star. I had fun with that, and it was really refreshing for dragons to be used in a plot. (Dragons were alot more common then, the Spire circle has lots of white, the RDD has lots or reds, like 3-4 adult with one to two ancient in one group)

It was alot more lower level magic back then. No runes. Best equipment we had was +2STAT, 4 +2skills, 1 +1skill OR +2STAT, 1 Save, 2 +2skills. And classes were generic mostly, with only the path system providing variety. It was that event that somehow refreshed the fear of dragons, with some toons getting WTFPwned at 30 with tweaked up dragons.

I think it fits the narrative if dragons become rarer and rarer, we are, afterall, killing most of them. Its a refreshing change, and most welcome.


On topic:

I think druids getting ent shape is great! I can only dream of it before. Options before were iron golem + barkskin (which is as cringe as dragon shape in terms of RP - some people let the RP slide, some dont, it was borderline silly, but I understand the wish and the fantasy to play such a nature-walker)


Semi on topic:

EDK changing is great too. Its difficult to justify having controls of dragons, especially if it is blocked with the -associate tool. I usually just summon what fits more for the dungeon. Fighting a white dragon? *points up to the skies, the ceiling caves in as a gold dragon comes crashing down*... Ruins of Benwick? *Skies darkens briefly, covering most of the surroundings then a strong gust of the air as a silver dragon lands to aid* ... Shadow plane? *A mysterious shadowy figure creeps up from behind then starts to tail swipes the cloakers*

With entrances, there's no awkwardness, its great on the summoning, specially in the heat of battle. But it is that follows after which is awkward. As you cannot ignore others commenting: "Uh, is that dragon yours" ... *here's a whole line of text, trying to make a story that it is not yours, its from the environment, only have the affinity for it, so and so... or a pact that you have made, blah blah blah*

When it gets killed in combat, it is also awkward... As you can get responses like: "That dragon almost did nothing, bought us time though for retreat" or "That dragon fell almost as quickly as it was called". I usually just say, "Dragons be prideful creatures, heh, prolly not be interested, gots bored, flew away".


On topic:

As for dragon shaping, never played a dragon shaper druid myself. But I think there are some parallels with my experiences with playing with an EDK character. (There is almost no reason to use EDK even just because of this certain awkwardness)


This is mostly a suggestion:

Change EDK so it summons a HOSTILE dragon, with a stats that can challenge a level 30 toon but almost always attacks the first hostile mob nearest it. Certain alignment changes have to be made tho... like good aligned dragons with automatically be neutral to some good aligned / neutral aligned dragons. Neutral aligned dragons mostly neutral to everyone but with less STATs. Evil aligned only neutral to the summoner, signifying a pact of sorts. But this can make it metagamey, "disguised?" summon a silver, see if it sniffs out the evil in you.

All in all, a great change for DS, and would appreciate if EDK is given the same changes, though perhaps make it last a bit longer? Turns/CL maybe?

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-XXX-
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by -XXX- » Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:20 am

Ping14 wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:36 am
This is mostly a suggestion:

Change EDK so it summons a HOSTILE dragon, with a stats that can challenge a level 30 toon but almost always attacks the first hostile mob nearest it. Certain alignment changes have to be made tho... like good aligned dragons with automatically be neutral to some good aligned / neutral aligned dragons. Neutral aligned dragons mostly neutral to everyone but with less STATs. Evil aligned only neutral to the summoner, signifying a pact of sorts. But this can make it metagamey, "disguised?" summon a silver, see if it sniffs out the evil in you.

All in all, a great change for DS, and would appreciate if EDK is given the same changes, though perhaps make it last a bit longer? Turns/CL maybe?
That sounds like one of those "let's do something cool and flavorful, but make sure it falls short of being actualy useful" type of suggestion to me - like slapping confusion on top of barbarian rage.

EDK is a single summon granted by an epic feat. There's no need for being overly creative here - a simple reskin and some stat tweaks and we're all good.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Drowboy » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:42 pm

hell, rename it Epic Summoning and you can add more skins that aren't just dragon themed (although literal dragon knights, like, idk, humanoid dragon things would be cool)
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Roofshadow
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Roofshadow » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:51 pm

While I don't necessarily have a problem with dragon shape being removed for druids, I do very much hope that things like the (nonexistent) damage for totem shape will be revisited.

I love shapeshifting classes, so druids have been a long-term favorite of mine, but as it stands, the two most viable forms have seemed to be dragon shape and monolithic elemental shape. Of the two of those, dragon was the closest to 'predatory animal form'. If it's replaced with a tree, the aesthetic of 'predatory animal' is left to the totemic form, which, while thick, has the "this weapon is ineffective" problem when dealing with anything that has a sliver of DR.

As someone whose main druid was a Malarite, trying to kill things as a giant rock or a tree isn't really the druid aesthetic I would hope for. Dragon, while not exactly ideal, was a bit... better? I just hope to see an epic animal shape, or totem druid's damage be given just a crumb of elemental damage or similar, so that such a druid aesthetic can still be viable in late levels.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:28 am

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:18 pm
Void wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:03 pm
Kalthariam wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:43 pm
Sure they are big and scary, but by the very nature of all the PCs capping out at level 30,
I think the only things people would fear are those that can permakill them or destroy their equipment.

Anything else will be seen as a challenge and nothing more.
Yesss... but there's such a thing as immersion.

In a really well written book, I actually feel the horror, joy, sadness, fear for the characters within it - even though I know they're purely fictional.
In a badly written book, I won't get anywhere near as invested.

I believe this works a little the same in roleplay. if everyone is on the same page, if the world is 'immersive' enough, then even though I may oocly know my character is going to be fine to respawn, it's easy to go along with the narrative that they may not be.

Lets say the Dms run a Dragon Attack event - where three massive cromatic dragons are going to attack Cordor!

If you walk up to a group of pcs and go: 'I hear that ther's going to be a Dragon attack soon!' And their response is 'oh what? yeah must be tuesday.' 'hold on I'll get my dragonslaying sword' 'I killed Abazur 29 times already this should be ezies.' 'good I'm so bored.' - Then that's not very immersive and not very fun. And to be fair, if people are killing Abazur or dragons in general every second day, then it's kinda understandable (though a shame) for people to act like that.

But what if you walk up to a group and their response is more like: 'What? Dragons! Hells we should prepare!' 'We need to get people to safty!' 'I'll call as many people as possible this is serious!' - et cetera.

Now this response can of course be done by people who are willing to susspend their ooc understanding of how certain mechanics work for the sake of the system(*)... or those who are easily immersed in it anyway. On a base level they know dragons are rough and tough and dangerous and so it's easy to act like they're dangerous. In short whilst it isn't always possible to mirror the lore and theme of a setting through gameplay and mechanics - where you can do so it's generally not a bad idea TO do so.


* By this I mean - that we have certain mechanics or situations in, that serve because this is a game and we want it to be a fun place for people to tell their stories ect in - but that these can counteract what the setting wants to be. The best example of course is Death. We would like people to treat death like... well pretty much like Death. Something to be avoided, feared ect. But we don't want to introduce a one-death-permadeath system, so we depend on players seperating out the lore and susspending disbelief.
I agree with pretty much all of this, but, I also agree with Void. Like you said, if someone has bested (I don't like the word 'killed' for respawning persistent NPC's) Abazurr 29 times it is understandable that they aren't too terrified of dragons, when Abazurr is the apex example of dragons on the server without crossing planar boundaries.

However, if you're looking to instill a sense of a fear of death and make those characters who say such things and feel such a way rarer, I only have one idea to cause that on a wide scale, and it would be massively unpopular (although I'm of the belief it would be good for everyone's story overall no matter how they feel about it).

People can only shrug their shoulders at the threat of a dragon attack because they've been high enough level to make routine work of them for a long time, and have done so. This applies to any major threat, not just dragons.

If, however, to progress past level 20 into epics, you had to take a mandatory MoD from that point on (with all its bonuses and the dreaded countdown), you would have people to whom death is a threat to take seriously, performing epic deeds, which makes them all the more epic until their inevitable demise or retirement.

And then you will have people who will stop at level 20, and never get to the point where a major dragon or planar attack is a shrug of the shoulders, because they're only working with level 20 and that's never going to be the walk in the park it is for a level 30.

It would force immersion and fear of death in dangerous situations at higher levels with mechanical boundaries that, IMO, make sense. Like I said though, I'm pretty sure only a very small handful of people would actually like that idea.
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by godhand- » Fri Dec 24, 2021 6:00 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:28 am
Snip -- Forced MoD after 20

though, I'm pretty sure only a very small handful of people would actually like that idea.
I like it. +1

Maybe 25 lives though.
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Exordius
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Exordius » Fri Dec 24, 2021 6:17 am

I think easiest way to fix the problem is make all dragons like the ones i described of on the other server... so frigging hard that even with an army of lv 30 power-builds the odds of winning are only maybe 25% at most, and maybe 10% at least.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Void » Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:15 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:28 am
If, however, to progress past level 20 into epics, you had to take a mandatory MoD from that point on (with all its bonuses and the dreaded countdown),
Then people would still hunt dragons.

Characters I play die less than 10 times on their 1-30 journey. The weakest character I ever played died maybe 5 or 6 times total. The most recent one died probably even less than that, and managed to kill a dragon solo in epics due to being ambushed by it.

The server already implements death penalties that people would rather avoid, as death currently means the end of play session, because you'll be stuck with screwed up stats for a long time. MoD does not significantly change that. They'll figure out how to murder dragons in large numbers. It will simply take a bit longer.

If you're toying with permadeath ideas, how about a setup where upon reaching level 30 your chracter permanently dies from a heart attack? It could be an interesting experience. Or upon reaching a specific level, randomly chosen upon character creation.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Hazard
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Hazard » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:56 am

Hey. Will ent shape be super strong but have a massive vulnerability to fire? Because I think that would be cool.
Could make it a kick Snuggybear spell, without ruining PvP balance because pretty much anyone can get access to fire.

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-XXX-
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by -XXX- » Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:58 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:28 am
If, however, to progress past level 20 into epics, you had to take a mandatory MoD from that point on (with all its bonuses and the dreaded countdown), you would have people to whom death is a threat to take seriously, performing epic deeds, which makes them all the more epic until their inevitable demise or retirement.

And then you will have people who will stop at level 20, and never get to the point where a major dragon or planar attack is a shrug of the shoulders, because they're only working with level 20 and that's never going to be the walk in the park it is for a level 30.

It would force immersion and fear of death in dangerous situations at higher levels with mechanical boundaries that, IMO, make sense. Like I said though, I'm pretty sure only a very small handful of people would actually like that idea.
Forced MoD will never make players respect or fear game elements more. If anything, it'd only actively contribute to cheese, salt and drama.
Furthermore:
Irongron wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:48 pm
As I said before I will never force MoDs on players, whatever their level.

Maybe Mithreas feels differently, but for myself I think my position on this is pretty clear.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:48 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:58 am
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:28 am
If, however, to progress past level 20 into epics, you had to take a mandatory MoD from that point on (with all its bonuses and the dreaded countdown), you would have people to whom death is a threat to take seriously, performing epic deeds, which makes them all the more epic until their inevitable demise or retirement.

And then you will have people who will stop at level 20, and never get to the point where a major dragon or planar attack is a shrug of the shoulders, because they're only working with level 20 and that's never going to be the walk in the park it is for a level 30.

It would force immersion and fear of death in dangerous situations at higher levels with mechanical boundaries that, IMO, make sense. Like I said though, I'm pretty sure only a very small handful of people would actually like that idea.
Forced MoD will never make players respect or fear game elements more. If anything, it'd only actively contribute to cheese, salt and drama.
Furthermore:
Irongron wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:48 pm
As I said before I will never force MoDs on players, whatever their level.

Maybe Mithreas feels differently, but for myself I think my position on this is pretty clear.
Amen.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by xf1313 » Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:22 pm

Right, if all druids get to re-level, and please offer some cool shape as compensation. Not everyone is into trees, (faire dragon pls? This little fella is cute)

On top of that, give snake druids massive, terrifying snake skin please!
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Jagel » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:03 am

Late to the party but is the plant shape 3/day like DS? Always felt weird to me that monolith is infinite uses while the subpar DS (now plant shape) is only 3/day. More uses or use on cooldown seems more sensible IMO

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:24 pm

I think it is great change for druids, meh for shifters.

Good change overall, making a shadow copy of a mound of trees unfortunately is less interesting than a dragon for me lol. But I understand the intent and overall it's good.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by jomonog » Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:45 pm

Jagel wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:03 am
Late to the party but is the plant shape 3/day like DS? Always felt weird to me that monolith is infinite uses while the subpar DS (now plant shape) is only 3/day. More uses or use on cooldown seems more sensible IMO
100% this if not unlimited at least please put all shapes on cooldown like many other class abilities have been moving to. Would make shifter much more playable as well. I also hope whatever tree shape ends up it should be able to move through dungeons. Collossal size on dragon is cool and all until you get stopped by a door.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Hazard » Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:42 am

The size of DS made it practically unsable, combined with the 3 uses you get.
You easily use up all 3 uses just moving through any area because you will get stuck on rocks, doors, terrain, trees, a pebble, everything.

If the new shape is smaller 3 might be fine, but a CD/infinite wouldn't hurt.
But it really needs to be smaller.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Kalthariam » Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:06 am

So.. to the people advocating for the Removal of EDK and being replaced with outsiders..

What would the difference between whatever "Epic Dragon Knight" was renamed to, and Planar conduit be at that point?

Like, we already have a outsider based epic summon. What would reskinning EDK to being something else really do overall? Besides just removing something dragon related?

I'm still very weary of people wanting to advocate for the wholesale removal of anything dragon-related, because some people seem to just want to completely purge everything dragon related from the game, regardless of if it's a theme that people enjoy or not.

I seriously do not believe that removing all things dragon is going to re-mystify dragons. It's just going to annoy people who liked the draconic theme in the dungeons and dragons game.

I get the dragon theme isn't everyone's cup of tea, but neither is undead or demons / devil / outsiders themes everyone's cup of tea, and we don't have people clamoring to remove those themes from the game. :|

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by godhand- » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:46 am

Kalthariam wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:06 am
What would reskinning EDK to being something else really do overall? Besides just removing something dragon related?

I'm still very weary of people wanting to advocate for the wholesale removal of anything dragon-related, because some people seem to just want to completely purge everything dragon related from the game, regardless of if it's a theme that people enjoy or not.

I seriously do not believe that removing all things dragon is going to re-mystify dragons. It's just going to annoy people who liked the draconic theme in the dungeons and dragons game.
I'm going to quote Kenji from earlier in this thread, to point out its not the intention to remove dragons entirely - but from the player characters ability to use/control.
Kenji wrote: Dragons are supposed to be rare. Dragons are supposed to be these near-mythical and powerful creatures. NWN mechanics and gameplay depict these creatures as the absolute opposite of what they're supposed to be. Any dragon that is sourced from a PC, be it dragon shape or epic dragon knight, is not treated as seriously as it should be due to mechanical balance.

It's not mechanically great. It is thematically jarring. Lore-wise dragons and Nature don't always go hand-in-hand. We're better off without it from both a player's and a non-professional volunteer developer's perspective.

It's a good call to let players have as little connection to Dragons as possible and make it either an end-game boss or a DM-handled character.
Kalthariam wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:06 am
What would the difference between whatever "Epic Dragon Knight" was renamed to, and Planar conduit be at that point?
There is a distinct mechanical difference between the two feat/ability/spells.
Conduit - lower power, high survivability - for 90% of pve content.
Knight - high power/burst damage, low survivability - for bosses and pvp content.
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by -XXX- » Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:49 am

godhand- wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:46 am
There is a distinct mechanical difference between the two feat/ability/spells.
Conduit - lower power, high survivability - for 90% of pve content.
Knight - high power/burst damage, low survivability - for bosses and pvp content.
The difference between the knight's and conduit's power level is rather marginal. Increased survivability, longer duration (allows for further buffs via wands/potions) and the fact that the EDK just won't fight anything larger than human-sized models still makes the conduit a better choice for most boss fights.

Current niche of EDK consists of presenting a minor distraction in PvP (most melee builds can just casually 1-round maul it down or sprint straight for the caster while the cumbersome dragon struggles to catch up).
I'm hoping that a rework for this feat gets into the pipeline at some point, because it's in a really sad state right now.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Kalthariam » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:05 pm

I understand that the removal of "controlling dragons" seems to be the key here, according to Kenji

However, there are plenty of people that seem to be full board advocating for removing anything dragon flavored from PCs. Including many who want to remove the wings from RDDs, and make it to where PCs cannot have any visible draconic connections at all.

That's what I'm worried about.

Also once planar conduit came out, got rid of EDK for Planar Conduit, because I just do not think EDK is stronger than Planar Conduit, so unless they adjust the stats, I really just do not see the point of changing EDK to be outsider based, It just seems it will be a short term planar conduit that is arguably weaker.

The only one that seemed to be stronger was the dracolich, because everything undead has to be stronger than it's alive counterparts it seems.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by RedGiant » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:13 pm

Kalthariam wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:06 am
I seriously do not believe that removing all things dragon is going to re-mystify dragons. It's just going to annoy people who liked the draconic theme in the dungeons and dragons game.

I get the dragon theme isn't everyone's cup of tea, but neither is undead or demons / devil / outsiders themes everyone's cup of tea, and we don't have people clamoring to remove those themes from the game.
This...in a nutshell. I do feel like my anti-removal thread was hijacked by the pro-camp. As others have mentioned here, there is a distinct niche for the 'fang and claw' sort of druid. This was the pinnacle of their progression. Many people here mention that DS sucks. Well, it was changed to suck. It used to be a premier tanking option that required significant investment to achieve and was terrifying to behold. It was reworked and tucked in well below monolith shape. These were all design decisions of their era. Which brings us back to my original OP, which the Staff has kindly weighed in on, but also proven my point. They don't like it. Some vocal players don't like it. So it seems like that is where we are.

The divide seems to really be about whether or not you find the penultimate expression of nature in its creatures or in the environment. The design decisions, intentionally or not, seemed to have moved more and more away from 'fang and claws' and increasingly toward 'wind and willow' types. That's fine. I don't agree with it, nor some of our more vocal community members who seem to think only the later is authentic druidry. But I suppose we are all free to play them or not.

On the EDK subject, never a fan of burst summons, but if the design philosophy expressed here follows through, I can't see them staying 'as is' simply because its one of the least impressive epic spell of the moment, with Planar Conduit and Mummy Dust each granting far greater utility.
Last edited by RedGiant on Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Void » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:15 pm

Kalthariam wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:05 pm
However, there are plenty of people that seem to be full board advocating for removing anything dragon flavored from PCs. Including many who want to remove the wings from RDDs, and make it to where PCs cannot have any visible draconic connections at all.

That's what I'm worried about.
I honestly don't see a point of doing that. If the idea was to make dragons mystical again, then I think that ship sailed. And removal of dragon-related things will result in loss of content.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by RedGiant » Tue May 24, 2022 12:49 am

Though I did not make the statue in the Undergrove, I now know it to be a prophecy.

R.I.P. Epahs Nogard

On the bright side, couple of rolls coming my way.
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