Dragon Shape

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Wethrinea
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Wethrinea » Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:16 am

If you want to be big an stompy, giants are way cooler than dragons.

... I'd play a shifter just for giant shapes if they ever became an option.
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Sincra » Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:24 am

Void wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:38 am
Kenji wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:19 am
Dragons are supposed to be rare. Dragons are supposed to be these near-mythical and powerful creatures. NWN mechanics and gameplay depict these creatures as the absolute opposite of what they're supposed to be. Any dragon that is sourced from a PC, be it dragon shape or epic dragon knight, is not treated as seriously as it should be due to mechanical balance.
This idea is not reflected in the server setting, as you can kill your first full sized dragon at level 8. Solo. There are multiple adult dragons you can encounter, and majority are perfectly killable.

Also, shouldn't be people deciding what they want to do with their characters instead of being told to "rethink"? There are totem druids whose entire schtick is centered around a specific form. So there's no problem with being focused on trying to become a specific animal, or preferring to assume a shape of said animal.

Honestly if the shape is taken away, the old druids should've grandfathered i.
Kenji wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:19 am
I say we go a step ahead and remove RDD wings as well as replace Epic Dragon Knights with golemancy or anything but dragons!
That sort of change fells like it would be a destructive one.

It feels like it is about taking things away from people without concern of their characters and amount of time spent playing. All in the name of some sort of ideal. And that is instead of providing more things for people to enjoy.

However, it would be a good way to upset plenty of players who invested a lot of time into the server.
Can't have it all, bud.

If we want to make dragons more meaningful and scarier we have to start somewhere, not all devs do area/creature work.
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Void » Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:29 am

Sincra wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:24 am
If we want to make dragons more meaningful and scarier
"If".

Last characters of mine could go to Dis for a drink. Every day if they wanted. After seeing a glimpse of true size of universe, it is very difficult to be unsettled by a mere dragon. Even if it is old, ancient and powerful (also hungry and trying to eat you). At this point something much more terrifying and powerful would be necessary. People get used to terrifying things, become jaded, and then those things from rare and mysterious become boring and ordinary.

Basically, in my experience, the only way to make people fear something is to never let them face it directly or in combat. Otherwise they'll stop being afraid, and will instead treat that thing as a challenge to overcome.
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:00 am

Paint wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:41 am
Since this has moved into the tangent of dragon shape being used to ruin the mystique of dragons -- and I'm not going to complain about that because it's true, I've seen it, and I've seen dragons done well and done horribly -- I do think that banning dragon shape doesn't necessarily fix the larger problem. There are more than a few dragon enemies on arelith that are very inconsequential. It often leads to conversations of people going, "Hey, let's go kill a dragon," like it's something to do when you're bored on a tuesday afternoon, rather than some thing you fear you might not be coming back from. I think in a setting where PCs can go toe to toe with dragons on their own and brush it off like just another day at work, you're going to have a disconnect. I've been surprised by random encounter dragons in some places and thought I was in trouble, only for them to crumple and die rather quickly. Big, adult dragons the size of a house!

So while this does help address the problem of the terrifying and powerful nature of dragons being diminished by players, it doesn't really do so for the setting of Arelith. And I understand you can just roleplay dragons as more dangerous and terrifying than they are mechanically, but it gets exhausting to do that when they're just so clearly not.

TL;DR -- I don't think removing dragon shape is going to make me take dragons any more seriously when they're so easy to kill. But it -will- take one way for people to break the immersion of the setting by being absolute buffoons away. That being said, please don't take away shapechange; I actually use the iron golem form from time to time to carry heavy loads of stone, and I am happy to entertain any RP that comes from it.
I absolutely agree with this. Any non-wyrm dragons need a significant buff to actually be considered even close to fearsome.

While it's true that there are a few (I can only think of one) truly powerful dragons on Arelith, they are definitely not the norm. The way dragons (but also devils and demons) are talked about so casually is a huge slap in the face of immersion.


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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by -XXX- » Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:19 am

Hazard wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:47 am
I know it's kinda off topic but I really wish big bads like dragons and stuff didn't have unique names anymore.
I really hate seeing "Let's go kill Abby." "I killed Abazur fifteen times and didn't get any adamantine!" etc, it's very common for people to talk this way.
TBH, it's mostly the fault of a poor (or outdated, to be more precise) dungeon design where RDI is concerned. Abby himself is adequate as far as difficulty goes, but the rest of the dungeon is just too short and too easy. IMO they should probably disable adamantine spawning there (same philosophy as with the Storm Giant) until someone from the team decides to update and expand the RDI dungeon.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:28 am

I think the comments about the other dragons in the module are really good and I pretty much agree with it, though I'm not sure it's a priority.

Honestly it seems most people are behind this change, and I think it's very cool.

I think if I played a treant shifting druid, Id' find ways to put points into stealth. So I could stand really still and pretend to be a tree, then go BOO to people as they pass by.

This is why I probably shouldn't play a treant shifted druid...
This too shall pass.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Zavandar » Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:55 pm

more often than not, I have seen dragonshape pc's getting chin scratches, carrying people like babies, tossing them up and down, and acting like a jungle gym

they will be a RED or GREEN dragon in the middle of a town doing this

and, very often, the people around them will get annoyed if you try to confront it in any way, even though this kind of behavior totally ignores npc's. I'm sure we will see the same of treants, but it at least won't be as egregious.

there is a reason (well there are several) you can't make dragon pc's anymore, and when you have people making druids just to take dshape and circumvent this, you have a problem. and frankly I'm on with bringing down other things like edk and rdd. When you have people summons epic dragon knights and calling them things like "fluffles" and "rainbow", it gets even harder to take dragons seriously.

regarding casually going to Dis or RDI or anything like that, you could also... not. be the change you want to see if you want people to take things seriously.

and if they don't? they'll have to contend with changes like this.
Intelligence is too important

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Hazard
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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Hazard » Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:02 pm

I'm all for taking dragon forms and stuff away, but would be very sad to lose EDK. That's one of the coolest looking abilities in the whole game.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by AddledPunster » Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:47 pm

I'm not going to weigh in on feelings about the RP aspects because my opinions on Druid Dragonform have already been thoroughly voiced in this thread, but THIS:
Red Ropes wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:17 pm
For the reprieve alone from all of this dragon saturation I think its a good change. Also turning into Shambling Mounds and Treants is closer for druids to some of their actual feats in the tabletop and also, not sure if anyone is aware, but Dragonshape is MECHANICALLY AWFUL - I don't care if someone spreadsheets me the AB. You can't move through doors. You get caught on everything due to NWN's janky limitations. It's just a bad port and frankly are too large to properly be used in game.

These new shapes, though still large, actually make them viable things. Not just eye candy but an effective use of their bonuses for the investment need to qualify for them.
This bit is what made me break down and weep tears of joy. I cannot tell you how absolutely silly it felt to be stopped by two trees, a door, or a three foot tall boulder in a mountain pass. Silly for RP, for PvE, for PvP, the whole lot. I would celebrate turning dragon form into gibberling form with the same stats if it fixed the size collision issue. That it's going to be monstrous plants makes this change a real treant.
Last edited by AddledPunster on Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Void » Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:29 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:55 pm
there is a reason (well there are several) you can't make dragon pc's anymore, and when you have people making druids just to take
Well, I played on Sigil (nwn2).

When people play an actual dragon, it, most of the time, gets into their head, really hard and badly affects their behavior. So I'm of opinion that actual dragons shoudl not be playable by players.

However.

A druid with a dragon shape is not a dragon. He is a fake, inferior to the real thing and will forever remain a fake. And that makes all the difference...

-------

As for druid forms, how about a T-Rex form instead? At least that would match the Apex Predator feeling.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:11 pm

I agree with th removal of dragon shape for pretty much every reason already mentioned!

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Kalthariam » Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:43 pm

I mean.. most PCs are level 30 at the end of the day.

Balors, Dragons, ect. are not nearly as impressive to a level 30 character as say a level 20 character.

By nature of our characters getting to epic levels, it automatically diminishes many of these "End game" monsters that are scary. I mean heck, even at level 27+ you have groups of epic level adventurers "Grinding" demons like balors for experience in the abyss for training and sport.

My cleric can summon a giant water elemental and toss a few spells on it and make it 1v1 ancient wyrm dragons and win.

Sure they are "big and scary", but by the very nature of all the PCs capping out at level 30, none of this stuff is really that big or impressive, or would I really expect a level 30 character to fear adult dragons, or even a balor as some people have pointed out.

Epic characters are just so much more powerful than level 20 characters just by being level 30 it cheapens all the big name monsters.

The only thing that comes close to being dangerous is maybe beholders, due to their just ability to rip off wards and magic spells, but toss a level 30 monk or fighter at them and watch them fall over because neither class relies on any of that.

I personally am not a fan of the removal of the dragon form. especially having personally experienced unexpected changes myself that lead to quite alot of personal frustrations, but the admin team seems set on this so I do not think it's going to be changed.

Though I have to ask are the shambling mount immunities at least being applied to the form? Or is it just going to be a copy and paste of dragon shapes stats..? Because if so that's unfortunate cause the shambling mounds have some neat immunities. Unlike treant... which I mean... its' a tree? That walks? can might be able to hide good in a forest, but it's still a tree made out of flamable bark.

I think someone mentioned dinosaur forms earlier in the thread, I think those would be a far better choice than a plant form.

Not all druids are tree hugging hippies, some are vicious predators that protect their homes with fang and claw and packs of other predatory animals.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Void » Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:03 pm

Kalthariam wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:43 pm
Sure they are big and scary, but by the very nature of all the PCs capping out at level 30,
I think the only things people would fear are those that can permakill them or destroy their equipment.

Anything else will be seen as a challenge and nothing more.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:18 pm

Void wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:03 pm
Kalthariam wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:43 pm
Sure they are big and scary, but by the very nature of all the PCs capping out at level 30,
I think the only things people would fear are those that can permakill them or destroy their equipment.

Anything else will be seen as a challenge and nothing more.
Yesss... but there's such a thing as immersion.

In a really well written book, I actually feel the horror, joy, sadness, fear for the characters within it - even though I know they're purely fictional.
In a badly written book, I won't get anywhere near as invested.

I believe this works a little the same in roleplay. if everyone is on the same page, if the world is 'immersive' enough, then even though I may oocly know my character is going to be fine to respawn, it's easy to go along with the narrative that they may not be.

Lets say the Dms run a Dragon Attack event - where three massive cromatic dragons are going to attack Cordor!

If you walk up to a group of pcs and go: 'I hear that ther's going to be a Dragon attack soon!' And their response is 'oh what? yeah must be tuesday.' 'hold on I'll get my dragonslaying sword' 'I killed Abazur 29 times already this should be ezies.' 'good I'm so bored.' - Then that's not very immersive and not very fun. And to be fair, if people are killing Abazur or dragons in general every second day, then it's kinda understandable (though a shame) for people to act like that.

But what if you walk up to a group and their response is more like: 'What? Dragons! Hells we should prepare!' 'We need to get people to safty!' 'I'll call as many people as possible this is serious!' - et cetera.

Now this response can of course be done by people who are willing to susspend their ooc understanding of how certain mechanics work for the sake of the system(*)... or those who are easily immersed in it anyway. On a base level they know dragons are rough and tough and dangerous and so it's easy to act like they're dangerous. In short whilst it isn't always possible to mirror the lore and theme of a setting through gameplay and mechanics - where you can do so it's generally not a bad idea TO do so.


* By this I mean - that we have certain mechanics or situations in, that serve because this is a game and we want it to be a fun place for people to tell their stories ect in - but that these can counteract what the setting wants to be. The best example of course is Death. We would like people to treat death like... well pretty much like Death. Something to be avoided, feared ect. But we don't want to introduce a one-death-permadeath system, so we depend on players seperating out the lore and susspending disbelief.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Eyeliner » Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:16 am

I just think dragons as being something to be afraid of is a hard sell because they're so played out culturally. I think this is a recurring thing I've seen in this game and other servers, DMs telling players they're supposed to be reverent and afraid of dragons and that just gets a big shrug or the bare minimum RP to stay in good graces. Creatures from the outer planes or Lowerdark? That's always cool. Dragons? I dunno, I just haven't thought they were cool since I was a kid.

Taking them away from druids is good (though the Shapechange spell is source of way more shenanigans) and I'm excited for the plant forms. Plant-skinned summons would be fantastic too.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Kalthariam » Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:21 am

Plenty of people revere dragons. Whether it be kobolds, clerics, or something along the likes.

Just not many people think of them as major threats.

Something can be seen as reverent but not seen as a danger.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:31 am

Eyeliner wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:16 am
I just think dragons as being something to be afraid of is a hard sell because they're so played out culturally. I think this is a recurring thing I've seen in this game and other servers, DMs telling players they're supposed to be reverent and afraid of dragons and that just gets a big shrug or the bare minimum RP to stay in good graces. Creatures from the outer planes or Lowerdark? That's always cool. Dragons? I dunno, I just haven't thought they were cool since I was a kid.

Taking them away from druids is good (though the Shapechange spell is source of way more shenanigans) and I'm excited for the plant forms. Plant-skinned summons would be fantastic too.
Eh 'Have to' is a strong phrase. 'recommend' might be better? I don't think we've ever banned someone for not being afraid enough of dragons :P

Anyway, from my perspective the change seems to be a lot less about oversaturation, and more about dealing with just wierd rp that came from turning into a dragon like that, as has been illustrated above.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by godhand- » Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:46 am

Kenji wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:19 am
Good job Garrbear, I will stand behind your decision as will many others.
+1 - I also stand behind this..... Too many times i've attempted to roleplay my character SEEING a dragon for the first time, and running in fear, to instantly have people around say "my friend is a dragon." - or shapeshift into a dragon themselves. - immediately ruining the experience of the roleplay of a character being intimidated and seeing these things that is beyond their wildest imagination.

On discord, when i've brought this up, many people say "thats poor form" to the person doing the shifting etc.... But the reality, thats the norm. Its a consistent trend.
Kenji wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:19 am
I say we go a step ahead and remove RDD wings as well as replace Epic Dragon Knights with golemancy or anything but dragons!
I'd love to see EDK have their skins replaced with something like a suped up version of the gate spell....
Previously,
Gate summoned a balor, And if you were a blackguard or warlock - you summoned a "Balor Lord"
Could we do the same thing, where with EDK, you get a "balor Lord" - but with the stats of the existing dragon?
For Good, instead of a dragon, you could summon a Solar or something similiar?

This way EDK stays on theme with the existing streams and planar conduit spells, and functions like an empowered gate (which, balance wise i believe is the intention)
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by LIAR LIAR » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:31 am

Red Ropes wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:17 pm
I do not think the Dragonshape change is bad for many reasons - while the game is called Dungeons and Dragons a lot of people have been subject to non-self aware "I was a dragon in a past life", "I am a dragon trapped in a man's body", and "im kobold dwagin rawr" stuff that is just incredibly cringe. It's also very much against the rules when you actually are trying to claim that stuff factually (you are allowed to lie, be wrong, and so forth). I know that's not going to be taken well.
While I in part agree with this, it's also contradictory. This cringe roleplay was likely a lot of PCs believing their own hype, too. Which as you mentioned, is within the rules.

I'm not sure how I feel about change exactly. I think it's cool but also dragonshape was cool. Dragons have been too trivialized and dshape isn't exactly considered strong on Arelith before this.

Grumpy cat makes a lot of sense from the event perspective. Arelith may have a lot of level 30 characters, but considering our lack of Wish, some other spells, and the virtually nonexistent impact of hellball, we're more like pen and paper level 16 characters.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Hazard » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:34 am

godhand- wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:46 am
Kenji wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:19 am
Good job Garrbear, I will stand behind your decision as will many others.
+1 - I also stand behind this..... Too many times i've attempted to roleplay my character SEEING a dragon for the first time, and running in fear, to instantly have people around say "my friend is a dragon." - or shapeshift into a dragon themselves. - immediately ruining the experience of the roleplay of a character being intimidated and seeing these things that is beyond their wildest imagination.

On discord, when i've brought this up, many people say "thats poor form" to the person doing the shifting etc.... But the reality, thats the norm. Its a consistent trend.
Kenji wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:19 am
I say we go a step ahead and remove RDD wings as well as replace Epic Dragon Knights with golemancy or anything but dragons!
I'd love to see EDK have their skins replaced with something like a suped up version of the gate spell....
Previously,
Gate summoned a balor, And if you were a blackguard or warlock - you summoned a "Balor Lord"
Could we do the same thing, where with EDK, you get a "balor Lord" - but with the stats of the existing dragon?
For Good, instead of a dragon, you could summon a Solar or something similiar?

This way EDK stays on theme with the existing streams and planar conduit spells, and functions like an empowered gate (which, balance wise i believe is the intention)
What would the undead variant be?

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Void » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:45 am

godhand- wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:46 am
+1 - I also stand behind this..... Too many times i've attempted to roleplay my character SEEING a dragon for the first time, and running in fear, to instantly have people around say "my friend is a dragon." - or shapeshift into a dragon themselves. - immediately ruining the experience of the roleplay of a character being intimidated and seeing these things that is beyond their wildest imagination.
That's what happens when you end up in high level environment. There are people who hunted dragons. There are probably those who ate one and still have meat in the icebox left. They're used to it.

So in a high level environment it will go like this:


New player: "It is a dragon aaaargh!"
Random Knight in Shiny Armor: "So. Tasty. Looking! Men! Attack the beast at once, for today we feast on dragon meat"
*enthusiatic screams from castle walls. You notice one of the guards drooling while looking at the dragon*
Farmer Munching on a sandwich: "Bloody finally, that was my last dragonmeat sandwitch. *pulls out a sword +8, casts premonition and opens a gate* Get here, you brainless ancient reptile, save us some time and stuff yerself into a the pot!"
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by godhand- » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:49 am

Hazard wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:34 am
What would the undead variant be?
Perhaps a deathknight or something similiar?
Could be a +sized doom knight model (i dont know if you could put a juicy weapon in its hand too?)
see : https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Death_knight
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Kalthariam » Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:44 am

I'm a little concerned in regards to people advocating for the complete removal of anything remotely dragon-related in concept or theme.

I get some people are burned out of seeing dragon-like things in game, but the idea to completely remove all options even remotely fitting a theme just because you do not personally enjoy it seems a little off center.

That'd be like someone wanting the complete removal of all undead-themed enemies or demon-themed enemies because they ran into a buncha really bad necromaner RPers or really bad Diablolist RPers.

Things like RDD are already massively gated because -Major- award (Outside of kobolds, which you need a rather high RPR level now to even qualify), and ontop of that it's really not even that great of a class outside of specifically RP-purposes. It's got strange requirements, and doesn't scale well with the classes that meet those requirements, and it's a massive level tax on any class that wants to properly invest into it. Some of the benefits are nice, +8 str is pretty neat, until you realize you scarified 3 BAB to get it, so your net gain is only 1 AB and some carry weight. Remove the RP flavor of the wings off of this class would basically remove half of the point of the class. You'd just look like a normal guy that can maybe surprise you with an subpar-to-okayish breathweapon.. assuming your not one of the dozens of classes that just evades it because it DC is not very strong.

Epic Dragon Knight is a really neat spell and sure some people misuse it, but people also misuse undead minions or elementals or any other summon by not really properly roleplaying them from time to time.

I also do not think it will remotely revert people's view on dragons to completely remove anything dragon-themed, it'll just end up annoying people who do like the dragon themed stuff, and will likely lead to them wanting to advocate for the things other people enjoy being removed, or them just outright quitting, which is never fun.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Hazard » Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:46 am

godhand- wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:49 am
Hazard wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:34 am
What would the undead variant be?
Perhaps a deathknight or something similiar?
Could be a +sized doom knight model (i dont know if you could put a juicy weapon in its hand too?)
see : https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Death_knight
Okay, I'm sold.

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Re: Dragon Shape

Post by Void » Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:37 am

godhand- wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:49 am
Hazard wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:34 am
What would the undead variant be?
Perhaps a deathknight or something similiar?
Could be a +sized doom knight model (i dont know if you could put a juicy weapon in its hand too?)
see : https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Death_knight
Death Knight is a lower tier threat compared to what EDK calls, and lacks punch. You'd need to bring something far more terrifying to compensate for a missing dracolich.

Few things that come close are Nightcrawler, SHadow of the Void, and then we have stuff like Atropal. But if you summon an Atropal, then the world should end pretty much.
https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/bl ... l%7CUndead
https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/bl ... l%7CUndead
https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/bl ... A%7CUndead
And it is still not the same.

----

I also share Kalthariam's concern.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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