Paladin ReWork Feedback

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ASqueakyPitFiend
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Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by ASqueakyPitFiend » Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:08 am

So I've been testing out the new Paladin Oaths and Divine Smite for a bit now and I have to admit, a lot of it seems fairly unbalanced, namely the Divine Smite ability. I've seen numbers in the 500s on smite and were this limited to Smite Evil or Smite Good, that'd be fine because at least it's controlled within an alignment respect. But now you have paladins who can just smite whoever they feel like regardless of alignment. This becomes silly when you think about it. What logical sense or reason does it make for a LG Paladin, a beacon of Good and Righteousness literally hand picked by a specific God to be their champion, to be able to smite that peaceful NG or LG farmer who has never performed a wicked deed in their life, or gods forbid, smite another paladin?

I was brainstorming this for days and I don't wanna say revert the change on Divine Smite but we should alter it so that Paladin doesn't become this Murder Hobo class that can smite and kill whoever they feel like without any consequence for 300, 400, or 500 damage. My idea was implementing an alignment system to the calculation that when you use Divine Smite, it checks the person's alignment difference to yours on the Good-Evil spectrum and calculates damage modifiers. For example:

LG uses Divine Smite vs an Evil alignment smites for full damage (no modification)
LG uses Smite vs Neutral alignment; damage is reduced by 50%
LG uses Divine Smite vs Good alignment; damage is reduced by 75%

The % is a bit arbitrary and just an example of what I had in mind, but the goal here is to make it so that Paladin can still play towards it's LG alignment and focus on Smiting evil people instead of smiting anyone who disagrees with their favorite Beatles Album but doesn't entirely remove the option or revert the changes already made.

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:42 am

is this 'in the 500s' old greater smiting, or something you are doing with the current system. Keep in mind the damage bonus granted my the great smite feats has been reduced now and also capped.

*EDIT*

also what your proposing about reduced smite damage.. is already the case with the new smite system (not exact numbers but similar application.

I am wondering how much you have actually researched these new changes.

Further edit

As it stands you currently do no bonus damage to someone of the same alignment. And paladins do like only like 20% smite damage to chaotic good and even less against neutral good (like 10 or 15 percent)

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by mjones3 » Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:19 am

This is actually how it works. Its been slow to add to add it onto the wiki but this is part of what was shared to be added to help explain it.


Image

This is a lawful good characters smite. 100% being CE, 10% being NG. In order to use this chart place your alignment at 0% and move around via the alignment chart appropriately. A TN character would never do more than 50% for example

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Watchful Glare
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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Watchful Glare » Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:20 am

Wait... You can actually smite good aligned people, as a Paladin, and it does extra damage to them?

This is news to me, I always thought it just failed
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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Drowboy » Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:41 am

ASqueakyPitFiend wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:08 am
stuff
The maximum bonus damage smite can do is 60. 20 base, 10 from each feat. It already scales as mentioned above, with anyone not directly opposed on both good/evil and law/chaos taking reduced percentages.

How are people consistently doing 500s? It doesn't use WM multipliers anymore either.
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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:23 am

I'm assuming OP is using the old numbers of Smite for the '500s on smite.' The new smite numbers are much more modest and are already reduced when the target's alignment is close to the smiter's alignment.

I feel like more reading and research is needed before giving feedback about paladin 'murderhobos.'

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Kalopsia » Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:11 am

PGCC is not currently up to date with the Paladin balance changes. The smite damage numbers encountered there are vastly higher than those on the main servers.

MRFTW
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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by MRFTW » Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:37 am

Just want to chime in that smiting feels great to use. Very smooth and reactive. Great for interrupting casters too!

No comments on damage as my char is only 6 paladin, but just to say that on a button pushing level, bravo!

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Kalopsia » Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:04 pm

MRFTW wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:37 am
Just want to chime in that smiting feels great to use. Very smooth and reactive. Great for interrupting casters too!

No comments on damage as my char is only 6 paladin, but just to say that on a button pushing level, bravo!
Thanks, very appreciated! You don't want to know how much time I spent fine tuning this to make it feel just right :D

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Flower Power » Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:36 pm

Posting in a week-old thread because I'm too lazy to make a new one.

Came back for a bit purely to try out the new paladin changes.

Paladins are fun to play now that they're not nearly as MAD. The bonus feat on each path means that everyone (except for Perseverance paladins, because Extend Spell wasn't really an essential pick for paladins) are no longer as feat starved as they all get a 'core' feat for free, making playing a non-human paladin less torturously cookie-cutter (even if I expect 99.5% of all paladins will now be 27 Paladin/3 Rogue-Bard-Specialist.)

I've been arguing for putting Smite on a cooldown for years now and I'm really happy to see it happen. I actually use the ability now, and the mechanical changes to it make it feel seamless and good to use. The lower damage numbers are well balanced by how pleasant and responsive it is in gameplay, and any paladin with Extra Smiting (or any Reckoning paladin) still has a fairly good alpha-strike.

I especially like the change from it being strictly Smite Evil/Smite Good, because "LN/CN-characters-leaning-Evil" can no longer repeatedly do Bad Things and just thumb their noses at smiterdins.

My only sticking point is Oath of the Ancients - because, unless I'm mistaken, Paladins can't even invest points into Animal Empathy to take advantage of their scaling bonus - and they gain little to nothing from a dip into any class that can (other than Specialist.) Barkskin on a 3-minute cooldown is nice, but the rest of the bonuses are mostly flavor or fishing for 1's for an effect that can be negated by an utterly ubiquitous buff. It feels flavorful, but in gameplay very much lacking in comparison to every other option.
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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Kalopsia » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:30 pm

Flower Power wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:36 pm
My only sticking point is Oath of the Ancients - because, unless I'm mistaken, Paladins can't even invest points into Animal Empathy to take advantage of their scaling bonus - and they gain little to nothing from a dip into any class that can (other than Specialist.) Barkskin on a 3-minute cooldown is nice, but the rest of the bonuses are mostly flavor or fishing for 1's for an effect that can be negated by an utterly ubiquitous buff. It feels flavorful, but in gameplay very much lacking in comparison to every other option.
Thanks for the feedback! I actually get the Animal Empathy question rather frequently :)
Thing is that most Fey-pact warlocks and OotA Paladins, both of which get the Animal Empathy skill bonus, have a buffed Charisma modifier of around +10, and the big skill update changed Animal Empathy to let all characters invest cross-class ranks.

Now, let's run the numbers for a Druid with maxed Animal Empathy:
Base Ranks: 33
Spell Bonus: +4
Charisma: -1
Total Animal Empathy: 36

For comparison, here's a Paladin with Oath of the Ancients and cross-classed ranks:
Base Ranks: 16
Spell Bonus: 0
Oath Bonus: +9
Charisma: +10
Total Animal Empathy: 35

The above numbers are why I believe the skill remains a usable option and doesn't necessarily have to be a class skill.

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Archnon » Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:04 am

So I'm playing oath of inquisition right now and it is super fun. I'm just about to hit 16 but really like the feel of the class and extra smiting is almost a mandatory feat now with how nice that bonus attack can be. A couple of things that strike me.

1.) Detect evil has always been a bit of a concern on the server and as such it is sort of in a weakened state. With the switch to pure charisma based paladins it is even worse off. The current equation is:
Will save against a DC of 11 + paladin's wisdom modifier + 2 for each Divination spell focus the paladin has.
Now that we are a land of charismatic zealots with high appeal and low wisdom, this is really even more weakened. Perhaps it can be moved to charisma modifier? or perhaps, since it fits the oath of inquisition (inquisitors find out if people are evil right :D ) maybe it could switch to charisma for them, or even get a bonus to it.

2.) The inquisition oath is a brilliantly set up anti-warlock/necromancer. You got all the tools to go at these guys. However, i have noticed that many on the server are switching to fey summons because they are "less evil". However, it really negates some of the benefits associated with the oath. Perhaps some type of bonus against fey, either through bless weapon or a chance to turn fey. Not sure it is even doable but something to consider.

Apologies for turning your feedback thread into suggestions but I am really loving the class so far!

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:35 am

Archnon wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:04 am
So I'm playing oath of inquisition right now and it is super fun. I'm just about to hit 16 but really like the feel of the class and extra smiting is almost a mandatory feat now with how nice that bonus attack can be. A couple of things that strike me.

1.) Detect evil has always been a bit of a concern on the server and as such it is sort of in a weakened state. With the switch to pure charisma based paladins it is even worse off. The current equation is:
Will save against a DC of 11 + paladin's wisdom modifier + 2 for each Divination spell focus the paladin has.
Now that we are a land of charismatic zealots with high appeal and low wisdom, this is really even more weakened. Perhaps it can be moved to charisma modifier? or perhaps, since it fits the oath of inquisition (inquisitors find out if people are evil right :D ) maybe it could switch to charisma for them, or even get a bonus to it.

2.) The inquisition oath is a brilliantly set up anti-warlock/necromancer. You got all the tools to go at these guys. However, i have noticed that many on the server are switching to fey summons because they are "less evil". However, it really negates some of the benefits associated with the oath. Perhaps some type of bonus against fey, either through bless weapon or a chance to turn fey. Not sure it is even doable but something to consider.

Apologies for turning your feedback thread into suggestions but I am really loving the class so far!
Yeah on one hand, you're right that paladins no longer scale off wisdom at all and that detect evil should also logically be moved to charisma.

But on the other hand, their charisma was always higher than wisdom even with vanila paladin and breaking someone's alignment is a pretty big deal.

I think it should remain a flavor focused weak meme ability.
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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:40 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:35 am
Archnon wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:04 am
So I'm playing oath of inquisition right now and it is super fun. I'm just about to hit 16 but really like the feel of the class and extra smiting is almost a mandatory feat now with how nice that bonus attack can be. A couple of things that strike me.

1.) Detect evil has always been a bit of a concern on the server and as such it is sort of in a weakened state. With the switch to pure charisma based paladins it is even worse off. The current equation is:
Will save against a DC of 11 + paladin's wisdom modifier + 2 for each Divination spell focus the paladin has.
Now that we are a land of charismatic zealots with high appeal and low wisdom, this is really even more weakened. Perhaps it can be moved to charisma modifier? or perhaps, since it fits the oath of inquisition (inquisitors find out if people are evil right :D ) maybe it could switch to charisma for them, or even get a bonus to it.

2.) The inquisition oath is a brilliantly set up anti-warlock/necromancer. You got all the tools to go at these guys. However, i have noticed that many on the server are switching to fey summons because they are "less evil". However, it really negates some of the benefits associated with the oath. Perhaps some type of bonus against fey, either through bless weapon or a chance to turn fey. Not sure it is even doable but something to consider.

Apologies for turning your feedback thread into suggestions but I am really loving the class so far!
Yeah on one hand, you're right that paladins no longer scale off wisdom at all and that detect evil should also logically be moved to charisma.

But on the other hand, their charisma was always higher than wisdom even with vanila paladin and breaking someone's alignment is a pretty big deal.

I think it should remain a flavor focused weak meme ability.
It's honestly a grandfathered mechanic that's been "left as is" because no one is inspired to change it, but it isn't breaking anyone's game.

I think it should be removed or made closer to actaul PnP with no save, but only higher levels get detected and you have spells like non detection added. That's of course quite a bit of work for something you might think shouldn't be in the game to begin with.

As it was/is; it's a lowbie catcher which is very much against the spirit of the ability. It shouldn't detect low levels, unless evil related faith class, at all.

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Archnon » Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:57 pm

Thing is alignment isn't a crime. Not the way it is done in D&D. Evil could just mean you are a selfish jerk who purely seeks the expansion of your own power. It would be nice if the DC mattered and it detected Blackguards, palemasters, warlocks, and clerics of evil faith and alignment. Keep it so it just tells you you are near them, not who it is specifically. These classes go above and beyond evil, lore wise.

**edit**
Setting the DC as dependent on target class level would be good too. so.....

SC as 5 + [target class level/2] + charisma modifier/2 + diviniation bonus + Inquisition!!!!! (I dream)
- a level 30 character - 5+15+4+4+? = 28 with 4 base charisma and maxed stats and full div bonus (which no one takes!)
- a level 6 character - 5+3+4+4+? = 16 with 4 base charisma and maxed stats and full div bonus (which no one takes!)

realistically, you would lose 4 on each of these checks from divination, leaving them at 24 and 12 and level 30 and 6 respectively.

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Richrd » Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:04 pm

For me personally the greatest takeaway from the Paladin changes is the fact that crit immunity can now be ignored. Sure, it's only on one Oath and works only half the time. But for me it's good enough to know that there's some holy homeys out there that'll make the life of Pale Masters just that little bit more difficult.

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:51 pm

So funnily enough, I'll agree that 'Detect Evil' is an unneeded and anachronistic command but only because Divine Smite is such a reliable and never-failing indicator of alignment, more so than the old Smite Evil was.

Yes, it works on everyone. But it also follows a strict math. Let's say you have no Great Smite feats and at least 20 paladin levels. If you Divine Smite someone, then deduct the extra Divine Damage from your Oath bonus, a glance at the numbers will let you determine with pinpoint accuracy what their alignment is.

10? True neutral. 4? We've got a chaotic good troublemaker here. 16? Lawful Evil, maybe a Banite or an Asmodean. 20? Step back, brothers, I'm going to unload the rest of my smites.

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Archnon » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:39 pm

Nintendo Entertainment System wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:51 pm
So funnily enough, I'll agree that 'Detect Evil' is an unneeded and anachronistic command but only because Divine Smite is such a reliable and never-failing indicator of alignment, more so than the old Smite Evil was.

Yes, it works on everyone. But it also follows a strict math. Let's say you have no Great Smite feats and at least 20 paladin levels. If you Divine Smite someone, then deduct the extra Divine Damage from your Oath bonus, a glance at the numbers will let you determine with pinpoint accuracy what their alignment is.

10? True neutral. 4? We've got a chaotic good troublemaker here. 16? Lawful Evil, maybe a Banite or an Asmodean. 20? Step back, brothers, I'm going to unload the rest of my smites.
Yes this is totally true. But 1.) The combat log is not ic info. And you don't even need to be a paladin to do this. Plenty of new weapons with alignment based damage that show up in pretty colors and you don't need to do math And 2.) If you are swinging you've likely cut off some fun RP potential involved in investigating.

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Drowboy » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:46 pm

using your sword as a moral compass seems like bad paladin rp
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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:03 pm

As tone is hard to convey over the interwebs, I want to make it clear that my post is tongue-in-cheek.

Obviously, don't slap people with an alignment-detecting bully club.

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Quidix » Thu May 19, 2022 5:49 pm

A bit belated, but could I challenge that harper priest counts towards the the paladin capstone abilities in the rework?

Harper priest already gives tumble while providing some CL progression and plenty of feats; this allows for 21 paladin / 5 harper priest / 4 X which are superior to any 26 paladin / 4 X build. In general, removing tumble from harper priest would be a great change.

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu May 19, 2022 8:00 pm

Quidix wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 5:49 pm
A bit belated, but could I challenge that harper priest counts towards the the paladin capstone abilities in the rework?

Harper priest already gives tumble while providing some CL progression and plenty of feats; this allows for 21 paladin / 5 harper priest / 4 X which are superior to any 26 paladin / 4 X build. In general, removing tumble from harper priest would be a great change.
Harper levels only give you Spellbook CL. They dont not scale with your paladin abilities (unless specifically said so). So while you will get bless weapon +5, you will not get your 26th epic oath power spike as 21 pal 5 harper. I havent crunched the exact numbers to tell you which is superior but I know that the 26th level epic oath is a pretty big deal to trade.
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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Quidix » Thu May 19, 2022 8:32 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:00 pm
Harper levels only give you Spellbook CL. They dont not scale with your paladin abilities (unless specifically said so). So while you will get bless weapon +5, you will not get your 26th epic oath power spike as 21 pal 5 harper. I havent crunched the exact numbers to tell you which is superior but I know that the 26th level epic oath is a pretty big deal to trade.
This is not true, you do get Epic Oath with 21 paladin / 5 harper priest / 4 X. It is also noted in the wikia and I've tested on PGCC. This was mentioned in the original patch notes when it was released:
Higher tiers of the chosen oath are automatically granted at Paladin levels 16 and 26; Harper Priest and Paragon count towards this level requirement.
Last edited by Quidix on Thu May 19, 2022 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Scurvy Cur » Thu May 19, 2022 8:33 pm

Priest and pal do scale the paladin abilities.

The biggest issue is that any significant change to hpriest leaves paladin Harpers in the lurch. Anything that doesn’t scale their spellbook CL is an immediate nonstarter (which is why paragon isn’t an option). If you remove tumble, then paladin needs to grab rogue/bard/spec or go without, which seems fair until you actually crunch out the build.

I’ll preface this with a couple of analysis points from my own extensive releveling through all the oaths when paladin was reworked and my experience playing a paladin before and after:

1. Extend spell is not very useful. It used to be a solid choice because you had nothing of worth to prepare in your level 3 slots, and your level 1 list had divine favor. Extend in that situation allowed Div favor to be extended (useful by itself), and the zoo buffs to be extended as well into the level 3 slots (useful for clearing out level 2 slots).

Post update, neither reason applies anymore because Div favor isn’t on your list. I played for a while with extend post update before quickly concluding it could be profitably swapped for any other combat feat.

2. Planar turning doesn’t do enough by itself to matter in the absence of the 3d2 on turn checks from inquisitor. Inquisitor already gets planar turning.

So with these points in mind, let’s do the math:

2 feats spent on prerequisites you would never buy under any other circumstance (-2 feats)
2 bonus feats gained that go to stuff you will want anyway (one of Div might/Div shield depending on build, plus gsf abj, usually; both might/shield if you’re an inquisitor); (+2 feats)
Armor skin for free, which you will take on any paladin anyway (+1 feat)
1 feat of such marginal use you’d swap it for anything more melee oriented if given the chance (extend spell), and 1 feat that’s only useful with a bonus you get from the oath that gives the feat anyway (planar turning).

And the part most people miss: you do not get the feats at paladin 23 and paladin 26. (-2 feats).

So the final tally is:

4 feats which can be spent on anything
OR
3 useful feats you’d want anyway
2 feats you would probably not take on a paladin in its current state.

In practice this means that, all else equal, hpriest paladin ends up trading something like IKD or ESF:Disc for planar turning and extend spell. I would never make this trade in a vacuum, but hpriest offsets it with tumble access, which allows you to dip fighter for a bit of extra damage at the cost of 1 CL vs dispels or cav (cav is broken, but for reasons that have nothing to do with either paladin or hpriest).

Also worth noting, the hpriest bonus feat list is very narrow. The only feats on it that a paladin would want are Div might, Div shield, and greater spell focus. Thus, if your paladin build isn’t one that would buy two of these feats in epic levels anyway, you trade away 2 paladin epic bonus feats for 2 bonus feats that you spend on pre epic stuff.

Edit: in an ideal world, I think I’d just torpedo Harper and Zhent subclasses, and let people gravitate towards either org explicitly through roleplay. However, for the time being, those classes show every sign of being here to stay.

A lot of good minds have considered precisely the range of pal 21/hpriest 5/X 4 builds that Quidix has come to the table with 5 months later . The consensus reached was that in its current state, they’re close enough to comparable that they oughtnt be disturbed. I tend to agree with that assessment.


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Re: Paladin ReWork Feedback

Post by Quidix » Thu May 19, 2022 8:52 pm

27P/3Bard vs 25P/5HPriest: The harper priest variant is feat neutral (-2+2+1=1 vs 1 from lvl 26) and gains 1CL, but the big difference is that the harper version opens many 4 dip options as it still gets the capstone Epic Oath, which other paladins can't do.

Would you think it is balanced to give Epic Oath at Paladin level 23? That's basically the equivalent to the harper priest situation.
Last edited by Quidix on Thu May 19, 2022 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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