Winter Balance Adjustment

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Hazard
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Hazard » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:00 am

Svrtr wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:12 am
Hazard wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:18 am
MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:00 am


The Tiefling can choose a bloodline at the cost of an increased ECL. Each blood line had at least 1 penalty in an ability score, along with bonuses to other ones.

That penalty has been removed.
Ah, okay. Thank you!
Worth nothing they also had their ECL buffed so the malus removal wasn't entirely a buff. It also means they don't get as high of stats total but don't get the stat reduction. IE half orc would now be +4 STR + 2 CON (though the CON was changed to CHA for aasimar but this is just to high light it) instead of +6 STR +2 CON -2 WIS -2 CHA

So basically it pre sets your gift allocation but you gain the other bonuses (But if I read it wrong then someone correct me please)
So if I'm understanding correctly, aasimar and tieflings are no longer just humans with better stats? They've been nerfed?

Curve
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Curve » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:33 am

Yes, they have been nerfed.

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Hazard
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Hazard » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:49 am

Okay, thanks for clarifying for my potato brain.

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fulminea
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by fulminea » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:15 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:32 pm
Ork wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:47 pm
CoT and hideous blow warlocks are hardly balance-threatening concepts.
When done as old orog they are way stronger than other races doing those builds. The comparison is between races not the general meta.
Elves make better archers, hin make better rogues. Horcs make better barbs and humans make great everythings. This has always been part of the basic concept of this game and part of almost every game having races. Otherwise we would just have flat races.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:25 am

fulminea wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:15 am
Elves make better archers, hin make better rogues. Horcs make better barbs and humans make great everythings. This has always been part of the basic concept of this game and part of almost every game having races. Otherwise we would just have flat races.
Slight advantages and trade-offs were fine but Orog were no such case. Again, I would nerf them differently but clearly they were nerfed this way because of certain stat allocations they enabled...
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Kalthariam
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Kalthariam » Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:50 pm

So in regards to healer path clerics getting armor and weapon proffs back.

Are we going to be seeing any of the currently available clerical gear overhauled?
Are we going to be seeing cleric specific armors and weapons be made available to craft / discover?

I'm personally a fan of my robes, and I'm just a little concerned that if I want to stick with my robed priestess motiff, if I'm just going to be flat gimping myself for doing so?

Obviously this is in regards to the future, not immediately this instant.

False Nibble
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by False Nibble » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:21 pm

I mostly only use the forums for posting bug reports, since I prefer spending my time playing the actual game instead of writing up a wall of text over every balance change. It just seems to me that the current team makes a lot of the changes based on forum feedback and Discord discussions, hence I feel forced to put my own input out there or remain a silent observer to the decisions made by others, but affect the way everyone experiences the game.

I will mostly touch on the subject of nerfing races, and more particularly the races of the Underdark since those have been the target of most of the racial changes of the last balancing updates.

I will first mention the percentage of some of the notable races compared to the total number of characters that exist in the server. These are taken from the latest player counts I found on the forums (September 26 2021).

Human: 41.7%
Elf: 13.2% (All elf types combined [Non Drow])
Drow: 8%
Half-Orc: 4.5%
Genasi: 2.1% (All types)
Orog: 1.9%
Svirfneblin: 1.8%
Hobgoblin: 0.6%
Derro: 0.3%

I think it's clear that most players favor human, be it for its mechanical bonuses, its stat versatility or because it's the easiest race to play for a beginner. There are even more Genasis than Orogs and they are a normal award race. This is likely due to their base race being human so they enjoy the same mechanical benefits (extra feat, skills). I won't deny that it may also be due to RP preferences of most of the players.

I still think this is a good thing to keep in mind while nerfing / changing the less played races to 'balance' them out with the rest. Each race has to have something that makes it attractive to play as, else we might as well just give every race the same stats as human, an extra feat and the same bonus skills and simply play different skin characters. But this sounds too flat and boring to me. I'd rather we had some variety.

Below I will be listing some of the nerfs / changes the races of the Underdark have received over the last updates.

Hobgoblin: -2 DEX
Orog: -1 AC, -2 CHA, +2 DEX
Drow & Derro: Sunbeam/Sunburst cause blindness, Vulnerabilities to Sunlight
Svirfneblin: -1 AC, -2 Unisave
Minotaur: -2 AC, Removed Spring Attack, Reduced to Greater Reward

I will first be comparing the first two against human, since that is what we seem to be balancing everything around. Afterwards I will be giving my feedback on the rest of the changes.

Hobgoblin vs Human: Hobgoblin used to get +2 in three stats so it looked pretty good compared to a human. Now it only gets two, with one of them being forced into CON. So now not only is human more versatile by being able to get +2 in whichever stats it wants, but it also gets an extra feat and 34 extra skillpoints.

Orog vs Human: The only builds an Orog excelled in were divine builds that utilized Divine Might and Shield, since it had both +4 STR and +2 CHA, putting them at +1 AB and Damage over Humans. After the nerf they get exactly the same stats since an Orog has to move 2 points from STR to CHA to end up with the same CHA Mod. At the same time humans get 34 extra skillpoints they can use to max out UMD to use magical items of all kinds while also gaining access to all the Orog weapons that had their racial restriction become bypassable by UMD. Essentially humans became better than Orogs at the only builds Orogs were best at, while also being able to use their weapons.

In the case of a CON Sorc who was aiming for 20 CHA and as much CON as possible, something which Humans were already better at since they could pick +2 CON/CHA from the start, Orogs end up even further behind by having to move 2 points from CON to CHA to end up with the same CHA Mod. Human also has the bonus feat and skills (in case of a non BG Sorc build, Power Attack Orog gets for free is useless).

Drow & Derro: The sunlight penalties seem fine to me, to prevent players from going to the surface during daytime.
The point of the new Sunbeam/Sunburst effects against drow and derro look like an extra tool for Clerics / Wizards / Characters who utilize scrolls.
This seems to mostly benefit Wizards and Scroll Users who couldn't blind drow as easily before. Clerics already had Word of Faith.
The counter to blindness is simple enough so this seems fine to me in its current state. Its initial implementation was way too crippling and I'm glad it’s changed.
Overall, Drow seems like the only race of interest left in the UD right now, so I expect it to be nerfed in the future to tone it down to Human as well. Something I hope will not happen.

Svirfneblin: Svirf received no stat changes so it's fine to me. The AC and Saves reduction likely didn't affect most builds much.

Minotaur: The nerfs were likely justified. However, I just don't understand the logic behind moving award races up and down. This only causes player frustration and the banking of awards until some good race slips down to Greater and back up after a week. This has happened time and time again with both RDD and more recently Firbolg.
Personally, I would hate it had I made a Minotaur, spending a Major Award, just to have it nerfed and reduced in Award Tier some time later.
In general, I would much prefer it if award races were more carefully designed so they're not prone to future nerfs, since it's something special players can't just remake easily should the changes not cut it for them.

After the above changes I mostly expect Underdark races to dwindle even more, with the most notable reduction being at Orogs. Half-Orc is more versatile for any non-Divine build while human is better in the Divine ones. They can both play in the UD as Outcasts as well, so I don't see what Orog is good for anymore.

I hope this feedback reaches some of the team and they do something to introduce more variety to races, instead of making everything the same in the name of balance. This is an RP server after all. Not everything has to be the same.

I am also looking forward to the next player counts to see the result of the above changes in action. Perhaps I will be wrong.

Thanks for your time.

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Kenji
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Kenji » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:24 am

The team agrees that both Orog and Hobgoblin are over-nerfed and will adjust when a properly balanced solution is found.

Something as a note: Orogs get access to powerful weapons such as Orog Greatsword and Bastard Sword (catered to Strength builds). We wanted to expand orogs beyond the str/div build niche and allow them to also build into dex and/or WM without as much penalty. To this end, Orogs will probably only have minor adjustments.

Hobgoblins do not get special racial weapons and will likely be readjusted more than orogs.

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Flower Power
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Flower Power » Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:15 am

Kenji wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:24 am
Something as a note: Orogs get access to powerful weapons such as Orog Greatsword and Bastard Sword (catered to Strength builds). We wanted to expand orogs beyond the str/div build niche and allow them to also build into dex and/or WM without as much penalty. To this end, Orogs will probably only have minor adjustments.
Aren't the UMD requirements for those weapons like, incredibly low now? Like - 30?

With such low barriers to use (since taking high levels of UMD is now very much rewarded again by the current crop of consumables that are in the game) I'm not sure that it's entirely fair to consider having access to said weapons as a justification for keeping a race underadjusted - a significant portion of the playerbase has access to said weapons, simply by taking the UMD they were already going to take to use the fancy consumable items.

Now, if you were to also simultaneously jack up the UMD requirement on Orog weapons, that'd be another story entirely.
what would fred rogers do?

Eyeliner
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Eyeliner » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:12 am

Kenji wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:24 am
The team agrees that both Orog and Hobgoblin are over-nerfed and will adjust when a properly balanced solution is found.

Something as a note: Orogs get access to powerful weapons such as Orog Greatsword and Bastard Sword (catered to Strength builds). We wanted to expand orogs beyond the str/div build niche and allow them to also build into dex and/or WM without as much penalty. To this end, Orogs will probably only have minor adjustments.
I just want to put this out there, sorcerer and some warlock orogs don't care about weapons (they might the armor, or might not) and losing the charisma bonus really stings for them. Maybe there could be a minor gift allowing them to take +2 charisma for -4 strength or something?

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Kenji
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Kenji » Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:58 am

Flower Power wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:15 am
Aren't the UMD requirements for those weapons like, incredibly low now? Like - 30?

With such low barriers to use (since taking high levels of UMD is now very much rewarded again by the current crop of consumables that are in the game) I'm not sure that it's entirely fair to consider having access to said weapons as a justification for keeping a race underadjusted - a significant portion of the playerbase has access to said weapons, simply by taking the UMD they were already going to take to use the fancy consumable items.

Now, if you were to also simultaneously jack up the UMD requirement on Orog weapons, that'd be another story entirely.
Rhetorical questions, ambiguous statements, and anecdotal evidences won’t get us anywhere. Provide the numbers, the builds, and the examples as to why minor adjustments won’t be fair to further reinforce your case and then proceed to a solution so we don’t all waste our own time here with sentiments.

I’m not being contentious, I just want to get this over with and move on to other things other than “balance” for a while.

False Nibble
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by False Nibble » Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:12 pm

Half-Orcs can also use the Orog Weapons without restriction (No UMD Requirement). The only restriction is that they can't craft it themselves.

Humans can easily fit UMD into their builds using the extra skillpoints they get to meet the 30 UMD requirement the Orog Weapons have.

One might say they will have a hard time obtaining these weapons, but this is not the case in my eyes. In the current state of the server, it is way too easy to level a character just by doing the 3 writs per day. So it wouldn't shock me if players simply made Orog characters with the sole purpose of making Orog Weapons for their friends.

In this manner it wouldn't surprise me if even Paladins end up using these weapons, despite them originating from a Monster Race. Paladins often have enough UMD to use Time Stop books so the 30 UMD restriction is not an issue for them.

Considering the STR requirement of the above weapons, the only builds I see Orog having an advantage in is something akin to 25/5 Fighter/WM. The advantage they have is getting +6 Enchantment Bonus with them (since the base item is +4), something only an Orog or Half-Orc is able to do because of the racial restriction and the lack of UMD in this specific build.

However, the same can be said for example about an Elf, Halfling or Gnoll of the same build using an Elfblade, a Dale Sword or Yeenonghu's Hunger respectively. No other race can use these weapons on that build, and while the Orog Weapons are clearly superior, I believe allowing them this build combination without having to cripple the rest of the entire race is fine.

This combination is made easier by the latest DEX increase, but the CHA decrease that came along with it has made most of the existing builds players built upon Orog inferior compared to building them on other races.

For the most part, most other STR based builds can fit a dip into a class with access to UMD, something they would likely do anyway to Tumble dump.

In any case, a Keen Masterly Damask Falchion or Scimitar / Rapier is still optimal in most scenarios. Below is a comparison of them on a supposed character that has improved critical in the respective weapon groups. The purpose of this comparison is to show exactly what bonuses those weapons have, over Masterly Damask weapons and their keened variants.

Orog Bastard Sword vs. Masterly Damask Scimitar:
1d10 Base Damage (But requires Exotic Weapons feat investment)
+4 Enchantment Bonus (+4AB, +4 Physical Damage)
+2 Blunt Damage,
Extra Melee Damage: Blunt,
15 - 20 Threat Range (Already Keened)

vs.

1d6 Base Damage (No feat investment)
+3 Attack Bonus,
+6 Slashing Damage,
15 - 20 Threat Range (12 - 20 Keened)

Given the above it is obvious Orog Bastard Sword is better when compared to the non-keened version of Scimitar. It does however require a feat investment to use. Essentially what it gets is +1 AB and better base damage. The extra damage of both weapons is the same. Despite this, the keened version of scimitar has clearly superior threat range and I would pick that in most cases over the Orog Bastard Sword.

Orog Heavy Sword vs. Masterly Damask Falchion:
2d6 Base Damage
+4 Enchantment Bonus (+4AB, +4 Physical Damage)
+3 Blunt Damage,
Extra Melee Damage: Blunt,
15 - 20 Threat Range (Already Keened)

vs.

2d4 Base Damage
+3 Attack Bonus,
+6 Slashing Damage,
15 - 20 Threat Range (12 - 20 Keened)

Again, Orog Heavy Sword is better against the non-keened version of Falchion. In this case it gets +1 AB, better base damage and +1 damage total from the bonus damages (4 Physical from Enchantment + 3 Blunt = 7 vs. 6).
Despite this, I would again pick the keened version of Falchion over the Orog Heavy Sword, due to its clearly superior threat range.

I won't be commenting on the Extra Melee Damage: Blunt property of the Orog Weapons since that is mostly useful for PvE. It's just nice to have.

I don't deny that making Keened Masterly Damask weapons is not something for everyone as it requires either massive time investment or luck. The Orog Weapons are much easier to obtain. But I don't think it makes sense to adjust Orog racial stats based on its ability to craft powerful racial weapons that are not even exclusive to the race anymore. Anyone can use them as long as they invest some points in UMD.

Again, Half-Orc also gets them without UMD requirements, while at the same time being able to start off with +4 STR +2 DEX -2 CHA (and free Ambidexterity if going for two hander) in the case of a Weapon Master build, compared to an Orog being restricted to +4 STR -2 WIS. So even after the change, Half-Orc is still the better choice when building a WM, while Orog received a nerf in its Divine Build variants as well.

I don't see how the old Orog builds can be salvaged, while at the same time allowing for easier access to Weapon Master builds, without making Orog an ECL +2 race (With +4 STR, -2 DEX, -2 WIS) to allow them to pick a gift of their choice.

In this case they could also start with +6 STR, something that should probably remain exclusive to Ogres. Perhaps they could be locked out of taking certain starting gifts.

Should change like this happen, I imagine a script to change the stats of existing Orogs based on their date of creation would be required, since I expect Orogs made after the racial changes took effect were built with the higher DEX in mind, while all the older Orogs built for CHA. Only the older Orogs should be reverted to -2 DEX +2 CHA in my mind. Hopefully that won’t be troublesome to implement.

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