Winter Balance Adjustment

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Wrips
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Wrips » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:26 pm

Let's calm down a bit.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by LichBait » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:30 pm

Wrips wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:26 pm
Let's calm down a bit.
Agreed! Please. There were some nice things that did come with this too!

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Xerah » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:32 pm

Everyone needs to take a deep breath here.

If you can't give reasonable feed back ("saying I don't like this for X reason" is reasonable and good feedback; making grand claims of some sort of insidious motive is not) then your post will be removed.
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Edens_Fall » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:33 pm

Wrips wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:26 pm
Let's calm down a bit.
Agreed. There are many changes made that provoke emotional responses. None of my PCs escaped, but lets all remember that the desire behind them is to address long standing balance concerns and provide wider enjoyment with classes.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:34 pm

There is no constructive feed back in "these changes diminish my desire to play here" or however it was phrased. Feedback for example is "I think this class has too much ac for XYZ reasons and I think Scry duration is too long/short for ZYX reasons". Just to clarify. An emotional response about how you dont like the changes, without any specific argument presented is not constructive criticism.

I think there is PLENTY of room for feedback on this huge update. I dont think the devs are delusional enough to think there wont be any tweaks after what is likely to be a big shift in the meta. This feedback needs to be presented politely, in a constructive manner, after we've had numbers/facts and/or TIME to play with it for a little while.

Shouting out the the dev team has no consideration for player time is just... disrespectful. And I'm going to call it for what it is. Now lets please stick to constructive feedback about the update because I'd hate to see this thread being locked. We need this thread for the sake of balance and fun.
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by stoneheart- » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:36 pm

Trashkeeper wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:35 pm
Is there a way to possibly convince the dev team that Drow should have access to Bladesong style as well, being technically an elf, and the description itself does not necessarily dictate that Drow elves do not have the same sort of training? Or is it just elves/half-elves permanently?
No. Bladesinging is not just about "being an elf"(technically or not), it's a long and storied elven cultural tradition that drow do not have knowledge of or access to.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Archon » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:36 pm

+ Ranged
Characters with ranged weapons equipped will have their movement speed slowed by 75% for 1.5s upon issuing an order to attack a target. Mounted characters with ranged weapon and Mounted Archery feat will not be subjected to this movement speed penalty. If a character stands still and continues to attack, it will not receive movement speed penalty in the subsequent ranged attacks for as long as it's not moving and reissuing attack orders.
I will focus to this part of the update, having played an archer for about a year, and with archers.

Archer's best defense is to keep moving, because monk/div shield combo is dead, and more or less every archer that exist on the server has low AC. In one pvp encounter I got trashed in a round vs WM, when I was poorly positioned, and unable to get distance fast enough. In other scenarios, if this update had existed, no doubt same would have happened.

Skirmish style is only viable way to run an archer character, and even before this slow update of the now, it was a struggle to keep up pace in a way that you didn't turn into splatter if something goes wrong. There's an impression archer is click and shoot deal, and thus easy to manage, but against mobs in current update your leveling experience will be horrible, and in pvp archer needs to keep moving. That's where most focus goes to in every encounter; mobility, to make sure you either have someone between you and one of countless STR behemoths with 2h weapon, or far enough that you're able to get something done. Slow hit is really rough, and as I see it, if it remains unchanged, archers are dead.

Monk speed was also re-introduced, and previously, if I got pitted against a character with monk speed and monk AC, there was very little that could be done about it. Slow effect of the update will make situation for archers many times worse in scenarios against boosted movement speed classes.

Another problem that I see, is summons. Player Tool 1 stickies summons and they will pursue through stealth and distance. If archer must stop to shoot them or a summoner, their 30 AC will fold immediately (if you are chased by a balor, after being stickied, stopping for breach + WoF is tricky). This with elemental swarms and vampires, particularly, where there's multiple summons wailing on you, and in worst case, a melee at your heel. Previously there was some chance to deal at least with the summon, even if you didn't get a chance to focus on caster out of line of sight.

All in all, slow duration sounds like a death sentence, and slow effect is too heavy as per announcement. Archer play is all about pushing many buttons, including potions and scrolls in today's meta, to be able to counter a meatgrinder. If slow is accounted to this, I don't believe even damage increase bundles make a difference.

I understand the desire to fix a free-shooting exploit, but smaller tweak could have done the same.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Xerah » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:00 pm

If you want to talk about update fatigue or anything of the like, that is for an entirely different topic. That is not feedback on the change. I will be removing the posts that mention this.
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-XXX-
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:01 pm

Archon wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:36 pm
archers are dead.
I wouldn't say that archers are dead.

IMO 75% movement speed rate reduction for 1.5 seconds is still pretty OK when compared to any spellcaster that gets rooted into the same spot for 3 secs (assuming they're hasted) each time they try to cast a spell.

Both archetypes are trying to play the same skirmish game so IMO archers have it still good.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:02 pm

If the reason for changing the name of True Flame was so that players would realize it's purely an OOC name, then I absolutely love that.

Path of True Focus next?

--

As for the upcoming Cleric / Healer changes, am I correct in my understanding that the Healer nerf is only temporary, until the new Cleric paths are fleshed out and released?


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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by RedGiant » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:07 pm

Could the significant number of healer clerics who don't want the path anymore be given the option to revert to base clerics, as seemed to be the original intent?

Changing domains doesn't make much sense for mine, nor does the remaining collection of do-dads when weighed against the crippling negatives of no weapons and no armor.
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by stoneheart- » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:08 pm

Archon wrote:(everything in this post)
Yes, now that there are many accessible ways to boost one's speed even without spells/potions, the slow feels excessive. This sort of nerf was needed years ago when I was playing my archer years ago, when archers were still pretty crazy, but it feels out of date now when they've been nerfed to a more reasonable level quite a few times since then. The slowing effect should really be much shorter, as there are many options for gap closing now. An archer really doesn't have a viable way to achieve "positional advantage" in the game that makes them safer thanks to how nwn works, if you stand on a hill/ledge targets you may be shooting at can move out of LoS easily, so the optimal playing field for a class that would benefit the most for having the advantage of a high ground is actually an open, level battlefield, which leads to all the things Archon mentioned.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Aren » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:09 pm

RedGiant wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:07 pm
Could the significant number of healer clerics who don't want the path anymore be given the option to revert to base clerics, as seemed to be the original intent?

Changing domains doesn't make much sense for mine, nor does the remaining collection of do-dads when weighed against the crippling negatives of no weapons and no armor.
I would be interested in the teams stance on this as well.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by MalKalz » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:14 pm

Aren wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:09 pm
RedGiant wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:07 pm
Could the significant number of healer clerics who don't want the path anymore be given the option to revert to base clerics, as seemed to be the original intent?

Changing domains doesn't make much sense for mine, nor does the remaining collection of do-dads when weighed against the crippling negatives of no weapons and no armor.
I would be interested in the teams stance on this as well.
We've gone over the remake policy many times (especially when there is a large update). Path choices are permanent additions to the character hide; the effort to remove them and ensure there is no bugs with them is a significant investment. We'd also have to develop methods to remove and trace these.

At the time, the answer is no.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by McPunchins » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:15 pm

Archon wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:36 pm
+ Ranged
Characters with ranged weapons equipped will have their movement speed slowed by 75% for 1.5s upon issuing an order to attack a target. Mounted characters with ranged weapon and Mounted Archery feat will not be subjected to this movement speed penalty. If a character stands still and continues to attack, it will not receive movement speed penalty in the subsequent ranged attacks for as long as it's not moving and reissuing attack orders.
I will focus to this part of the update, having played an archer for about a year, and with archers.

...
I believe the biggest issue this helps resolve is more the issue of people who (either intentionally or unintentionally) were breaking the engine by the way they were kiting people. There is some weird mechanics when it comes to attacking a target that is moving and there are definitely cases I've seen both when I played an AA a while back and when I've seen other AAs being played where they are seemingly unattackable because of how the engine perceives where they are at any given moment. This is a huge issue because it basically makes them invincible if done correctly while they are playing a glass cannon.

That being said, movement speed penalties aren't how I'd have handled this, I'd have instead applied a huge ab debuff to ranged attacks if you were moving in the last second or so. That way archers can still run away effectively but they sacrifice the ability to aim accurately by doing so which is pretty accurate to how it would go in real life (and yes I get the concept of this isn't real life). This would discourage people from attack move attack move behavior that can make the engine act wonky but not make ranged characters complete sitting ducks if they ever attack anything.

Just a thought.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Edens_Fall » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:17 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:32 pm
Hey Kenji! I'm sorry in advance if I overlooked it, but are the armor restrictions that former healer path Clerics had for being healer path now removed also? In short can I rebuild a healer path cleric into an armor wearing battle cleric?

Nothing is set in stone yet, but clerics will likely get the treatment similar to Paladin, Warlock, and now Spellsword, where they can select a particular path (we'll find a better word for it) to specialize in.

So far a few are planned, but these can and will change depending on the team's vision and further discussion:
  • Cloistered Cleric - specializes in casting spells, div power modified to do something else, light armor and simple weapon proficiency
  • War Priest - specializes in battle, free combat casting feat, certain weapon proficiency feature possibly shared with Favored Souls
  • Healer - specializes in healing and protective divine magics, healing domain required, no armor or weapon proficiency whatsoever.
To answer the question, if your character decides to become a War Priest (otherwise known as Battle Cleric), then yes, it can wear armor. If it decides to continue as a Healer, then no, no armor allowed.
Dev already answered the question I believe.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Imperatrix » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:39 pm

> I don't like that heal potions being tied to sobriety punishes dex characters more than str characters. I think that dex vs str was in a roughly equal spot after the last god knows how many nerfs to dex. I do however prefer this change to heal pot spamming being completely unrestricted, which was obnoxious and stupid.

> The archer root might have made sense back when archers were destroying everything in PvP. They're not that good anymore. I can't remember the last time I was more afraid of an archer character than, for example, a well built weapon master. I'm not sure that archers are completely dead but I don't think there's much point playing them outside mnk or div AC builds with this change.

> I would rather monks were rebalanced around having no bonus movespeed than adding it back, even if it is in a lesser state.

> Tieflings and aasimar: I'd prefer if they were balanced roughly the same way as genasi are with one +2 ability, another major gift, a lesser gift, and a bunch of flavour stuff. They're now pretty flavourless and boring (more so than before.) Personally I'd think it would be neat if they were mechanically the charisma build version of genasi.

>I either like or am indifferent to every other change.

Overall it's a good update. I particularly like healer clerics finally getting nerfed, scythes being thrown into the trash pile, and heal potion spamming being addressed.

Honourable mention: They're not technically in the "winter balance update" but spellsword looks like it should be fun and I like the item changes.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:24 pm

Archon wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:36 pm
+ Ranged
Characters with ranged weapons equipped will have their movement speed slowed by 75% for 1.5s upon issuing an order to attack a target. Mounted characters with ranged weapon and Mounted Archery feat will not be subjected to this movement speed penalty. If a character stands still and continues to attack, it will not receive movement speed penalty in the subsequent ranged attacks for as long as it's not moving and reissuing attack orders.
I will focus to this part of the update, having played an archer for about a year, and with archers.

Archer's best defense is to keep moving, because monk/div shield combo is dead, and more or less every archer that exist on the server has low AC. In one pvp encounter I got trashed in a round vs WM, when I was poorly positioned, and unable to get distance fast enough. In other scenarios, if this update had existed, no doubt same would have happened.

Skirmish style is only viable way to run an archer character, and even before this slow update of the now, it was a struggle to keep up pace in a way that you didn't turn into splatter if something goes wrong. There's an impression archer is click and shoot deal, and thus easy to manage, but against mobs in current update your leveling experience will be horrible, and in pvp archer needs to keep moving. That's where most focus goes to in every encounter; mobility, to make sure you either have someone between you and one of countless STR behemoths with 2h weapon, or far enough that you're able to get something done. Slow hit is really rough, and as I see it, if it remains unchanged, archers are dead.

Monk speed was also re-introduced, and previously, if I got pitted against a character with monk speed and monk AC, there was very little that could be done about it. Slow effect of the update will make situation for archers many times worse in scenarios against boosted movement speed classes.

Another problem that I see, is summons. Player Tool 1 stickies summons and they will pursue through stealth and distance. If archer must stop to shoot them or a summoner, their 30 AC will fold immediately (if you are chased by a balor, after being stickied, stopping for breach + WoF is tricky). This with elemental swarms and vampires, particularly, where there's multiple summons wailing on you, and in worst case, a melee at your heel. Previously there was some chance to deal at least with the summon, even if you didn't get a chance to focus on caster out of line of sight.

All in all, slow duration sounds like a death sentence, and slow effect is too heavy as per announcement. Archer play is all about pushing many buttons, including potions and scrolls in today's meta, to be able to counter a meatgrinder. If slow is accounted to this, I don't believe even damage increase bundles make a difference.

I understand the desire to fix a free-shooting exploit, but smaller tweak could have done the same.
The slow is short, and is meant to simulate that you are stopping for a second to load and shoot, then keep running. It does not prevent you from shooting arrows out of your back, just slows you down when you do so, and your kiting potential is still (in my opinion, but it's debatable) better than if you actually had to stop and shoot or stop to cast a spell. This is a necessity to keep archery in some kind of balance. You brought up monk speed. It's exactly the same thing. The movement speed had to go first - then you tweak and balance when you got something functional with fair gameplay to work with. Archery damage can always be nerfed or buffed. The fact that it didnt matter until now goes to show something. I'm genuinely getting Summer Monk vibes. I hope Archery will be buffed very carefully after this.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by BurntGnome » Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:14 pm

Im not vibing with the Cav changes at all. I've yet to get my full damage out of spirited charge since the change. I feel like maybe its just too clunky to use in practice. I also invested alot of points into tumble, which is annoying since I'll have to relevel to put those into ride, but atleast ride means something now. But yea, the spirited charge changes? It makes me feel less useful, which I was already less useful considering how much content is indoors. I understand that this was changed due to an engine problem of some sort, but surely there is another way to correct it? I feel like this limits my output below reasonable damage in the few areas I can actually shine.

On a slightly unrelated note, I rather enjoyed being able to ride indoors as a gnomish cav - our ponies are smaller than most characters so it made sense to me.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Duchess Says » Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:49 pm

Sorry to be obtuse but there's conflicting info on this. Can I confirm that existing healers will in the future have an opportunity to switch to a new path when those are available?

Will domain tokens also be given out at some point so those who don't have healing domain and want to keep the overheal could take it?

Deciding whether to remake a character before they're much further along, thanks.

Oh and out of curiosity, are domain powers permanently disabled (protection sanctuary etc) or is there intention to bring them back?

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by dallion43 » Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:07 pm

wrote: + Drow
Sun-related spells now incur Sunlight penalties for Drow
I am sure there is a valid reason behind this change but please consider making this change a bit less harsh in one way or another.
Maybe 12 sec immunity?

Just to note, I never played a drow PC until now and not intend to any time soon.
The thing is Anduur already feels like Cordor at times with all the humans, etc, around (imho), and having less drow around will only make it worse.
We all here for RP and people should play drow/orog for the race RP but mechanical side affects every one of us and our decisions to some level. (Especially when it goes beyond a simple -1AC, -2Cha race rebalance).

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The *Winter Balance Adjustment*, as a whole, probably took a mountain of careful optimization consideration and coding. Thank you for your hard work.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Kenji » Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:43 am

McPunchins wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:15 pm
That being said, movement speed penalties aren't how I'd have handled this, I'd have instead applied a huge ab debuff to ranged attacks if you were moving in the last second or so. That way archers can still run away effectively but they sacrifice the ability to aim accurately by doing so which is pretty accurate to how it would go in real life (and yes I get the concept of this isn't real life). This would discourage people from attack move attack move behavior that can make the engine act wonky but not make ranged characters complete sitting ducks if they ever attack anything.
There were many approaches to discourage ranged kiting discussed among the team. One of the approach was if movement is detected (on issuing a movement order) while a character is attacking with a ranged weapon (within, say, a 0.5-second timeframe), the AB is reduced by 8. To my understanding and from my investigation, script-wise this meant getting multiple events to detect, calculate, and set up the character for the AB decrease. It would involve changes to numerous scripts and anything that is tied to On-hit or On-attack commands will be resource-intensive. This would likely result in TMI errors and is not feasible in the end. Other more capable contributors may find a better way to approach this script-wise and they have my full support to replace our current system if they do find a way.

We also had another approach where we'd introduce a ranged combat modal (including Rapid Shot or Flurry of Attack for Shurikens) to reduce the ranged AB penalty while incurring a movement speed penalty. Otherwise, it is assumed that all ranged characters are kiting and will receive -8 AB when a ranged weapon is equipped unless the archer is in the aforementioned combat modals to avoid the penalty. In general, this is probably the least resource-intensive way but it does require more micromanagement for the archer players. Given how much an archer player has to do already, this was a sure-fire way to make sure no one enjoys ranged gameplay again.

The current approach to movement speed reduction is 5 lines worth of code in 1 script. The resource cost, as well as the simplicity of the approach script-side, made this the most favorable approach for the team at the moment.
Imperatrix wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:39 pm
> The archer root might have made sense back when archers were destroying everything in PvP. They're not that good anymore. I can't remember the last time I was more afraid of an archer character than, for example, a well built weapon master. I'm not sure that archers are completely dead but I don't think there's much point playing them outside mnk or div AC builds with this change.
The kiting needed to be addressed before further changes should be made again, be it buffs or nerfs. The complex template damage creeps and ranger/monk/div 69AC archer build perpetuated the "because of that 1 build, we can't really buff every other ranged builds" bottleneck design space. Much like monk UBAB dip was defining the meta too much where it's very hard to design anything without it defaulting to monk dips for optimal builds. The glaring and near-exploit status ranged kiting now being addressed, we can make easier adjustments to ranged.

Keep in mind that mounted archery (with 2-feat investment) retains mobility, though the horse archers are encouraged to wield shortbows and light crossbows to not receive heavy penalties to AB and they will need to be mounted. This probably raises the concern of archers being more viable and competitive on the surface than the UD.

To address this, eventually, mounts will be accessible to both UD and surface characters as well as indoor areas and caves, albeit not with all the movement speed bonus one would enjoy in open space.

The team will be making further adjustments on both damage and AB now that we have distinct ranged styles: on-foot 1h/shield, on-foot 2h launchers, mounted 1h/shield, and mounted 2h launchers.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by ReverentBlade » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:38 am

Was the archery snare actually physically playtested at all before implementation, or was it thrown in there from endless Discord debates and theorycrafting about PvP? Regardless of if it is "balanced" or not on paper, it -feels- really miserable to use. The viability of solo archer in PvE (the game the majority of your playerbase actually cares about) is significantly hindered, and it wasn't an easy playstyle to begin with.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by jomonog » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:16 am

I've never played an archer to any high level, just tinkered with it occasionally and given up on the run and gun gamestyle. While i do understand the rationale for the PVP slow, I imagine it has made it much harder now PVE to level solo and have sympathy for those ranged players whose primary focus is PVE. I wonder if in future there would be some way to code it so the slow only happens PVP and not generally against mobs in PVE? Otherwise good job on the changes, keeping things interesting as always and can see that alot of thought has gone into trying to balance the classes with an eye to further changes if needed.

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