Winter Balance Adjustment

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Kenji
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Kenji » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:34 am

jomonog wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:16 am
I've never played an archer to any high level, just tinkered with it occasionally and given up on the run and gun gamestyle. While i do understand the rationale for the PVP slow, I imagine it has made it much harder now PVE to level solo and have sympathy for those ranged players whose primary focus is PVE. I wonder if in future there would be some way to code it so the slow only happens PVP and not generally against mobs in PVE? Otherwise good job on the changes, keeping things interesting as always and can see that alot of thought has gone into trying to balance the classes with an eye to further changes if needed.
ReverentBlade wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:38 am
Was the archery snare actually physically playtested at all before implementation, or was it thrown in there from endless Discord debates and theorycrafting about PvP? Regardless of if it is "balanced" or not on paper, it -feels- really miserable to use. The viability of solo archer in PvE (the game the majority of your playerbase actually cares about) is significantly hindered, and it wasn't an easy playstyle to begin with.
Refer to the 2nd response: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=36131#p283919

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by jomonog » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:06 am

Sorry missed that, but that sounds like a good way forward

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Hazard » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:55 am

The update mentions "Bloodline malus removed"
What does that mean?

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by McPunchins » Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:12 am

Kenji wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:43 am
McPunchins wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:15 pm
That being said, movement speed penalties aren't how I'd have handled this, I'd have instead applied a huge ab debuff to ranged attacks if you were moving in the last second or so. That way archers can still run away effectively but they sacrifice the ability to aim accurately by doing so which is pretty accurate to how it would go in real life (and yes I get the concept of this isn't real life). This would discourage people from attack move attack move behavior that can make the engine act wonky but not make ranged characters complete sitting ducks if they ever attack anything.
There were many approaches to discourage ranged kiting discussed among the team. One of the approach was if movement is detected (on issuing a movement order) while a character is attacking with a ranged weapon (within, say, a 0.5-second timeframe), the AB is reduced by 8. To my understanding and from my investigation, script-wise this meant getting multiple events to detect, calculate, and set up the character for the AB decrease. It would involve changes to numerous scripts and anything that is tied to On-hit or On-attack commands will be resource-intensive. This would likely result in TMI errors and is not feasible in the end. Other more capable contributors may find a better way to approach this script-wise and they have my full support to replace our current system if they do find a way.

We also had another approach where we'd introduce a ranged combat modal (including Rapid Shot or Flurry of Attack for Shurikens) to reduce the ranged AB penalty while incurring a movement speed penalty. Otherwise, it is assumed that all ranged characters are kiting and will receive -8 AB when a ranged weapon is equipped unless the archer is in the aforementioned combat modals to avoid the penalty. In general, this is probably the least resource-intensive way but it does require more micromanagement for the archer players. Given how much an archer player has to do already, this was a sure-fire way to make sure no one enjoys ranged gameplay again.

The current approach to movement speed reduction is 5 lines worth of code in 1 script. The resource cost, as well as the simplicity of the approach script-side, made this the most favorable approach for the team at the moment.
Oh there is by no means a perfect way to handle this, I get ya on that. I'm just glad something was done in general about it. I get how AA players feel but honestly this needed to happen. Honestly I've played with the bow mechanics since the patch and the movement slow is almost unnoticeable in PvE which leads me to think it's probably no where near as bad as people are claiming in PvP either especially given 1 and a half seconds is literally a quarter of a round so it isn't like they're getting rooted it's just slowing them down slightly.

As I've stated in prior posts my biggest concern with the whole update honestly is the Drow change and merely because I keep being told the spells ignore SR and stuff so you basically always get hit with the penalty if you aren't in darkness even if you resist or save against the spell with things like improved evasion and are otherwise unaffected by it. If this is the case then the change is incredibly abusable and needs to be reverted or fixed. If it isn't the case I think some clarification needs to happen with the community on the full implications so that people stop saying it is and I'm less worried about the change even though I don't feel it really was needed personally (which is obviously subjective so meaningless in the grand scheme).

But yeah Archers getting a 1/4 round movement penalty does help fix the issue of people blatantly abusing mechanical issues with the engine to be unattackable at least a bit and hopefully it prevents gimmicky nonsense gameplay from archers and makes them actually consider whether they need more defensive abilities in their arsenal and how to get them.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Exordius » Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:04 am

Id like confirmation as well... will healers eventually be able to chose a new path once they are ready or should i just remake yet again?

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Mitochon17 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:21 pm

Is the new passive base Con damage scaling supposed to cap Mighty Rage regen at 3+4 for pure Barbs? Because it currently isn't, if you have more Con, you use the old Con damage scaling. At 20 con its 3+5, and so on as you increase Con to a max of 3+7.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Zanithar » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:46 am

Duplicate
Last edited by Zanithar on Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Zanithar » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:47 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:02 pm
As for the upcoming Cleric / Healer changes, am I correct in my understanding that the Healer nerf is only temporary, until the new Cleric paths are fleshed out and released?
As this was not answered I will lean in with, hopefully, the right answer. This has been answered/addressed many times, Kenji even linked his prior (Fall release) essay on it.

Healer as it is today is being gutted, it’s abilities are being removed, nerfed and divided up amongst the domains as domain specific powers. The following outlines the reasoning and approach:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=35420&p=278504#p278504

So, it is not getting unnerfed. The nerfing will actuality continue until the path is gone and replaced with a new path more inline with the current balance vision.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:09 pm

Zanithar wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:47 am
MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:02 pm
As for the upcoming Cleric / Healer changes, am I correct in my understanding that the Healer nerf is only temporary, until the new Cleric paths are fleshed out and released?
As this was not answered I will lean in with, hopefully, the right answer. This has been answered/addressed many times, Kenji even linked his prior (Fall release) essay on it.

Healer as it is today is being gutted, it’s abilities are being removed, nerfed and divided up amongst the domains as domain specific powers. The following outlines the reasoning and approach:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=35420&p=278504#p278504

So, it is not getting unnerfed. The nerfing will actuality continue until the path is gone and replaced with a new path more inline with the current balance vision.
This might answer your question: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=36189

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by MRFTW » Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:29 am

Nitro wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:28 pm
Also, the TF name change is literally just cosmetic on an OOC level, you can still play them as a true flame follower of kossuth, it's not like the names we see on the class list are IC information.
Are you sure about that?

https://i.imgur.com/FsB6aQA.png

Though I think for a TF, this might just read "Sorceror" or whatever. Good job I wasn't in a party when I bumped into this guy 1 screen away from the paladin hub, isn't it?

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:00 am

Hazard wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:55 am
The update mentions "Bloodline malus removed"
What does that mean?
The Tiefling can choose a bloodline at the cost of an increased ECL. Each blood line had at least 1 penalty in an ability score, along with bonuses to other ones.

That penalty has been removed.


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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Hazard » Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:18 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:00 am
Hazard wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:55 am
The update mentions "Bloodline malus removed"
What does that mean?
The Tiefling can choose a bloodline at the cost of an increased ECL. Each blood line had at least 1 penalty in an ability score, along with bonuses to other ones.

That penalty has been removed.
Ah, okay. Thank you!

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Svrtr » Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:12 am

Hazard wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:18 am
MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:00 am
Hazard wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:55 am
The update mentions "Bloodline malus removed"
What does that mean?
The Tiefling can choose a bloodline at the cost of an increased ECL. Each blood line had at least 1 penalty in an ability score, along with bonuses to other ones.

That penalty has been removed.
Ah, okay. Thank you!
Worth nothing they also had their ECL buffed so the malus removal wasn't entirely a buff. It also means they don't get as high of stats total but don't get the stat reduction. IE half orc would now be +4 STR + 2 CON (though the CON was changed to CHA for aasimar but this is just to high light it) instead of +6 STR +2 CON -2 WIS -2 CHA

So basically it pre sets your gift allocation but you gain the other bonuses (But if I read it wrong then someone correct me please)

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:13 am

Svrtr wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:12 am
Hazard wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:18 am
MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:00 am


The Tiefling can choose a bloodline at the cost of an increased ECL. Each blood line had at least 1 penalty in an ability score, along with bonuses to other ones.

That penalty has been removed.
Ah, okay. Thank you!
Worth nothing they also had their ECL buffed so the malus removal wasn't entirely a buff. It also means they don't get as high of stats total but don't get the stat reduction. IE half orc would now be +4 STR + 2 CON (though the CON was changed to CHA for aasimar but this is just to high light it) instead of +6 STR +2 CON -2 WIS -2 CHA

So basically it pre sets your gift allocation but you gain the other bonuses (But if I read it wrong then someone correct me please)
Yep. I don't see it as a buff at all, but regardless, I wasn't the biggest fan of the change. I feel like tiefling bloodlines should come with weaknesses as well as strengths.


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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Svrtr » Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:16 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:13 am


Yep. I don't see it as a buff at all, but regardless, I wasn't the biggest fan of the change. I feel like tiefling bloodlines should come with weaknesses as well as strengths.
Granted it wasn't meant to be. It was entirely meant to reduce the number bloat on these 20 CON 44 STR barb HOrcs. It has been stated in the past the reward races aren't meant to provide such a significant numeric investment but are meant to be mostly flavorful.

Think of it this way. A human aasimar is the same statistically as a non human aasimar but gets +2 spot, +2 listen, and 15% DI vs electric, cold, and fire. That is 3x the value of gift of hardiness there (even if the gift isn't amazing) and you get the right to emphasize your small hint of planar blood.

So its still stronger, just not absurdly so which is a good thing and follows the intent

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:00 am

ECL should never be viewed as a means to balance out mechanical features IMO.

Doing that offers a way for players to eat their cake and keep it too, as they're gaining an option with all upside at lvl 30 at the cost of a slightly slower character progression (which is a minor inconvenience at most, considering writs).

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Mattamue » Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:14 am

Higher ecl also means less gifts.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by wulfburk » Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:57 pm

is the new template scaling in game? I'm still only getting bundles of damask, instead of masterly damask, with create ammunition, no matter the weapon, and i'm lvl 30. Also, my deafening clang is only +4 instead of +5.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Barkoneus » Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:38 pm

wulfburk wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:57 pm
is the new template scaling in game? I'm still only getting bundles of damask, instead of masterly damask, with create ammunition, no matter the weapon, and i'm lvl 30. Also, my deafening clang is only +4 instead of +5.
Bundles still at damask/+3 for my lvl30 archer as well...

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by fulminea » Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:43 pm

Here is my personal Feedback how I think the update might have gone abit too far for the orog subrace.

I am not going to talk about drow or elf here since that is a whole thread on its own. I am also not talking about reward races.

With that out of the way, here is my Feedback:

Upon studying the races and latest changes something Stuck out to me. Humans have been standing out as one of the most abundant and most flexible and strongest races. Having 2 Greater gifts and 1 free feat I do not understand how subraces like orog needed the CHA nerf specifically in the face of that. I Just looked at the list of character builds on the Wiki and noticed the vast majority is for human. That is probably for a very good reason and not just because they are the most relatable.

With this in mind my issue is the reduction of orog CHA. I am not talking about any other aspects of the orog nerf.

With the current change there is no reason to pick an orog over a horc, unless you are interested to make a build with for example a bg dip. But why would you now make a bg build with an orog if you can make a superior bg human that has no problem adding power attack to their choice of feats. Even before the nerf you could easily make an equally powerful human with bg or paladin levels.

For All CHA dependent builds, human is superior.At least with horc you get 1 free Greater gift, making them more versatile than orog for all non-CHA Dependent builds.

Literaly any build I could think of would be more ideal either picking human or horc instead of orog, the free power attack orog gets is easily compensated by the human extra feat to achieve divine feats.

This limits competetive choices for orogs tremendously.

If the CHA reduction of orog really had to be done, I would prefer to keep the -4 dex to base stats, reduce the ECL and additionally grant + 1 Greater Gift. The damage reduction and immunities orog get seem relatively irrelevant to me when compared to other races. My proposal would put them on the same level as horcs which get -4 Cha + 1 greater gift. In either case the raise of -4 dex to -2 dex effectively does not benefit the majority of future orog builds that will likely be using full plate armour.

Anyway this was my personal opinion. I am not a build expert. I am not a player with a 15 year nwn experience. I just liked my character and now its dead for reasons that I been tryng to understand for the past few days prior posting this.

My hope is that there might come some mild adjustments to the orog race. Otherwise I genuinely hope you can help me make sense of it.

Thanks for reading.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Ork » Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:30 pm

The CHA nerf for orogs is beyond brutal in all honesty.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:48 am

Ork wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:30 pm
The CHA nerf for orogs is beyond brutal in all honesty.
Orog is basically half orc with their 2 gifts forced into STR and CHA, trading ambidexterity for power attack, so they now come out feat AND stat neutral with human when going for div builds and are pretty useless and suboptimal for anything else. Just to clarify why it is a brutal nerf.

Maybe a better angle of approach would be to nerf the AC and DI, and not touch the stats (precisely to avoid grandfathering and jealousy, etc etc) but the stats *were* always the problem because they enable too strong Cot builds and Hideous blow warlocks who can still reach EDR 3. So I dont know how I'd nerf them better, but it IS a brutal nerf.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by fulminea » Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:14 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:48 am
Ork wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:30 pm
The CHA nerf for orogs is beyond brutal in all honesty.
Orog is basically half orc with their 2 gifts forced into STR and CHA, trading ambidexterity for power attack, so they now come out feat AND stat neutral with human
In my eyes Orogs are coming down below human in terms of stats with the current nerf. They get no gifts and the dex raise does not compensate anything for orog builds since they will likely use full plate armour, limiting their dex Bonus always to 1.

Human has 2 free gifts, outmatching current orog stats. gThey never had a stat disadvantage to orog in terms of div dip builds to begin with.
Cot was already nerfed tremendously and any human cot outmatches orog cot build with the additional orog nerf.

As for hideous EDR III blow warlorocks I would compare them to EDR III barb orogs out there that are also achievable with dwarf, human and horc that will do alot better in terms of ab, damage output, HP, even AC unless the warlock is div dipping.

And with the additional rage i would would say if hideous blowrogs are a problem, then those barbs definitely are.

But I do not think they are, warlorog meleers with bg dip are not very competetive against any "traditional" melee build. They have an inherent AB disadvantage. And there are many versatile ways to compete against those barbs too.

The spells and self buffs of the melee lock are useful but unless you go 30 warlock you are probably not going to resort to them. If you go 30 melee warlock youll be so stripped for feats that you will likely lack some of the Essential feats you would want for a good melee build. The offensive spells may be great for pve but the hideourog blowlock is ill adviced using them in combat. Plus hideous blow itself to my knowledge cant be quickened like eldrtich blast and is just too slow to use it well in pvp.

So Overall while the melee warlock orog is okay, it does not stand out as an optimal or very exceptionally good melee pvp build to me.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Ork » Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:47 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:48 am
Ork wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:30 pm
The CHA nerf for orogs is beyond brutal in all honesty.
Orog is basically half orc with their 2 gifts forced into STR and CHA, trading ambidexterity for power attack, so they now come out feat AND stat neutral with human when going for div builds and are pretty useless and suboptimal for anything else. Just to clarify why it is a brutal nerf.

Maybe a better angle of approach would be to nerf the AC and DI, and not touch the stats (precisely to avoid grandfathering and jealousy, etc etc) but the stats *were* always the problem because they enable too strong Cot builds and Hideous blow warlocks who can still reach EDR 3. So I dont know how I'd nerf them better, but it IS a brutal nerf.
I mean just read what you just wrote. CoT and hideous blow warlocks are hardly balance-threatening concepts.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:32 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:47 pm
CoT and hideous blow warlocks are hardly balance-threatening concepts.
When done as old orog they are way stronger than other races doing those builds. The comparison is between races not the general meta.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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