Winter Balance Adjustment

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Vangrave
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Vangrave » Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:32 pm

Just some quick thoughts about a few of the changes -

Shaman - Fun changes. I never played one, but it's good to see shaman being able to do something other than zen archery or watch its elementals all day. I'm all for anything that increases interactivity for classes.

Cleric Domains - Always been a big fan of the domain adjustment. Cleric magic is supposed to vary wildly between deities after all, so it's good to see Arelith moving in that direction making clerics feel more thematic.

Hexblade - Numbers adjustments. The only thing I always worry about with hexblade is if they get balanced around accursed chains - that armor is super difficult to make with the paladin chain requirement and various required components. Probably only available to factions and serious grinders.

Ranged Kiting - True mastery of the bow being the ability to shoot arrows out of your butt while running away was kind of silly so good change, I think. Probably need to do something to buff low level ranged chars in PvE with the change.

Monk - I don't know if there's any way to properly balance monks according to 3e. I think I'd do something for monk speed involving sprint myself rather than having always on movement speed. Maybe look to pathfinder's unchained monk at some point. As is they just sit on the border between too strong and too weak. Either punching someone for 2 damage then getting knocked over and killed or chasing down and obliterating undergeared people.

Pale master - Not 100% sure it's needed these days since melee PM is kind of on the outs, but I'm glad it didn't destroy casters. PM and enchanter are the only wizard niches left vs sorc.

Warlock - Undying nerf kind of destroys the pact IMO. Seriously, just stick a fork in it, it's done. Everything else works better as a dex blast pact now, and I don't see any reason to take cha undying over cha fey when fey has far, far better spells. There's just zero synergy in Undying's spells for a cha build. Sure, they have DCs, but their effects are not worth the time spent casting. Sure you can heal your 3 pets, but fey can dominate a couple pets and summon a third and you're sitting at 3 pets you can heal AND you can heal party members and yourself. Meanwhile Undying is sitting there using obviously evil magic to heal obviously evil summons while using what are frankly quite terrible pact spells. The pact's lack of useful abilities was counterbalanced by easy access to fast vampire pets. Now that they don't have those, the pact needs something, because 3 minute cloudkill, 3 minute negative energy burst, and a bunch of DC spells that don't end combat aren't too great on a class that can blast.

Maybe make energy drain have no save for part of its effect or let undying heal itself with negative energy. As it is, though, you're better off shooting positive energy so you can heal yourself and your team while having actual useful pact spells.

Aasimar changes - Now I can't RP as the ugliest 6 cha aasimar in Faerun :(

Heal Pot changes - Glad there's something stopping people from bursting their bladders guzzling heal potions, though I'm concerned it might be an unintentional? nerf to casters. Most of them have to keep at lower sobriety in order to rest often for restoring spells. Now this means they can only drink one or two heal pots before hitting drunk compared to non-casters, who will be able to drink 3-4 times that number before getting drunk. Not sure if it's a problem or not, but something to note.

Turn Undead - This one's been a long time coming. I couldn't have imagined playing a vampire before.

Divine Shield - It's good to see it has actual value again. With the halved duration there was just no reason to use it.

Sunlight/Sunburst - Sounds like Abyssal, Night Hag, and Infernal warlocks will become popular in the Underdark. I think I'd only make it function at half duration on a save when on the surface and leave it as a save effect in the Underdark. It makes sense to me that Drow should have advantage in the Underdark while surfacers would have advantage on the surface. This makes it seem to me that surfacers have the advantage in both areas, which doesn't make much sense to me intuitively.

Planar Conduit - Good to see the ranged weapons go. It was a fun idea but it just didn't work out.

Nitro
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Nitro » Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:35 pm

fulminea wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:31 pm
When I logged in with my orog I had not known of this update, now it is sitting at level 1 in the arelith entry area.

Will it be save an this state or do I have to bring to level 2 ?

I would like not to touch the levels rightnow since I will have to look at her build again and stuff.
IIRC the advice given by the team with previous relevels was that you should level it to 2 before logging off to avoid stuff getting wonky.

Yvesza
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Yvesza » Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:36 pm

I feel like the penalty for sunlight is quite hefty, especially given that you can cast sunlight from scrolls and not care at all about the save (Two rounds of huge penalties, even on a successful save).

The conduit change is great, it makes it feel like a more competitive choice beside mummy dust and now that all of the summons are on par with one another it's no longer soft locked to due to alignment. It still has a weakness to WoF on non-divine classes but that feels like nit picking on an otherwise pretty great buff.

I like the shaman changes, I'm not sure that the spell list changes are going to do much for anyone but the exceptionally rare shaman/barbarian but they might just become a little more common with the latest buffs which is great.

Wings of Peace
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Wings of Peace » Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:42 pm

I like that drow are irrelevant now unless they build to the right niche.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Arienette » Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:49 pm

Void wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:16 pm
Kenji wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:28 am
+ Ranged
Characters with ranged weapons equipped will have their movement speed slowed by 75% for 1.5s upon issuing an order to attack a target. Mounted characters with ranged weapon and Mounted Archery feat will not be subjected to this movement speed penalty. If a character stands still and continues to attack, it will not receive movement speed penalty in the subsequent ranged attacks for as long as it's not moving and reissuing attack orders.
I believe this was a royally bad idea.
Ranged attackers were already taking backseat compared to melee ones and mages.
I would prefer to see more quests, more areas, more prcs, more monsters, rather than this.
Kenji wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:28 am
+ Path of True Fire
OOC Path of "True Flame" or "True Fire" now renamed to "True Frost" (no mechanical changes, just the OOC name change in path selection)
It was common to play true flame as a follower of Kossuth.
Yet here we go. If it is an "OOC change" that "Means nothing", then what was its point?

---

At this point I'd prefer if there were no more "balance changes", ever. As it is slowly turns into a running joke that any character I try gets screwed over by some mechanical change out of the blue, and it is getting tiresome. The first ever character I played was a Kensai, that swiftly got spot bonus removed and then got removed from the server altogether. This sort of things keeps happening all the time for the past few years.

A RP server should provide incentive for long term play, and constant flux mechanics flux encourages short term throwaway characters instead, as no class is safe from being turned upside down.

There are many other ways to create interesting content rather than overhauling everything all the time.
Archons now have bettter offense and worse defense.

AB went up but damage immunity went down

Void
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Void » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:09 pm

Arienette wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:49 pm
Archons now have bettter offense and worse defense.

AB went up but damage immunity went down
My char is slaad user.

Update post implies that they lost half of their offense and some defense too.
I'll see details later today while playing, but looks like it will be another royal pain out of nowhere to deal with.

I suppose one thing left to try is taking Dragon Knight or Mummy Dust, since this way they'll surely get nerfed or removed too.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:13 pm

Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:42 pm
I like that drow are irrelevant now unless they build to the right niche.
Welcome to Every Other Race In The Game.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Wings of Peace
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Wings of Peace » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:16 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:13 pm
Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:42 pm
I like that drow are irrelevant now unless they build to the right niche.
Welcome to Every Other Race In The Game.
Which race do you consider as easily hard shutdown?

AstralUniverse
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:20 pm

Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:16 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:13 pm
Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:42 pm
I like that drow are irrelevant now unless they build to the right niche.
Welcome to Every Other Race In The Game.
Which race do you consider as easily hard shutdown?
No no, I'm not going into that. But you can be sure that every race has it's optimal builds and right niches.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Wings of Peace
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Wings of Peace » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:21 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:20 pm
Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:16 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:13 pm

Welcome to Every Other Race In The Game.
Which race do you consider as easily hard shutdown?
No no, I'm not going into that. But you can be sure that every race has it's optimal builds and right niches.
You sounded like you had given it some thought. I just want to know what race you feel has equivalently severe and accessible disadvantages?

AstralUniverse
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:24 pm

Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:21 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:20 pm
Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:16 pm


Which race do you consider as easily hard shutdown?
No no, I'm not going into that. But you can be sure that every race has it's optimal builds and right niches.
You sounded like you had given it some thought. I just want to know what race you feel has equivalently severe and accessible disadvantages?
Just on top of my head? Small races come to mind. Humans are -1 ab compared to elves and horcs at the very least. Some builds are literally impossible to do unless you're a Drow or pre nerf Orog. I gave it *some* thought and other people also gave it some thought. Just not in regards to your argument specifically. And I'm done here.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Wings of Peace
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Wings of Peace » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:25 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:24 pm
Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:21 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:20 pm

No no, I'm not going into that. But you can be sure that every race has it's optimal builds and right niches.
You sounded like you had given it some thought. I just want to know what race you feel has equivalently severe and accessible disadvantages?
Just on top of my head? Small races come to mind. Humans are -1 ab compared to elves and horcs at the very least. Some builds are literally impossible to do unless you're a Drow or pre nerf Orog. I gave it *some* thought and other people also gave it some thought. Just not in regards to your argument specifically. And I'm done here.
Small races, humans, and half orcs, in your mind are as handicapped as drow are right now?

AstralUniverse
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:28 pm

Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:25 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:24 pm
Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:21 pm


You sounded like you had given it some thought. I just want to know what race you feel has equivalently severe and accessible disadvantages?
Just on top of my head? Small races come to mind. Humans are -1 ab compared to elves and horcs at the very least. Some builds are literally impossible to do unless you're a Drow or pre nerf Orog. I gave it *some* thought and other people also gave it some thought. Just not in regards to your argument specifically. And I'm done here.
Small races, humans, and half orcs, in your mind are as handicapped as drow are right now?
ok ok
a petition to add a craftable Sunglasses +5. Drow artist only. Do you want to get this thread locked? I said I'm done here.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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MissEvelyn
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:29 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:57 am
.Healer:
So basically picking this path now only gives -respite at 28 and that's it?
Pretty much. The biggest reason to sacrifice your proficiencies for Healer has been stripped away. Overheal being tied to only 2 domains and not the path at large is very, very unfortunate. Lifeline by itself is meh, Respite is lovely but requires you stick with all 30 levels as a Healer.

And Overheal itself has been severely nerfed, making it almost 3 times weaker than it was before, and a sad afterthought while you're leveling.

The fun support aspect of Healer has, sadly, been gutted.


Also this when?
Kenji wrote:For those concerned about charisma clerics, I also have a solution in mind. Will it be the perfect solution that makes everyone happy? Likely not. But I'm confident that with the coming changes, charisma clerics will be just as viable as the str, dex, wis, or even con clerics.


Wings of Peace
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Wings of Peace » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:30 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:28 pm
Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:25 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:24 pm

Just on top of my head? Small races come to mind. Humans are -1 ab compared to elves and horcs at the very least. Some builds are literally impossible to do unless you're a Drow or pre nerf Orog. I gave it *some* thought and other people also gave it some thought. Just not in regards to your argument specifically. And I'm done here.
Small races, humans, and half orcs, in your mind are as handicapped as drow are right now?
ok ok
a petition to add a craftable Sunglasses +5. Drow artist only. Do you want to get this thread locked? I said I'm done here.
I just wanted to understand your line of reasoning since you replied my post. I hope you have a good day.

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-XXX-
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:31 pm

Void wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:09 pm
I'll see details later today while playing, but looks like it will be another royal pain out of nowhere to deal with.
Pillars of Eternity?

AstralUniverse
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:31 pm

Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:30 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:28 pm
Wings of Peace wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:25 pm


Small races, humans, and half orcs, in your mind are as handicapped as drow are right now?
ok ok
a petition to add a craftable Sunglasses +5. Drow artist only. Do you want to get this thread locked? I said I'm done here.
I just wanted to understand your line of reasoning since you replied my post. I hope you have a good day.
Likewise mate. Take it easy. Drow will be fine.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


McPunchins
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by McPunchins » Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:59 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:31 pm
Likewise mate. Take it easy. Drow will be fine.
You say that but you clearly haven't taken into account the fact that people are saying the penalty ignores SR so effectively are going they will be permanently blinded, have 50% spell failure, and decreased SR and other things in every PvP engagement. Unless drow literally spam darkness everywhere they walk creating a cloud of sneak attack opportunities around them permanently and forcing them to spend endless amounts of gold on not only darkness potions/scrolls but ultravision to be able to actually see where they are going in fights. And don't say "they don't have to spam darkness" because yes they will have to, the second they step out of a darkness cloud they are going to get hit with essentially a worse form of WoF. People will abuse this heavily, especially if they can do it for free like true flames can.

Not to mention the issue that if they get hit with this they have to stand in a darkness cloud for multiple rounds to remove it while they just get blown up by whatever is around them because 70% miss chance makes all martial builds effectively worthless against all targets and 50% spell failure makes all arcane builds worthless. So basically the only drow who can even remotely fight with this are caster clerics.

The Underdark is supposed to be the place drow can hang out away from the penalty of sunlight and now it no longer is because anyone with a huge bank can buy stacks and stacks of sun spell scrolls and throw them at whatever drow they want. This basically means that not even in Andunor are Drow safe from randomly eating huge penalties and just dying to whatever person decides they don't like them at some given time.

I'm so glad that I get to just give people free sneak attacks in order to avoid being completely screwed over by the sun while I'm miles underground in the lowerdark.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Wethrinea » Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:05 pm

As sad as I am to see my AB reduced from the Ranger change, I understand that there need to be some drawback from two weapon fighting.

The change of dual wield AC from dodge to shield I do not get though. Ranger AC was never good to begin with, and no longer being able to use that skleen to compensate hurts more than the AB reduction. Unlike rogues that dual wield, deep rangers do not get epic dodge.

Otherwise I am excited about shaman and spellsword changes :D
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Kenji
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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Kenji » Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:12 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:41 am
-Why was the name changed to "True Frost"? New players might read this and get the idea that the class is cold themed in some way. "Fire" or "Flame" doesn't have the converse effect because those terms are more broad.
Drowboy wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:46 am
Would love some clarification on the true frost thing, seems kind of wild unless you've got some kind of spell fire channeler or something coming down the pipe
Void wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:16 pm
It was common to play true flame as a follower of Kossuth.
Yet here we go. If it is an "OOC change" that "Means nothing", then what was its point?
The point was to show players with a particular mindset of "path name defining RP" that there are other RP possibilities to explore beyond following a certain path name.

Can one go around and call their fighter a Fighter, a rogue a Rogue, a paladin a Paladin, or a ranger a Ranger? Sure they can. But can one also call the aforementioned classes an adventurer, explorer, avenger, scout, gladiator, and etc? Of course.

Actual True Flame lore:
In Forgotten Realms, The Brotherhood of the True Flame is a sect of Wizards who specialize in fire magics and absolutely despise flame sorcerers.
More can be read here:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki ... True_Flame

It can be ironic for a mechanical sorcerer to call itself a True Flame of Kossuth, really. But hey, I'm not here to judge anyone's RP.

Personal experience:
I had a Dwarven Banite, a mechanical TF, but RP'd as a Runecaster where the runes are etched onto the skin and the Banite was able to activate said runes indefinite times. Said Banite's signature move was to CC people using Bigby's fists and play them off as oppressive dark fists of Bane.

I also had an Aurilite, mechanical TF, RP'd as a disciple of Auril that only spammed ice spells, even took gift of devotion to consecrate altars and auto-still to emote encasing self in armor made of ice.

But some still recognized the mechanical path and started calling my characters True Flame (on a self-proclaimed Aurilite, really?).

The TF pathname will be cyclically changed into something else other than Flames. I have plenty coming.

Path of True Fun will probably be up next.

The possibilities are endless and players need to recognize that, in the end, it's an OOC pathname.

If TFs still want to call themselves True Flames of Kossuth, all the power to them, but know that there are plenty of other options, too.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Edens_Fall » Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:32 pm

Kenji wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:26 am

Healers still have access to Lifeline, Respite, and the spontaneous casting of Mass Heal, Healing Circle, and Heal. If they want overheal, they will have to take healing or suffering domains.

There are more changes pertaining to the domains and healing in general. Suffering domains will get to leech or vampirize from their harm spells.

For more in-depth reasons, one can read this post here:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=35420&p=278504#p278504

Hey Kenji! I'm sorry in advance if I overlooked it, but are the armor restrictions that former healer path Clerics had for being healer path now removed also? In short can I rebuild a healer path cleric into an armor wearing battle cleric?
Last edited by Edens_Fall on Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Reiklandraider » Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:34 pm

the sun spells... just feels like a tool for pvp griefing on drows now

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Skane » Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:38 pm

Sunlight spells inflicting full penalties on Drow feels like overkill; I'm sure it'll become apparent if that's the case soon enough.
Gods can we just remove magic already?

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by MalKalz » Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:41 pm

Nitro wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:35 pm
fulminea wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:31 pm
When I logged in with my orog I had not known of this update, now it is sitting at level 1 in the arelith entry area.

Will it be save an this state or do I have to bring to level 2 ?

I would like not to touch the levels rightnow since I will have to look at her build again and stuff.
IIRC the advice given by the team with previous relevels was that you should level it to 2 before logging off to avoid stuff getting wonky.
Correct.

If you log out at level 1, the auto-clean up scripts will trigger on re-enter and your inventory will be wiped. Always level to level 2.

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Re: Winter Balance Adjustment

Post by Kenji » Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:59 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:29 pm
Also this when?
Kenji wrote:For those concerned about charisma clerics, I also have a solution in mind. Will it be the perfect solution that makes everyone happy? Likely not. But I'm confident that with the coming changes, charisma clerics will be just as viable as the str, dex, wis, or even con clerics.
Charisma clerics currently serve a very niche purpose of being the Undead eradicator right now. See this thread on how they have performed:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=35754
TL;DR Charisma clerics needed a nerf.

As for your question: when it's ready.
Edens_Fall wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:32 pm
Hey Kenji! I'm sorry in advance if I overlooked it, but are the armor restrictions that former healer path Clerics had for being healer path now removed also? In short can I rebuild a healer path cleric into an armor wearing battle cleric?

Nothing is set in stone yet, but clerics will likely get the treatment similar to Paladin, Warlock, and now Spellsword, where they can select a particular path (we'll find a better word for it) to specialize in.

So far a few are planned, but these can and will change depending on the team's vision and further discussion:
  • Cloistered Cleric - specializes in casting spells, div power modified to do something else, light armor and simple weapon proficiency
  • War Priest - specializes in battle, free combat casting feat, certain weapon proficiency feature possibly shared with Favored Souls
  • Healer - specializes in healing and protective divine magics, healing domain required, no armor or weapon proficiency whatsoever.
To answer the question, if your character decides to become a War Priest (otherwise known as Battle Cleric), then yes, it can wear armor. If it decides to continue as a Healer, then no, no armor allowed.
Last edited by Kenji on Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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