Invisible Blade feedback

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Waldo52
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:32 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:34 pm
The most recent changes to the class:
- Invisible Blade
Levels now stack with the other roguish classes for the following:
Stealth Bonuses, Lightly Armored, Specialty Weapons, and Blinding Speed
The progression with blinding speed allows builds to have perma-haste and 4 base apr. This is a bad idea. We've been through this with other classes and it's just too strong. We considered doing it with ranger but never went for it. We tried it with swashbuckler but soon changed it to 1/2 progression to specifically prevent perma-hasted 4 base apr characters running around. We just got rid of the 50% perma movement bonus on monk because it was just too obnoxious to play against, as testified by so many players.

I suggest making it so players will have to choose between perma-haste and 4 base apr, simply put. lvl 1-3 IB count for the progression, and level 4-5 dont.
Valid point, +1

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MissEvelyn
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:30 am

Waldo52 wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:32 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:34 pm
The most recent changes to the class:
- Invisible Blade
Levels now stack with the other roguish classes for the following:
Stealth Bonuses, Lightly Armored, Specialty Weapons, and Blinding Speed
The progression with blinding speed allows builds to have perma-haste and 4 base apr. This is a bad idea. We've been through this with other classes and it's just too strong. We considered doing it with ranger but never went for it. We tried it with swashbuckler but soon changed it to 1/2 progression to specifically prevent perma-hasted 4 base apr characters running around. We just got rid of the 50% perma movement bonus on monk because it was just too obnoxious to play against, as testified by so many players.

I suggest making it so players will have to choose between perma-haste and 4 base apr, simply put. lvl 1-3 IB count for the progression, and level 4-5 dont.
Valid point, +1
+1

I play an IB and even I agree with this.
As it currently stands, rogues and dex-builds, particularly those with a low BAB, are being shoe-horned into taking IB, as it has everything they're lacking. Discipline, full BAB, and now also those extra roguish bonuses, making it even more a 'must' to pick IB.

I'd rather see roguish bonuses taken away than the class being nerfed in it's abilities.


serono
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by serono » Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:30 am

As for deep rogues I see the following builds viable. Im trying here to point out the differences.

24Rogue/6Fighter
The classic, 4APR, All Rogue Grenades, Decent AC when you need it, Epic weapon spec, dual-wield

25Rogue/5IB
4APR, All Rogue Grenades, Maybe ok AC when skilling parry or taking shield proficiency, feat starved for dual-wield, constant blinding speed uptime

19Rogue/6Fighter/5IB
4APR, NOT All Rogue Grenades, Decent AC with shield, Epic weapon spec, dual-wield

Since I tried building both IB variants I can tell they are both tight on feats, especially the 25/5.
I'm playing a deep rogue and honestly I don't know yet which variant Ill pick. The change was good as it gives me builds to ponder about.
I dont see the blindling speed uptime as huge as its being made to be here. It has been always long enough for pvp encounters even with 24 rogueish levels and when you want to get away you corner sneak.

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:07 pm

serono wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:30 am
I dont see the blindling speed uptime as huge as its being made to be here. It has been always long enough for pvp encounters even with 24 rogueish levels and when you want to get away you corner sneak.
In the same sense that HipS is overpowered, no matter how long of a CD you give it, because using it once in combat is enough to get positive value for the investment, the fact you will never need to stop to haste yourself with a wand, no matter who chases you and for how long (Or you are the one chasing), while not trading discipline dip or apr for it, is about comparable to having HipS on 5 SD investment. There should be bigger trade-offs for something like that. I mean, history speaks for itself - we just got rid of this very mechanic on another class (aka, the removal of 50% movement speed on Monk).

The only thing I can say in the update's defense is that the most problematic builds I foresee abusing it are Assassins, which is a locked class, so maybe balance is partially achieved simply from controlling the assassin population.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:33 pm

IB daul wielding is very feat tight without fighter level when trying to adjust cookie cutter rogue.

With Sprint i think cookie rogue might already have 100% uptime speed or close to it.

Assassin has most to gain with the weapon restrictions but might be stuck 1 handing a single dagger as well. So im not sure this new IB is actually busted, but I am no pvp expert and felt monk speed nerf was original desires of the few over many (happy to see middle ground approach of 125 though and trust you all know what you are doing). I just wanted to point out that full blimd speed IB builds will be feat tight

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Waldo52
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:32 pm

serono wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:30 am

25Rogue/5IB
4APR, All Rogue Grenades, Maybe ok AC when skilling parry or taking shield proficiency, feat starved for dual-wield, constant blinding speed uptime
For me this is one of the most interesting aspects of the invisible blade. Without fighter levels you're going to be so feat starved that weapon and shield becomes a more viable option by default (even if you need to take shield proficiency). As a rogue player I've gotten so tired of making the formulaic two swords guy only to spice it up with my two axes alt and my two maces alt.

I'm not so sure if it'll be a hit in pvp but against monsters I imagine that stacking bleed effects and hiding behind a shield in expertise is gonna be brutally effective.

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:09 pm

The difference between 3 min / 1 min uptime/downtime (less even, with free sprint nowadays), and just full uptime is very small. Practically speaking, it's almost never going to be decisive. We're talking about edge cases where a PVP encounter lasts over three minutes and comes down to one build having to spend a half round on a Haste pot while the other keeps going. I feel like too much importance is being attached to this niche scenario.

The 24/6 Rogue has the large advantages of available feats and reliable, consistent damage. It can easily pull off ITWF while still having the option of expertise tanking behind a shield, and without giving up any of the rogue grenades. 25/5 Rogue/IB is now a viable alternative, but I don't see it replacing all other rogues for the sole reason of that 1 minute uptime.

jomonog
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by jomonog » Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:31 pm

IB was looking in a much better place with these recent changes. Was a bit worried with the rogue synergy which seems potentially strong for a couple of the builds discussed above, but nothing too game breaking I believe. Still think the class should have uncanny dodge for the reasons I stated earlier but thats more an objection of game logic than anything balance related.

The latest change though to make bleed not work at all with anything crit immune is in my opinion a big step backwards for the balance of the class, especially in PVE where there are so many crit immune enemies, and in particular end game bosses where bleed was actually looking like a useful ability to have, given that otherwise most of the time the bleed damage is fairly negligible in "standard" fights, but on bosses it should have time to stack up and accumulate.

I dont think this change was necessary for balance reasons and I question also the game logic of making bleed not work at all on crit immune enemies. Bleed is slash damage which isnt inherently resisted by anything crit immune (unless they also have DR/- of course). If bleed is to be entirely resisted by crit immune enemies then why can other weapons that deal slash damage hurt them? I would understand the logic if the change was to make it so eviscerate can't crit on crit immune enemies as that makes perfect sense in the logic of the game.

In summary, I think changing the core IB ability so it doesn't work at all on anything crit immune makes IB again look pretty lackluster (and just when it was starting to seem a bit stronger!)

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Waldo52
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:24 pm

jomonog wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:31 pm
IB was looking in a much better place with these recent changes. Was a bit worried with the rogue synergy which seems potentially strong for a couple of the builds discussed above, but nothing too game breaking I believe. Still think the class should have uncanny dodge for the reasons I stated earlier but thats more an objection of game logic than anything balance related.

The latest change though to make bleed not work at all with anything crit immune is in my opinion a big step backwards for the balance of the class, especially in PVE where there are so many crit immune enemies, and in particular end game bosses where bleed was actually looking like a useful ability to have, given that otherwise most of the time the bleed damage is fairly negligible in "standard" fights, but on bosses it should have time to stack up and accumulate.

I dont think this change was necessary for balance reasons and I question also the game logic of making bleed not work at all on crit immune enemies. Bleed is slash damage which isnt inherently resisted by anything crit immune (unless they also have DR/- of course). If bleed is to be entirely resisted by crit immune enemies then why can other weapons that deal slash damage hurt them? I would understand the logic if the change was to make it so eviscerate can't crit on crit immune enemies as that makes perfect sense in the logic of the game.

In summary, I think changing the core IB ability so it doesn't work at all on anything crit immune makes IB again look pretty lackluster (and just when it was starting to seem a bit stronger!)
I think that at a certain point flavor ought to trump practicality.

I think most crit immune creatures lack blood or vital organs or have some physical or magical resistance to damage. Using a bleed ability against a zombie or iron golem does feel a little silly.

Maybe the class could use another ability just to give it something to do against these enemies? But yeah maybe let's not do DoT bleed damage against ghosts.

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:40 pm

Reflexively, I dislike anything that embraces 3e's un-fun paradigm of 'these very broad categories of monsters are wholly immune to your class.' Later versions of DnD dropped it for good reason.

I do understand that the specific thematics of Invisible Blade make the bleed mechanics an odd thing to occur to, say, a skeleton. But the does leave the PrC a less desirable alternative than before. Fighter's EWS doesn't care who you're hitting.

It'd help if IB's abilities outside of eviscerate had a better action economy. Crippling Throw and Arcane Bleed are both full-round casts that leave you flat-footed, making both really awkward for a rogue-type stepping out of stealth.

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