Invisible Blade feedback

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jomonog
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Invisible Blade feedback

Post by jomonog » Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:04 am

i really like the changes that have been made to Invisible Blade in latest updates. Making it a 5 level path with discipline added as a class skill makes it an attractive multiclass with rogue and other 3/4 dex bab dex classes and the new eviscerate feels much better as an instant action even with the damage reduction and cap added. It might be worth keeping an eye on overall damage and adjusting as needed depending on what numbers its gets live.

The only slight thing that bothers me about it as a class perhaps more thematically than mechanically is it not having uncanny dodge, particularly as a dex focussed class that is required to use light or no armor. Compared to all of the classes that otherwise have access to uncanny dodge: barbarian, spellsword, warlock, hexblade, rogue, ranger, assassin, swash, earthkin defender, shadowdancer, it just seems wierd that IB misses out. I noticed this particularly when playing around with mixing IB in with other classes like fighter/paladin/WM/etc and also with some of the other above classes that only get uncanny later in their progression.

Otherwise good to see changes which will no doubt lead to IB getting much more play than it did previously and will be interesting to see what sort of new builds come from the change.

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:14 am

I don't believe Invisible Blade deserves even Discipline. As a Rogue-like based class (described so on the Wiki), it doesn't make much thematic sense to give it Discipline.

But I suppose the only way for the class to be popular and actually picked by rogues and other similar combinations was to give it Discipline.

I would, however, caution giving it goods such as Uncanny Dodge, as that would no doubt call for a nerfing of its other abilities. And since it's a very niche class with niche abilities to begin with, it would be *such* a shame to see that diminished.


jomonog
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by jomonog » Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:26 am

Its the only melee class required to wear light or no armor that doesnt get access to uncanny dodge in its own right at the moment which just seems like an oversight to me. Some of the other classes that are given uncanny have much less claim on it than IB IMO (looking at you hexblade and warlock and even earthkin defender all of which aren't shoehorned into light or no armor - hell even Barb can wear medium armor and it gets uncanny very early). I dont think giving IB access to uncanny dodge would make the other abilities nerfable as it doesn't seem that overpowered to me but of course thats just my opinion!

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Ebonstar » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 am

jomonog wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:04 am
i really like the changes that have been made to Invisible Blade in latest updates. Making it a 5 level path with discipline added as a class skill makes it an attractive multiclass with rogue and other 3/4 dex bab dex classes and the new eviscerate feels much better as an instant action even with the damage reduction and cap added. It might be worth keeping an eye on overall damage and adjusting as needed depending on what numbers its gets live.

The only slight thing that bothers me about it as a class perhaps more thematically than mechanically is it not having uncanny dodge, particularly as a dex focussed class that is required to use light or no armor. Compared to all of the classes that otherwise have access to uncanny dodge: barbarian, spellsword, warlock, hexblade, rogue, ranger, assassin, swash, earthkin defender, shadowdancer, it just seems wierd that IB misses out. I noticed this particularly when playing around with mixing IB in with other classes like fighter/paladin/WM/etc and also with some of the other above classes that only get uncanny later in their progression.

Otherwise good to see changes which will no doubt lead to IB getting much more play than it did previously and will be interesting to see what sort of new builds come from the change.
the classes it works with already get uncanny dodge, so it doesnt need it on its own
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jomonog
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by jomonog » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:45 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 am
the classes it works with already get uncanny dodge, so it doesnt need it on its own
Well we dont necessarily know yet what classes it works with and, no offense, but that doesnt seem a very logical reason why a dex based class that has to use light or no armor should not have uncanny dodge. It's also a pretty decent argument that it wouldnt make IB unbalanced if it had uncanny dodge in its feat list if it only works with other classes that also have uncanny dodge anyway!

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Ebonstar » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:16 pm

jomonog wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:45 am
Ebonstar wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 am
the classes it works with already get uncanny dodge, so it doesnt need it on its own
Well we dont necessarily know yet what classes it works with and, no offense, but that doesnt seem a very logical reason why a dex based class that has to use light or no armor should not have uncanny dodge. It's also a pretty decent argument that it wouldnt make IB unbalanced if it had uncanny dodge in its feat list if it only works with other classes that also have uncanny dodge anyway!
this was brought up years ago when new classes were brought in, its a prestige class persay, which means its not going to have everything other classes have to make it a choice instead of the norm.

the whole purpose of classes not having what others have, is so we dont get stuck with the one choice does everything rut.

You are only thinking what mechanic value it gives you instead of seeing what rp value it gives you. Which btw RP is the most important, every character and class has the good and bad, you simply take the flaws with the benefits
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jomonog
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by jomonog » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:37 pm

I don't have any chars at all with IB levels nor plans atm to make one, so im not looking at mechanical value. I believe though mechanics should support the RP of a class. Invisible Blade is supposed to be a dex based rogue like class which wears light or no armor and relies on agility over brawn. It seems perfectly fitted for qualifying for uncanny dodge. As to it being a prestige class, well so is assassin, shadowdancer and earthkin defender so im not sure why being prestige means it shouldn't get uncanny dodge as that doesnt seem a valid argument based on precedent of those other classes. I'd also note at least in the case of rogue and shadowdancer they primarily synergise with rogue which also has uncanny dodge , so your earlier synergy argument against IB having uncanny dodge doesnt really sway my view. Anyway its just an observation and a suggestion to provide some feedback on my initial impressions of the class after toying with it in PGCC. if it doesnt get uncanny its probably fine as is but just leaves it out on a limb as the only dex melee class without uncanny dodge in its own right.

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:59 pm

jomonog wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:45 am
Ebonstar wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 am
the classes it works with already get uncanny dodge, so it doesnt need it on its own
Well we dont necessarily know yet what classes it works with and, no offense, but that doesnt seem a very logical reason why a dex based class that has to use light or no armor should not have uncanny dodge. It's also a pretty decent argument that it wouldnt make IB unbalanced if it had uncanny dodge in its feat list if it only works with other classes that also have uncanny dodge anyway!
The classes it ia intended for* have uncanny already. Other unintended combos might be more brocken. So why give something we didnt intend for?

Tbh I am fine either way but think we should give ot uncanny dodge to make othee combos viable like 25 fighter 5 IB dex based could be a lot fun.

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Waldo52
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:50 pm

Please forgive me if it's considered bad form to post feedback without a playtest, but on paper these changes look brilliant. My two big problems with the class are gone:

-The three level class was difficult to commit to for those roguish characters who needed that 5 level sweet spot for BaB and a discipline dump. Ironically you could barely play this class as any kind of viable deep rogue without hurting your sneak attack progression and grenade DCs somewhat.

-The two weapon fighting requirement really bothered me because most of us rogue players have made *that guy* over and over again and it felt creatively stifling.

All in all, good stuff. Rogues already had some excellent multiclass options (fighter, ranger, blackguard, divine champion) but this seems like a genuine sidegrade that'll keep things from getting stale.

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by serono » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:38 am

The change to Eviscerate is great, the feat is now responsive, fast and feels like a core mechanic of IB. Its sometimes hard to use when fighting groups and Id imagine its tough in PvP aswell, since its a targeted feat like knockdown. I'd like to see it getting a command just like knockdown has if thats possible.

Since IB now has Discipline as class skill, I have tried building a Rogue(25)/IB(5). Its pretty tight on feats for dual-wield and without shield proficiency, Its either spending another feat or invest into parry for some decent AC.

Taking some fighter levels for bonus feats and weapon specialization are too tempting to miss out on still. 19/6/5, might be okay.

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Eyeliner » Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:24 am

That seems like the intent. Give up the best grenades to do some extra shredding.

5 ranger/5 IB/20 rogue might be good too if you want trackless step, +1 AC from DDW and ambi/2 weapon feats for "free".

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Good Character » Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:25 am

New decent build. DEX 25 spellsword/5 IB. Take 4 IB pre-epic, 1 IB post. It's a build that has two DoTs (bleed and fire imbue) and can benefit highly from Crippling Throw (43 DC with maxed INT). Offers access to Tumble and better AB than a 30 pure SS. Use the +4 light flail in the loot matrix.

Plan to mess with it in my free time to see its viability. On paper it makes sense.

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Kalopsia » Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:26 am

serono wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:38 am
The change to Eviscerate is great, the feat is now responsive, fast and feels like a core mechanic of IB. Its sometimes hard to use when fighting groups and Id imagine its tough in PvP aswell, since its a targeted feat like knockdown. I'd like to see it getting a command just like knockdown has if thats possible.

Since IB now has Discipline as class skill, I have tried building a Rogue(25)/IB(5). Its pretty tight on feats for dual-wield and without shield proficiency, Its either spending another feat or invest into parry for some decent AC.

Taking some fighter levels for bonus feats and weapon specialization are too tempting to miss out on still. 19/6/5, might be okay.
Glad you like the ability! There's already a "-usefeat eviscerate" command. I could also look into adding a shortcut like "-eviscerate" if there isn't one atm.

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:15 am

Eyeliner wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:24 am
That seems like the intent. Give up the best grenades to do some extra shredding.

5 ranger/5 IB/20 rogue might be good too if you want trackless step, +1 AC from DDW and ambi/2 weapon feats for "free".
But you cannot pick improved two-weapon fighting with just 5 ranger (unless you manually pick ambidex and TWF) so it's probably a bad idea. Proceed to 9th ranger.
jomonog wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:04 am
Compared to all of the classes that otherwise have access to uncanny dodge: barbarian, spellsword, warlock, hexblade, rogue, ranger, assassin, swash, earthkin defender, shadowdancer, it just seems wierd that IB misses out.
You forgot Monk.
MissEvelyn wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:14 am
I don't believe Invisible Blade deserves even Discipline.
Swashbuckler gets discipline, tumble, INT into +1 damage per level and is also a bab class. Also gets free weapon finesse and doesnt require Lightning Reflexes. I think in comparison, Invisible Blade can have Discipline without it enabling any broken builds.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


serono
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by serono » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:31 pm

Kalopsia wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:26 am
"-usefeat eviscerate" command.
facepalm I forgot about this command. Yes, that works. Thanks for pointing it out.

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Waldo52
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:36 pm

Another hilarious gimmick build:

Warlock 25/ IB 5.

Cast combust and cast that other damage over time spell that's warlock only (pardon me, I forgot!) Then just start getting your bleed stacks in.

Greater spell focus evocation (for the spells) and abjuration (for caster level).

Is it practical? Is it good? Probably not. But seriously, LOL

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Eyeliner » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:53 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:15 am
Eyeliner wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:24 am
That seems like the intent. Give up the best grenades to do some extra shredding.

5 ranger/5 IB/20 rogue might be good too if you want trackless step, +1 AC from DDW and ambi/2 weapon feats for "free".
But you cannot pick improved two-weapon fighting with just 5 ranger (unless you manually pick ambidex and TWF) so it's probably a bad idea. Proceed to 9th
That’s the point.. manually pick those feats as your bonuses instead of favored enemies. Lots of rogues do that over fighter (mostly to not leave tracks).

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:57 pm

Oh I see what you did there. Nice.

But then I wonder why wouldnt you go 6 fighter and 19 rogue instead, swim in more feats - that's fun - also get 6 more damage on every attack, which is *probably* (just a gut feeling tho I admit) more damage than what IB gives you...
Last edited by AstralUniverse on Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Ebonstar
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:07 pm

Eyeliner wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:53 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:15 am
Eyeliner wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:24 am
That seems like the intent. Give up the best grenades to do some extra shredding.

5 ranger/5 IB/20 rogue might be good too if you want trackless step, +1 AC from DDW and ambi/2 weapon feats for "free".
But you cannot pick improved two-weapon fighting with just 5 ranger (unless you manually pick ambidex and TWF) so it's probably a bad idea. Proceed to 9th
That’s the point.. manually pick those feats as your bonuses instead of favored enemies. Lots of rogues do that over fighter (mostly to not leave tracks).
you cant skip favored enemies on the level its given
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:19 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:07 pm
you cant skip favored enemies on the level its given
From Arelith wiki:
Bonus feats: favored enemy, greater spell focus, two-weapon fighting, ambidexterity, Dual wield mastery, Blood Lust
And it seems to apply at lvl 1 too. I suggest checking that on the pgcc before locking on it for a future concept.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Eyeliner » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:31 pm

It works, I've done it many times, you can take ambi/2 weap (if you meet the dex prereq) instead of ranger FE on levels 1 and 5.

"Why" is primarily reading tracks and not leaving tracks. Some characters might prioritize that, others would rather have 6 damage. In conclusion Arelith is a land of contrasts.

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Ebonstar » Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:31 am

favored enemies have nothing to do with reading tracks or not leaving tracks

reading is based on lore, and not leaving tracks is trackless step
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jomonog
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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by jomonog » Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:12 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:15 am
You forgot Monk.
Thanks, how could i forget monk! seems uncanny dodge is not that uncanny an ability really (unless you're an invisible blade!)

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by Eyeliner » Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:24 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:31 am
favored enemies have nothing to do with reading tracks or not leaving tracks

reading is based on lore, and not leaving tracks is trackless step
You really have absolutely no idea what I am saying.

To be clear: rangers can take ambidexterity and two weapon fighting feats in lieu of favored enemy feats at level 1 and 5 if they have the dexterity to do so.

Some rogues choose ranger dips over fighter for the ranger abilities to follow tracks and not leave tracks themselves. That has nothing to do with favored enemies.

I'm not saying it's better than fighter. Just different. A bounty hunter or spy may prefer that option.

That's all, and waaaaaay too much explanation for a tossed-out "you could potentially do this" idea.

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Re: Invisible Blade feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:34 pm

The most recent changes to the class:
- Invisible Blade
Levels now stack with the other roguish classes for the following:
Stealth Bonuses, Lightly Armored, Specialty Weapons, and Blinding Speed
The progression with blinding speed allows builds to have perma-haste and 4 base apr. This is a bad idea. We've been through this with other classes and it's just too strong. We considered doing it with ranger but never went for it. We tried it with swashbuckler but soon changed it to 1/2 progression to specifically prevent perma-hasted 4 base apr characters running around. We just got rid of the 50% perma movement bonus on monk because it was just too obnoxious to play against, as testified by so many players.

I suggest making it so players will have to choose between perma-haste and 4 base apr, simply put. lvl 1-3 IB count for the progression, and level 4-5 dont.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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