Quarter theft rule change.

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Ebonstar
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Ebonstar » Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:39 pm

Drogo Gyslain wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:18 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:40 am
Slapstick wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 am
As much as I hate the concept of non-RP related quarterbreaking and stealing, I understand it has to be possible due to RP related potential. However, with a large number of thieves around, a lot of theft can happen to one person within a week. Would it not be better to make a quarter un-inbreakable if it's already been broken into this week? (Or 24h if you for some reason insist on allowing daily theft. Weekly should be max IMO).

If the local thieves guild then go out on their weekly protection racket break-in route and discoveres quarters already have been robbed, they can get the job of tracking down rogue quarterbreakers that are operating on their turf. It also prevents repeated break-ins from multiple players. The IC explanation could simply be that "recent robbery in this area has increased security surveillance to the point that a break-in is no longer viable"
This was suggested.
The thing is, I don't think most people mind - or even know, if their quarter has been 'broken into.' They care mostly about people stealing their stuff. Further more I'd say 'breaking into ' quarters either always crates rp, or is unnoticed. And if it's unnoticed, why do you care? People only really start caring when things go missing (or I guess, massive amounts of fixtures are rotated heh)

I've always been a huge proponent for quraters being breakable, I'm less of a proponent for things being stolen.

Keep in mind too... and I'll quote from you here..
However, with a large number of thieves around, a lot of theft can happen to one person within a week.
Keep in mind that the rule is now that a person can steal on item from ANYONE per day. So yes, a lot of theft can happen to a person within one week, but only if an entire group of thieves are deliberatly targeting /That Person/ and /NO ONE ELSE/.

If Bob the thief steals an item from your chest then Bob cannot steal an item from ANYONE ELSES chest.

Keep in mind too that a cunning thief would likely go for high value targets, unless there's some sort of deliberate hit going on against you. So yes. If your chest is stacked full constantly of adamantium ingots, then you're in trouble. But if there's other people with higher, or more interesting, value items then they're more likely to be a target. So realistically I don't see this as being terribly likely?
What about the issue surrounding stealing entire bookshelves?

I've had this happen, multiple times at this point, where thieves enter and take entire shelves of books. I've raised this issue several times with staff regarding rules surrounding the theft of dozens of items in one go, being foul play. I can reasonably see someone grabbing a table, or a chair... stealing a couch...

But even a group of characters, it's rather incongruous to walk in and -steal- an entire bookshelf full of books and items.

And the container argument aside, a Bookshelf is a container, Full of containers at worst. The rule is "1 stack of items", but what if that item is a stack of items which are also stacks of items?

Doing the math, a Bookshelf holds around 100 items, and each of those can be a notebook, holding 35 notes each.

The theft of 3500 notes would be devastating to a library, massive amounts of time, effort and research gone just because Jim-bob wants to be a jerk. Often with little or no RP surrounding the break in and theft.

With this rule change being officialized, does this finally apply to making bookshelves off limits for being stolen from quarters? The amount of RP is never justified to just how much can be lost.

Or is it still within my rights as a character to break into the Erudite Arcanum, and take an entire shelf of books, for the simple reason of Because Can?
the rule say one stack 1x2 and books are 2x2. the bad thing is most runic elements are now 1x2 or 1x1 so now one thief can easily make off with once was a few thousand coins value of stuff, to now being a few million coins value.

The rule should be no quarter breaks without real rp and not just moving fixtures and one single item not stack.

And it should also state that breaking a lock or door within 10 feet of npcs is illegal as well, since those npcs would surely alert the guards of the area or go hostile and kill the thief in question.
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Drogo Gyslain
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:51 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:39 pm
Drogo Gyslain wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:18 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:40 am


This was suggested.
The thing is, I don't think most people mind - or even know, if their quarter has been 'broken into.' They care mostly about people stealing their stuff. Further more I'd say 'breaking into ' quarters either always crates rp, or is unnoticed. And if it's unnoticed, why do you care? People only really start caring when things go missing (or I guess, massive amounts of fixtures are rotated heh)

I've always been a huge proponent for quraters being breakable, I'm less of a proponent for things being stolen.

Keep in mind too... and I'll quote from you here..



Keep in mind that the rule is now that a person can steal on item from ANYONE per day. So yes, a lot of theft can happen to a person within one week, but only if an entire group of thieves are deliberatly targeting /That Person/ and /NO ONE ELSE/.

If Bob the thief steals an item from your chest then Bob cannot steal an item from ANYONE ELSES chest.

Keep in mind too that a cunning thief would likely go for high value targets, unless there's some sort of deliberate hit going on against you. So yes. If your chest is stacked full constantly of adamantium ingots, then you're in trouble. But if there's other people with higher, or more interesting, value items then they're more likely to be a target. So realistically I don't see this as being terribly likely?
What about the issue surrounding stealing entire bookshelves?

I've had this happen, multiple times at this point, where thieves enter and take entire shelves of books. I've raised this issue several times with staff regarding rules surrounding the theft of dozens of items in one go, being foul play. I can reasonably see someone grabbing a table, or a chair... stealing a couch...

But even a group of characters, it's rather incongruous to walk in and -steal- an entire bookshelf full of books and items.

And the container argument aside, a Bookshelf is a container, Full of containers at worst. The rule is "1 stack of items", but what if that item is a stack of items which are also stacks of items?

Doing the math, a Bookshelf holds around 100 items, and each of those can be a notebook, holding 35 notes each.

The theft of 3500 notes would be devastating to a library, massive amounts of time, effort and research gone just because Jim-bob wants to be a jerk. Often with little or no RP surrounding the break in and theft.

With this rule change being officialized, does this finally apply to making bookshelves off limits for being stolen from quarters? The amount of RP is never justified to just how much can be lost.

Or is it still within my rights as a character to break into the Erudite Arcanum, and take an entire shelf of books, for the simple reason of Because Can?
the rule say one stack 1x2 and books are 2x2. the bad thing is most runic elements are now 1x2 or 1x1 so now one thief can easily make off with once was a few thousand coins value of stuff, to now being a few million coins value.

The rule should be no quarter breaks without real rp and not just moving fixtures and one single item not stack.

And it should also state that breaking a lock or door within 10 feet of npcs is illegal as well, since those npcs would surely alert the guards of the area or go hostile and kill the thief in question.
I'd actually forgotten about the 2x2 rule and it's application to books.

Because if you go by that logic then yes... Books are 2x2 and are not supposed to be stolen, so the mass theft of books via bookshelves has flown in the face of so many thefts then.

Cause not only are you stealing all those notes, but you've committed dozens of violations of the 2x2 rule in a single theft.

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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by neverwinternightly » Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:22 pm

I don’t think there is a 2x2 rule for thefts? I believe what people are thinking of is how pickpocketing items used to work. No 2x2 or larger items could be pickpocketed, but with pickpocketing changed, this rule is completely irrelevant now.

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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:59 pm

In another thread it was declared that you cannot steal entire shelves as they are containers, you can only steal one book. I didn't get an answer as to if you can borrow a book, copy it, return it, and borrow another to copy, and so forth.

I wish all of these rulings would be in an announcement or rule thread or something so people could see them more easily. There have been a LOT of questions about what the rules actually are in Discord.

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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:12 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:59 pm
In another thread it was declared that you cannot steal entire shelves as they are containers, you can only steal one book. I didn't get an answer as to if you can borrow a book, copy it, return it, and borrow another to copy, and so forth.
I would cautiously say that that's probably ok? Either the person won't notice that one or two books are going missing, or they might but as they're getting their old books back I don't really see that they have much cause for complaint?

So I... /think/ it'd be ok. Again though might depend a little on the sitaution.
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by godhand- » Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:50 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:39 pm
And it should also state that breaking a lock or door within 10 feet of npcs is illegal as well, since those npcs would surely alert the guards of the area or go hostile and kill the thief in question.
thats not a good rule for a few reasons:

How do they know you're picking a lock? It might just look to them like you're working a key in the door??
Invisibility is a spell. NPC's do not have see invisibility.
IF you're in a group, one PC can RP distracting the npc while the other works.


I get it, if your character BASHES the door down, then that would draw attention, but a lockpick can be subtle and quick like a key in a door.
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Ebonstar » Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:45 am

godhand- wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:50 am
Ebonstar wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:39 pm
And it should also state that breaking a lock or door within 10 feet of npcs is illegal as well, since those npcs would surely alert the guards of the area or go hostile and kill the thief in question.
thats not a good rule for a few reasons:

How do they know you're picking a lock? It might just look to them like you're working a key in the door??
Invisibility is a spell. NPC's do not have see invisibility.
IF you're in a group, one PC can RP distracting the npc while the other works.


I get it, if your character BASHES the door down, then that would draw attention, but a lockpick can be subtle and quick like a key in a door.
i said breaking not picking, i had one bash a lock and door with 5 npcs literally less than 10 feet away
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by xf1313 » Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:13 pm

A bookshelf owned by my faction has been taken, with many magical books in it. It was faction locked so I assume people would try and take ownship. That is deeply annoying....and likely the whole thing is destroyed already. Not to mention around 20 admantine from my friends’ chest

There’s no excuse for it, I have reported to dm but has been several days, guess it cannot be found, but I still hope who ever did it get some punishment. The books are just some game loots, but able to take owned items without consequences basically encourage rule breaking.
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Skarain » Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:50 pm

I am sorry that you encountered such grievances. Thief RP is sadly something most people do not know how to do responsibly.

The DM have detailed logs of everything that happens. As long as you can provide a somewhat accurate time frame, they can investigate, no matter how long time has passed. If both the adamantine and the bookshelf was taken within a 24h timeframe by the same group/person/faction, yeah it is a rulebreak. Less certain on the bookshelf theft, but taking an entire bookshelf doesnt seem realistic and not within the bounds of the "be nice" rule.

However, DMs are volunteers and with lives of their own. Could be that there was a busy period and few were around that could help.

I suggest you make another report to Active DMs over forums and request an investigation. You can repeat this each week until you get an answer.

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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:38 pm

Skarain wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:50 pm
I am sorry that you encountered such grievances. Thief RP is sadly something most people do not know how to do responsibly.

The DM have detailed logs of everything that happens. As long as you can provide a somewhat accurate time frame, they can investigate, no matter how long time has passed. If both the adamantine and the bookshelf was taken within a 24h timeframe by the same group/person/faction, yeah it is a rulebreak. Less certain on the bookshelf theft, but taking an entire bookshelf doesnt seem realistic and not within the bounds of the "be nice" rule.

However, DMs are volunteers and with lives of their own. Could be that there was a busy period and few were around that could help.

I suggest you make another report to Active DMs over forums and request an investigation. You can repeat this each week until you get an answer.
Honestly this isn't bad advice. Sometimes things get lost. Please do resend your report.
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by louballic2 » Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:58 am

As i see it - there are NPC's about. You could have a mechanic - where there is a % chance at a quarter break - that an NPC notices and reports via town crier - that FREDX was seen breaking to quarter JIMY - - - - or post similar to a notice board. Of course then they should be indisguise.
But if % chance yields a NPC reporting via town crier a Vigilante group may form to respond to the quarter break -- just because the illfeeling and vigilantism that brings about. That vigilante group should have a way of beating the potential high stealth of the thieves.

I put this forward - because of my armchair historian reading - there are many cases of the overlooked menial - and having someone see is way more common in history - hence the idea. [armchair historian is not a real historian - but someone who has read some books and thinks they are an expert. I use the term to try and soft any claim to authority or expertness] Personally i like the idea of a whistle blower giving the chance for a citizen posse to form - -- - "just for reference although posse's are made notorious by westerns - a posse were formed in mediveal england by the reeve or sheriff (shire reeve) to hunt wrongdoers"

And adding a % chance to breaking in seems - like it might be something to easily script - athough i have no experience there and that is just a wild guess.
And hark back to the original Baldurs gate - where a NPC seeing a theft brought the flaming fist guard - that was always a hoot. (i am showing my age)

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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Eyeliner » Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:46 am

Speaking OOC and in terms of fairness I don't think NPCs should be (generally) taken into account. That would mean these quarters would be much, much safer to own than something with a door that doesn't happen to face an NPC. Keeping in mind NPCs are static and always present in the exact same spot 24/7, with the exception of a few patrolling guards. Caravan drivers and merchants and local color aren't here to guard our property.

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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Amateur Hour » Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:19 pm

Note that if you come by your quarter recently-enough after a break-in and there are NPCs nearby, you can interrogate them! So it's not as if they do nothing; they just won't stop someone breaking in.

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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Sincra » Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:32 am

Amateur Hour wrote:
Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:19 pm
Note that if you come by your quarter recently-enough after a break-in and there are NPCs nearby, you can interrogate them! So it's not as if they do nothing; they just won't stop someone breaking in.
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:41 am

Eyeliner wrote:
Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:46 am
Speaking OOC and in terms of fairness I don't think NPCs should be (generally) taken into account. That would mean these quarters would be much, much safer to own than something with a door that doesn't happen to face an NPC. Keeping in mind NPCs are static and always present in the exact same spot 24/7, with the exception of a few patrolling guards. Caravan drivers and merchants and local color aren't here to guard our property.
what you are also forgetting is what is present but doesnt have a form standing or walking about just due to server and module resources.

These settlements dont just have the 5 npcs persay. For Example Cordor is a major seaport, and if it was possible to actually show the traders, the fishmongers, the drovers, the farmers, the children, the shopping wives etc it would be.

You dont go to NYC and think that there are only 10 people there.

Its up to us as players in our immersion to have common sense to temper our play and not ignore where you are would have more people present if it wouldnt drag the server to a halt.

and in general, I think that if you build for quarter breaking, then you be held to a much higher standard of rp in all regards rather than just having the points and feats.
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Re: Quarter theft rule change.

Post by Eyeliner » Sat Feb 26, 2022 9:24 pm

I’m not “forgetting” anything, but speaking in game mechanics terms NPCs (especially invisible ones!) shouldn’t give a quarter a huge security advantage without at least some extra cost or upkeep or some penalty to the player. You’re saying these doors are impregnable or a robber must be auto-IDed because a neutral NPC is nearby and I don’t think that’s fair or the way it was designed. Using a skill to interrogate NPCs around sounds like a great way to handle this (I’d argue persuade out to be one check used since they may not be forthcoming, and that feels appropriate to detective RP)

Also, I’ve lived in NYC and now SF and I can tell you bystanders aren’t a lot of help with property crime. They’re going to rush to step in because why, they love our character so much they’ll go out of their way to protect their belongings? That can happen but it’s not a universal given. Violence tends to get this kind of reaction but with break-ins and stolen property witnesses are hard to come by. It's barely even possible to get the police to take a stolen property report and they sure aren't going to do much to find it. If your character earned enough love in town that the NPCs would go to bat for them, fine, but show me how that was done and don't assume NPCs are all lawful good and willing to stick their neck out. If you’re a notable citizen you just might have NPCs resent you if we’re going to give them fleshed out personalities.

Said all I need to say on that, the tldr is it’s about fair play, a quarter door on the street hasn’t historically meant it’s more difficult to rob on Arelith so if that’s going to change it needs to be done right.

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