Arelith

Is currently the only adamantine bracer that cannot be runed:

Adamantine Bracer of Aggression - Masterwork Rune
Adamantine Bracer of Avoidance - Greater or Masterwork Rune
Adamantine Bracer of Knowing - Masterwork Rune
Adamantine Bracer of Preservation - Greater or Masterwork Rune

Adamantine Bracer of Persuasion - Too complex


It's the only bracer that gives a set of 3 skills and currently looks like this:
Damage Reduction: 5/+3
Enhancement Bonus: +2 Charisma
Skill Bonus: +6 Bluff
Skill Bonus: +6 Perform
Skill Bonus: +6 Leadership
Charm Person (10) 3 uses/day

IDK what the design intent behind it was, but missing out on the rune slot really stings.
Personally, I'd just ditch Perform, but any one of the skills would do.

I mean, who cares that it can't be ruined? The only people who want it are sorcerers who don't need a rune there (and often really want that bluff or leadership or both) and maybe certain bards. Bards are up there with paladins as far as power level and only get ignored by the masses because their power comes from a group instead of being a solo wrecking ball, they don't need the boost.

Mind you, I am not anti adding a rune, I just don't want to see that bluff/perform/leadership get nerfed.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:04 pm

I mean, who cares that it can't be ruined? The only people who want it are sorcerers who don't need a rune there (and often really want that bluff or leadership or both)

The rune can represent +1 CON, +1 UNI save, +2 Discipline or any other attribute or skill. So yeah, I'd say that sorcerers do care.

+6 perform is nice for bards, but the rune could represent +1 STR which would make current bard builds at least consider this over adamantine bracer of aggression IMO. This might further make this item and interesting choice for paladins and other CHA builds too.

If it's disguise you're after, either +6 bluff or +6 perform will do, you do not need both.


An alternative would be to make this craftable straight up runic and account for it in the recepie.

-XXX- wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:18 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:04 pm

I mean, who cares that it can't be ruined? The only people who want it are sorcerers who don't need a rune there (and often really want that bluff or leadership or both)

The rune can represent +1 CON, +1 UNI save, +2 Discipline or any other attribute or skill. So yeah, I'd say that sorcerers do care.

+6 perform is nice for bards, but the rune could represent +1 STR which would make current bard builds at least consider this over adamantine bracer of aggression IMO. This might further make this item and interesting choice for paladins and other CHA builds too.

If it's disguise you're after, either +6 bluff or +6 perform will do, you do not need both.


An alternative would be to make this craftable straight up runic and account for it in the recepie.

Perhaps I worded it wrong. Sure, anyone wants more rune stuff. I'm just saying that sorcerers don't really need it. And it's also nice that a bard could go disguise with perform with this item.

That being said I looked at them all again, and this is probably the least impactful on pvp of all the bracers save the preservation one since heal is somewhat pointless on a cleric, and that one is a greater or masterwork rune. So maybe you are on to something.

-XXX- wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:18 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:04 pm

I mean, who cares that it can't be ruined? The only people who want it are sorcerers who don't need a rune there (and often really want that bluff or leadership or both)

The rune can represent +1 CON, +1 UNI save, +2 Discipline or any other attribute or skill. So yeah, I'd say that sorcerers do care.

+6 perform is nice for bards, but the rune could represent +1 STR which would make current bard builds at least consider this over adamantine bracer of aggression IMO. This might further make this item and interesting choice for paladins and other CHA builds too.

If it's disguise you're after, either +6 bluff or +6 perform will do, you do not need both.


An alternative would be to make this craftable straight up runic and account for it in the recepie.

I think the runic on-crafting alternative is far better, as taking away either Perform or Bluff will alienate half of those who want to use this Bracer for a buff in disguises.

An alt-alternative would be to take Leadership away. Its only useful function is to boost Leadership high enough to pick up henchmen - and these henchmen aren't exactly that impressive. Since the bounty hunter aspect of Leadership got severely nerfed and capped, there is little reason for it to stay on the bracers.

MissEvelyn wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:59 pm

-XXX- wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:18 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:04 pm

I mean, who cares that it can't be ruined? The only people who want it are sorcerers who don't need a rune there (and often really want that bluff or leadership or both)

The rune can represent +1 CON, +1 UNI save, +2 Discipline or any other attribute or skill. So yeah, I'd say that sorcerers do care.

+6 perform is nice for bards, but the rune could represent +1 STR which would make current bard builds at least consider this over adamantine bracer of aggression IMO. This might further make this item and interesting choice for paladins and other CHA builds too.

If it's disguise you're after, either +6 bluff or +6 perform will do, you do not need both.


An alternative would be to make this craftable straight up runic and account for it in the recepie.

I think the runic on-crafting alternative is far better, as taking away either Perform or Bluff will alienate half of those who want to use this Bracer for a buff in disguises.

An alt-alternative would be to take Leadership away. Its only useful function is to boost Leadership high enough to pick up henchmen - and these henchmen aren't exactly that impressive. Since the bounty hunter aspect of Leadership got severely nerfed and capped, there is little reason for it to stay on the bracers.

dominated monsters count as henchmen, i can certainly see a sorcerer wanting to go that route.

I'm like 99% sure its possible to add a hidden property to items that 'behind the scenes' counts as -1 property on the item instead of +1, which would enable this bracer to be runed as masterwork.

I honestly can't see the downside to this. You still have to spend a masterwork rune to do this, and it brings parity with the rest in a way. No need to remove the actual skill increase from it.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:57 pm

Perhaps I worded it wrong. Sure, anyone wants more rune stuff. I'm just saying that sorcerers don't really need it. And it's also nice that a bard could go disguise with perform with this item.

As a sorcerer, I would actually need that rune for stuff. Especially since everyone *else "needs"* that rune slot, why not sorcerers.

I do acknowledge that players might be using the bracer of persuasion for any one of the skills (personally I care for Perform the least as it's class-specific and tailored for a class that'd probably choose the bracer of aggression over it). That's why I proposed the runic on-craft property.

What I do care about is that having all 3 skills on this item makes it too complex to be runed and I strongly disagree with the notion that sorcerers do not need the rune. They do want it the same as any other build.

This item should receive a -1 property value. Because Bluff and Perform dont stack together and people will never ever invest in both of them.

-XXX- wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:22 pm

I do acknowledge that players might be using the bracer of persuasion for any one of the skills (personally I care for Perform the least as it's class-specific and tailored for a class that'd probably choose the bracer of aggression over it). That's why I proposed the runic on-craft property.

What I do care about is that having all 3 skills on this item makes it too complex to be runed and I strongly disagree with the notion that sorcerers do not need the rune. They do want it the same as any other build.

Problem is both bluff and perform are paths to disguise. Some classes have choice of either and pick arbitrarily, some favor one or the other by design (night hag vs feylock for example) but point is this item needs to offer both if it's going to be of maximum use whether as primary gear for charisma based characters or part of a speciality disguise kit.

Perhaps it could exist in two versions, one with bluff and one perform but otherwise identical?

Eyeliner wrote: Perhaps it could exist in two versions, one with bluff and one perform but otherwise identical?

Sounds like the most elegant solution of all.

Edit: If the solution of post below is mechanically feastible, the yes, rather that.

There's nothing elegant about making two items with the same properties except one (and probably similar names or same name).

I reiterate - it's entirely possible (and should be done in this case) to just count the item as 1 property lower, so it can take a masterwork rune like the rest of the bracers. There's nothing overpowered in having boosts to both bluff and perform. They are essentially the same skill almost and a character will only ever invest in one of them. Problem solved.

AstralUniverse wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:10 am

There's nothing elegant about making two items with the same properties except one (and probably similar names or same name).

I reiterate - it's entirely possible (and should be done in this case) to just count the item as 1 property lower, so it can take a masterwork rune like the rest of the bracers. There's nothing overpowered in having boosts to both bluff and perform. They are essentially the same skill almost and a character will only ever invest in one of them. Problem solved.

this pls

Please don't make it the only adamantine bracer with an automatic rune-ing built in. Yes, making it fair to need a masterwork rune makes perfect sense but giving it basically a free rune ability upgrade is way over the top.

Definately Not A Mimic wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:16 pm

Yes, making it fair to need a masterwork rune makes perfect sense but giving it basically a free rune ability upgrade is way over the top.

There's a plethora of runic craftables in the crafting menu already. Whether or not it's over the top all depends on the crafting recepie.

But yes, if there's a way to make the bracer of persuasion count as -1 property, then I'd be very happy if someone who can do something about it would consider making this a reality.

They can be runed now.

Big thanks to whomever who did this

-XXX- wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:26 pm

They can be runed now.

Big thanks to whomever who did this

Woo!

Nice

Great to hear!

Then there's the Bracers of Preservation that only have +6 Heal on them.

Having 57 heal on my cleric is fun and all, but a bump up on concentration or leadership would have been nice too.

Also the Perservation bracers are not greater / masterwork, they are masterwork only

Oof 57 Heal sounds nice. Your cleric can stand in greater sanctuary and heal a party member for over 150 (average) hp per round. It's nice to have if you ever run out of spells and your party is in a tricky situation.

Also, not all bracers have to have the same power because they serve different classes with different levels of power and gearing freedom, relatively.