The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

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CookieMonster
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The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by CookieMonster » Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:25 am

UD Races -
They are in a good position. Interactions are frequent and the quality of RP is good. Whilst cliches are always going to be present with regards to Races, Factions and so forth, the UD as a whole is a very inclusive place.

Outcasts -
Whether it is intentional or not, Outcasts are difficult to discern from Surfacers.

Surface Interaction -
UD Racers and Outcasts are Monsters and Exiles, they should not be welcome on the Surface and that is generally how interactions on the Surface go. However, Surfacers are encouraged to dispatch Monsterous Races immediately. Often the 'necessity" to kill a UD Character and the swiftness to PvP can cause a less enjoyable than desired outcome RP Wise

Surfacers in the UD -
Surfacers are difficult to discern from Outcasts and they treat the UD like a district on the Surface and often appear with an 'Immortal' mentaliy as "hostility seems to be discouraged towards Surfacers by regular DM intervention and reprimands."(According to rumor)

The Hub -
The hub is the central point of the UD and successfully creates a bastian of RP for UD Characters. But the rumored DM intervention and the severity of such has conditioned players in the hub to break character or simply refuse to interact in certain situations for fear of reprimand.

This has a negative impact on the quality of RP and the ability to maintain Character.

-------------------------------

My opinion is based on the rumor that DM intervention is regular and severe at the mere mention of being mean towards Surface Characters. But I do not think DM's should actively discourage hostility towards Surfacers, it is an aspect of RP and whilst it can lead to PvP, that too is a part of RP. The Underdark is a place of Monsters of Murderes, the death of an Elf is not a disruption, it is an aspect of life.

'Group PvP' should be discouraged. Like it is on all settlements. Raids, Wars and otherwise large scale PvP should be conducted with a DM present to ensure that rules are not broken and collateral damage is kept to a minimum.

If the DM Team is aiming to condition the UD to a particular type of RP, their should be an announcement of such to reduce false rumors. If their have been instances of 'Peacekeepers' stating rules, these rules need to be made persitant and clearly visable for everyone, otherwise false rumors will continue to negatively impact RP.

--------------------------------
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Skibbles » Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:00 am

CookieMonster wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:25 am
If the DM Team is aiming to condition the UD to a particular type of RP, their should be an announcement of such to reduce false rumors. If their have been instances of 'Peacekeepers' stating rules, these rules need to be made persitant and clearly visable for everyone, otherwise false rumors will continue to negatively impact RP.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=21795&start=25#p254250

It might be helpful to have maybe a permanent fixture stating the Hubmaster's rules or something in the Hub, but that's the announcement you might be looking for I think (make sure to read Bat's clarification after that one too). I really don't like the DM reminder thread for this reason, as so much is just lost in walls of text, but there it is.

In summary (my interpretation): Players must have a narrative device stronger than 'Surfacer Bad' to kill Surfacers. This can be spies, suspicious characters, anti-slavers, open enemies of any factions, and so on.

Some players definitely didn't get over this ruling, and it was highly contentious to a number of players if I recall. Maybe these are the folks you've been hearing from.
CookieMonster wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:25 am
Whether it is intentional or not, Outcasts are difficult to discern from Surfacers.
Intentional. This has been the case for many years now (disagree with it as much as we like, but it is not a bug or oversight).
CookieMonster wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:25 am
I do not think DM's should actively discourage hostility towards Surfacers, it is an aspect of RP and whilst it can lead to PvP, that too is a part of RP.
Very recently there was almost a month long, or even two month long, player-led UD arc based on killing surfacers - whether spies, 'chainbreakers,' etc. This was more than long enough for DMs to get involved and full-stop it, if the rumors were true, but the IC sentiments and actions are still well in place, and actionable, provided there is supporting narrative structure better than 'Surfacer Bad' in the conflicts that break out.

I highly recommend pulling distance between yourself and the people spreading these 'rumors' and you'll probably find yourself having a lot more fun.

PS: I still remember Kashard!
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Amateur Hour » Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:55 pm

In summary (my interpretation): Players must have a narrative device stronger than 'Surfacer Bad' to kill Surfacers. This can be spies, suspicious characters, anti-slavers, open enemies of any factions, and so on.
Is it known whether racial animosities would be considered adequate rationale? For example, say Filbert the Rock Gnome walked into Andunor with no attempts being made to disguise his rock-gnomey-ness. Would Zolbu the Kobold be within his rights to scream "you're the ancestral enemy of this one's people and you dare walk into our land? Leave or die, scum!"?

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:14 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:00 am
CookieMonster wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:25 am
If the DM Team is aiming to condition the UD to a particular type of RP, their should be an announcement of such to reduce false rumors. If their have been instances of 'Peacekeepers' stating rules, these rules need to be made persitant and clearly visable for everyone, otherwise false rumors will continue to negatively impact RP.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=21795&start=25#p254250

It might be helpful to have maybe a permanent fixture stating the Hubmaster's rules or something in the Hub, but that's the announcement you might be looking for I think (make sure to read Bat's clarification after that one too). I really don't like the DM reminder thread for this reason, as so much is just lost in walls of text, but there it is.

In summary (my interpretation): Players must have a narrative device stronger than 'Surfacer Bad' to kill Surfacers. This can be spies, suspicious characters, anti-slavers, open enemies of any factions, and so on.

Some players definitely didn't get over this ruling, and it was highly contentious to a number of players if I recall. Maybe these are the folks you've been hearing from.
CookieMonster wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:25 am
Whether it is intentional or not, Outcasts are difficult to discern from Surfacers.
Intentional. This has been the case for many years now (disagree with it as much as we like, but it is not a bug or oversight).
CookieMonster wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:25 am
I do not think DM's should actively discourage hostility towards Surfacers, it is an aspect of RP and whilst it can lead to PvP, that too is a part of RP.
Very recently there was almost a month long, or even two month long, player-led UD arc based on killing surfacers - whether spies, 'chainbreakers,' etc. This was more than long enough for DMs to get involved and full-stop it, if the rumors were true, but the IC sentiments and actions are still well in place, and actionable, provided there is supporting narrative structure better than 'Surfacer Bad' in the conflicts that break out.

I highly recommend pulling distance between yourself and the people spreading these 'rumors' and you'll probably find yourself having a lot more fun.

PS: I still remember Kashard!
Your so helpful Skibbles! ❤️

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Ork » Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:20 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:55 pm
In summary (my interpretation): Players must have a narrative device stronger than 'Surfacer Bad' to kill Surfacers. This can be spies, suspicious characters, anti-slavers, open enemies of any factions, and so on.
Is it known whether racial animosities would be considered adequate rationale? For example, say Filbert the Rock Gnome walked into Andunor with no attempts being made to disguise his rock-gnomey-ness. Would Zolbu the Kobold be within his rights to scream "you're the ancestral enemy of this one's people and you dare walk into our land? Leave or die, scum!"?
Ask yourself this: are you going to 1-line a gnome because it's a gnome or are you going to provide more roleplay- suspense, confrontation, hateful graffiti sprayed on the hub wall, etc. etc.? If you're just doing the 1st because "gnome bad", you can do better. If they're there to trade in Andunor, shadow them, intimidate them, taunt them, build something out of it. Kobolds love a good trap.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Skibbles » Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:27 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:55 pm
In summary (my interpretation): Players must have a narrative device stronger than 'Surfacer Bad' to kill Surfacers. This can be spies, suspicious characters, anti-slavers, open enemies of any factions, and so on.
Is it known whether racial animosities would be considered adequate rationale? For example, say Filbert the Rock Gnome walked into Andunor with no attempts being made to disguise his rock-gnomey-ness. Would Zolbu the Kobold be within his rights to scream "you're the ancestral enemy of this one's people and you dare walk into our land? Leave or die, scum!"?
If the DMs made a post specifically about racial animosity in this context I don't remember it, sorry! I just happened to remember the one I linked and so it was easier to track down.

Otherwise I think you'll find your answer nestled within Peacekeeper Commander Malhanar-Vakrith Galat's public memo that Bat quoted in the post I linked.

I'm not a DM but if I had to quantify all rules questions inside just a single answer: Avoid doing the bare minimum, and it is highly unlikely you'll ever talk to a DM.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by charmcaster » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:50 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:20 pm
Amateur Hour wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:55 pm
In summary (my interpretation): Players must have a narrative device stronger than 'Surfacer Bad' to kill Surfacers. This can be spies, suspicious characters, anti-slavers, open enemies of any factions, and so on.
Is it known whether racial animosities would be considered adequate rationale? For example, say Filbert the Rock Gnome walked into Andunor with no attempts being made to disguise his rock-gnomey-ness. Would Zolbu the Kobold be within his rights to scream "you're the ancestral enemy of this one's people and you dare walk into our land? Leave or die, scum!"?
Ask yourself this: are you going to 1-line a gnome because it's a gnome or are you going to provide more roleplay- suspense, confrontation, hateful graffiti sprayed on the hub wall, etc. etc.? If you're just doing the 1st because "gnome bad", you can do better. If they're there to trade in Andunor, shadow them, intimidate them, taunt them, build something out of it. Kobolds love a good trap.
While this is absolutely the more constructive approach to take, the simple fact that it is not a street that goes both ways is a bitter pill to swallow for some.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Red Ropes » Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:02 pm

CookieMonster wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:25 am
Outcasts -
Whether it is intentional or not, Outcasts are difficult to discern from Surfacers.

Surface Interaction -
UD Racers and Outcasts are Monsters and Exiles, they should not be welcome on the Surface and that is generally how interactions on the Surface go. However, Surfacers are encouraged to dispatch Monsterous Races immediately. Often the 'necessity" to kill a UD Character and the swiftness to PvP can cause a less enjoyable than desired outcome RP Wise

Surfacers in the UD -
Surfacers are difficult to discern from Outcasts and they treat the UD like a district on the Surface and often appear with an 'Immortal' mentaliy as "hostility seems to be discouraged towards Surfacers by regular DM intervention and reprimands."(According to rumor)

So a few things on this entirely from an Arelith/Realms Loremaster position and also as someone in the area staff/slave to Lord Irongron.

1) Andunor's non-player settlement areas are basically open to everyone. This means everyone. This basically has always been the case since Irongron merged the UD cities together due to its dwindling population in darker days.

2) Outcast is a freemium compromise to give flavor/purpose to the UD start for typically not in the UD races that is also meant to be narrative. You are supposed to be RPing a war criminal/a freak/a wrongly accused but now black-pilled denizen of Andunor and the cruel cities of the deep.

3) Monster races will never be equal in terms of "completely IC orientations of setting". Cordor will never be open to kobolds, but it is open to Duergar. Guldorand is open to Duergar. Anyone can basically go anywhere but you have to have social awareness, understanding of gravity- and when you play a monster you literally sign up for the "people will want to kill me for the ancient infamy of what I am" - good, evil, gay or straight, you will be viewed at least by NPCs as an existential threat.

"THEN WHY NOT THE SAME FOR SURFACERS IN THE UD?" Well thats the thing. Surface races by lore already exist in the UD, humans live there, dwarves as a whole are literally a UD race, we already have svirfneblin down there who normally are terrified of every single race, deep imaskari regardless of whether outcast existed or not would only be known as HUMANS with no more belonging than anyone else.

So what does any of this mean? Does it mean you can't be a bigot in Andunor or you can't be suspicious? No! You can and should be entirely molded by your racial lore, your characters origins, but obviously it has to be adapted to the porous, open setting of Andunor.

Andunor is a trade city that holds itself (barely) together in power sharing compromises between 3 major factions and a fourth one that doesn't entirely take sides so that (setting wise) it can have drama/intrigue/strife with space to go since the UD is not as large or filled with settlements as the surface.

It has many evil races in it, but, while the setting is skewed towards the amorality of many of its denizens it is not meant to be inherently and totalistic evil either. Freth, Claddath, and Grackelstugh leave the administration of their day-to-day to the players who can be as foolish/bigoted/murderous/tolerant as they like with all obligation to the setting and the be nice rule.

(the setting, again, being an open city where an evil elf could become the leader of the Devil's Table, or however difficult an Eilistraeen Drow in any district, and so forth)

As a player:

If someone wanted to play a paladin of Ilmater down there or a priestess of Eilistraee even in an open sense, they'd be welcome to and while it'd be stupid to wear your heart on your sleeve immediately you'd not be obligated to destroy someone's RP when they are already on the defensive. It doesn't mean you have to like/tolerate people that your character does not to the point of making your character not act against them...

But it does mean you need to balance out what that means. Is that person being an existential threat to everyone, selling secrets of your house/clan/whatever - clobber them, beat them up once or twice. You should give each other room to respond to one another in an ideal sense. Someone writes a sermon about the kindness of Eilistraee? Write one about how your evil god says thats smelly and dumb. Send spies to watch the people, harass them, etc, etc. Create a good back and forth.

Did the King of the Elves just wander into the hub 20 minutes ago despite having a position of KILL ALL THE DROW? Acknowledge it, run him off, and try to grease him outside of the hub to not make a mess. You catch the same guy with a random party in the UD wilderness, end him!

In the same sense, specifically for the races who can actually engage in intrigue and espionage... you can also enter Cordor, Guldorand, and so forth! You just have to be careful/acknowledge you will be killed and while its not "fair" nor entirely the same of the above.

Neither is divorced of the context of who they are. An Elf in Andunor could be bringing good money to market in the non-player districts, or be as evil/vile as everyone else either as outcast or not. A Drow could be selling information about Andunor either because they're good or evil, they're a race of scheming traitors! A Deep Gnome is the same to a Kobold as any other kind of gnome, so you'd need to be just as bigoted and questioning of them.

I myself played an orog dictator who created a profitable system for outcasts and surfacer money/spies by simply not killing them and assigning them body guards or spies to follow them. I was in charge of an organization called the Iron Order of Elven Death, and sometimes, even in Andunor we didn't even kill elves. In fact my character spent a lot of time helping evil, depraved elves. My character actually persecuted Deep Gnomes the most for racial and dual-loyalties reasons.
tl;dr wrote:setting lore/staff take
Andunor's setting is an open one designed for everyone, but the whole server isn't designed for everything that can be played there and those (monster) races have rules you agree to abide by in playing them. It is not a "monsters only" safe space.

player take
You should/can be suspicious of ANYONE in Andunor but it should be done with context and story. Your fellow denizens even are people you could/should be suspicious of but that is not license to kill them. Strangers of any sort might deserve your character's attention, you might even have grounds to kill them, but it should not be for a "REEEE OUTLANDER" reason but no one would think you were bad for killing the "Elf King" because he made a bizarre house call without invitation/context. If you plan to be bigoted, do so in fun and inventive ways that use killing as a last resort.
---

lastly, i agree that some of the rulings or whatever could be made into some visible, ic grounds, but I kind of feel like common sense / be nice largely already covers all this. But I also know each year we get new people and some people have their "own idea on what playing in the UD might entail" even though we have our own unique setting.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:21 pm

Gonna toss it out there, there is a surface equivalent that gets complained about by surfacers. It doesn't have to do with allowing monsters into the surface, but allowing antagonistic characters a place to live/stay. It's the Guldorand Charter. And the reason it exists is (probably) the same reason Andunor anti-surface police were told to cut it out: People who try too hard to remove people from areas end up stagnating them. On the surface, most settlements have a long list of all of the people not allowed to be in them. It's pretty bad IMO. The Guldorand Charter makes it so you can't do that. You can't ban people because of their faith or affiliation or pirate tattoos. Likewise in Andunor, if you killbash every good aligned monster, where are they going to go? If some paladin is down there on some crazy mission, why not hear them out and heckle them and try to convince them to fall?

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Eyeliner » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:23 pm

Here is how I look at it... Real life isn't fair. You can be born wealthy in Europe or poor in a war-torn country and that's going to shape your options and experiences and limit your possibilities. The game is similar, if you're from Anundor you are going to have a very different life than a surfacer. If you're on the surface and not human, if you're a pirate etc. you'll have different options and limits as well. There's never going to be a "fair" balance where everyone has equal opportunities and restrictions and it's Anundor Horde vs Surface Alliance. IMO that isn't something we should even want.

The equalizer here is we all have the ability to start a character anywhere we want. THAT is what's fair. No one is limited from experiencing life in any settlement.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by CookieMonster » Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:16 pm

Just to make a clarification.

I am not an advocate of PvP. I very rarely PvP when it doesn't provide any beneficial aftermath RP wise, in fact the only time I will PvP when I think that RP has been lacking before or will be lacking after is simply self defence or preventing lowbie stomping.

I would actively encourage RP towards Surface Races in the Underdark, I would actively encourage the hostility and suspicion towards them and throwing them out of the City, by force if the RP falls that way. But, their needs to be a clear stance.

At the moment, their is this seemingly looming threat of DM wrath and it is present in most players. Because their are far to many different interpretations of what the DM's expect out of interactions in the Hub. Get rid of that interpretation and replace it with a clear "Be Nice", official, and that looming threat fades.

----

As for the responses with regards to context and perspectives? They make sense and are a good way to look at it.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Watchful Glare » Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:33 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:21 pm
Gonna toss it out there, there is a surface equivalent that gets complained about by surfacers. It doesn't have to do with allowing monsters into the surface, but allowing antagonistic characters a place to live/stay. It's the Guldorand Charter. And the reason it exists is (probably) the same reason Andunor anti-surface police were told to cut it out: People who try too hard to remove people from areas end up stagnating them. On the surface, most settlements have a long list of all of the people not allowed to be in them. It's pretty bad IMO. The Guldorand Charter makes it so you can't do that. You can't ban people because of their faith or affiliation or pirate tattoos. Likewise in Andunor, if you killbash every good aligned monster, where are they going to go? If some paladin is down there on some crazy mission, why not hear them out and heckle them and try to convince them to fall?
You're not wrong, I actually think you're correct, however I don't think it's the same. I think there's a point in which it goes against the setting- If the Underdark is composed by 60% of good aligned monsters (or those that play them as such), 30% by neutral ones, and 10% by clearly evil ones what ends up happening is exactly what you described but reverse uno card. Except it would also go against what was intended by having such a place, with that kind of setting, in the first place.

It's going to be very hard to have one setting that is tolerant for both good and evil within the same place. And it happens within Guldorand too. You have good (that's a big assumption on my part, but bear with me) aligned elves that can and will move out of Myon to kill targets in Guldorand, Charter and law be damned, because they're right there. Or in Cordor. And at best (if at all) what they'd get is a pout and a "But don't do it again!" or an angry anonymous message in a board, with bonus points if it has good grammar.

Where the line for tolerance is, is up for grabs, and that is what I think Red Ropes was getting at.

We have had people who are favored souls of Helm go down into the Underdark, in uniform, expecting to be killed on sight- But they weren't. Currently in the Underdark, due to the influence of some groups things are at a stage where people don't (usually) get killed on sight anymore, and we have traders from the surface come down and set their own shops. Meetings with Ilmaterites that announced themselves and were not killed on the spot, but instead talked. Which I believe is as was intended.

However, it would be good to get clarified that it's ok also for Surfacers to get killed, and that such is not a breach of the setting, because it is misleading for some that because Outcasts live in Andunor, they themselves who are not wanted horrid war criminals nor have any rapport, can go to Andunor and not have to RP being under threat or duress from being in a setting that is out of their element.

And I'm not talking about no RP- PvP kills. I'm talking about accepting (like said Helmite) that Andunor and the Underdark by and at large is an incredibly dangerous place, where people are sold into slavery, sacrificed to dark gods, and backstab each other as a way of life. It doesn't have, not even by the most forgiving of margins, the same tolerance, safety, or guarantees any surfacer city has. It's literally populated (or supposed to be) by creatures of evil alignment, and evil culture.

You can go into Cordor and (usually) you will not be killed by an official, or citizens of the place because it's just not the kind of place it is (ideally). If you go into crime and gangtown (tm) the black market where even people are trafficked and expect "Hey wait this is a place of commerce, what do you mean empty my bags! Trade city! I'm walking here!" when approached by the local thug gang in an alley, you should expect your character to get stabbed if they don't play along in any meaningful way. Not engage in an OOC discussion about how DMs said you can't do that, which is what the first post by CookieMonster was getting at. Which I agree, some clarification would help the nebulous assumptions.

People tend to go on hyperboles a lot, and that happens one way or the other. Like someone that visited the Underdark three years ago and they got 1 line PvP'd and to this day they go on a rant about what a danger the drow are, even when none of those players are there anymore and to them that is 100% what the underdark was, is, and will be. To those that got 1 line PvP'd on the surface and when they see a random surfacer they want (In-character, and perhaps even out-of-character) to give some of it back and they're convinced there's a 50% chance any surfacer they meet is secretly a munchkin out to PvP people because of what they experienced, or "one of them".

And it goes both ways. Really the only way I could see this changing is people playing characters in opposing factions once they're done and not with the OOC friends they've made over and over in circular experience, to open themselves up to different perspectives, and to be on the receiving/giving end to get a sense of empathy. That's something I'd recommend to everyone.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:15 pm

I have played pretty exclusively in the Underdark. I have a couple surface characters I enjoy that I tend to log into secretly; but the reality is, most of my Arelith experience is Underdark, on a drow.

My thought process when I walk around the hub:
- Are they sneaking around the hub?
- Are they an unusual race who my character might think "doesn't belong"? (For entirely arbitrary and racist reasons!)
- Can my character identify them or are they fully covered and obviously concealing their identities from Underdarkers?
- Does my character not recognize them as a hub regular?
- Are they doing something visibly cagey, suspicious, rude or hostile? (Such as standing with their back to people pretending not to ease-drop, or lurking next to the goblin messenger, or seem to be copying the contents of Andunorian message boards?)

If ANY OF THE ABOVE is true, PARTICULARLY if MULTIPLE of the above simultaneously ... my character as a faction leader is going to whisper to a local, part of the hub crowd, and as a group walk up to them. These individuals are often strangers who recognize my character by reputation, and we collectively walk up to this suspicious person and ask them some questions. It doesn't matter if it's the hub, the wheel, or a district..

- If they are hostile? Accusatory? Obviously vague or tell an obvious lie?
- If they are taunting? Or resistant when it is socially unacceptable to be so?
- Do they draw weapons as if they have an overinflated sense of ego against an entire hub crowd?

If these characters have the talent to seem a non-threat, or to be honest but to present a good (even non-material!) bribe for ignoring them, or prove they're doing good and regular business ... the onus is ABSOLUTELY on them.

- Guard your reputation jealously. NOT having a reputation can often be worse than having a bad reputation in The Underdark. Even Underdarkers have to be useful in order to survive the hub. The hub is a privilege, not a right and is a privately owned enterprise run by The Hub Master.
- If you're a top-sider, complaining about your 'rights' or your 'privileges' to a drow or Orog? They're going to laugh in your face and stab you: Not because they're breaking the law, but because you don't understand how the Underdark works, because you haven't spent enough time interacting with Underdarkers -- which probably means you aren't in with any gangs, factions or mercenary bands and aren't doing something the hub master with his all-seeing eye would approve of anyways.
- If you aren't in a gang anybody cares about? Get in one. This can literally save your life. Your first two or three visits to the hub (as a surfacer) should probably be escorted, and non-stealthed till the locals get used to you being around and think you're funny, useful, or at least okay to ignore as a non-threat. While being in a gang can get you killed? Not being in a gang can literally mean that Underdarkers realize -nobody will care- if they murder you. That is literally worse than being one group's enemy. (At least then you know who to look out for and bribe for safe-passage!)
- Andunorians kill pick-pockets and known thieves just like everybody else in a public market. Underdarkers don't have a chopping block for taking off fingers -- they usually just go for the head and many of them literally stand around in the hub with well over 100 spot skill. Don't get a reputation for this in the hub.
- During periods of active warfare? Being accepted in the Underdark as unusual surface races get 20 times harder for obvious reasons.
- Even UNDERDARKERS get killed in the hub. I've had surfacers (and sometimes hostile UD factions!) literally roll up to my character in the middle of the hub, invisible and fully warded, and say stuff like: "You have been marked for death by an elf who wishes to remain unnamed. Do you have any last words?" -- don't be surprised that it's often WORSE for Surfacers in the Underdark.
- Prepare a bribe-bag worth of goods you personally would pay 100,000 gold for: It's acceptable to go lower based on your power-level. If you're a level 15, it's not expected you'd carry around 2 smelted adamantine ingots to offer to a Matron Mother. The easiest way to survive a confrontation that is NOT an immediate death threat is voluntarily offering bribes to the leader of the group confronting you without them prompting you. Otherwise, be prepared to submit to their (potentially unreasonable) demands. If you profit the locals and come with a showcase of your abilities and what you're capable of on their behalf or someone else (think of it as offering a free sample to new customers!) then that's a great way get off the hook! I've even had to do this as a drow to an outcast human who beat me up! (See the 5-year-old screenshot of my character below!)

Image

The above if literally just how you SURVIVE THE UNDERDARK -- even if you're a drow! If you aren't The King, suck up to somebody. If you act like The King, and nobody knows who you are? People will usually, immediately test you.

But if you're an Underdark player wondering if you're on the wrong side of the Peacekeepers and the hub master or not? I feel like this is based more on the kinds of characters? I feel like this is based more on WHY you are killing people and your visible, IC justification for doing so rather than HOW MANY people you kill or how many times people attack you in the hub. Likewise, it is based on how much the MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WHO FREQUENT THE HUB appreciate the fact that said person is alive or dead. If you have PISSED OFF the hub crowd merely by existing? The hub master probably won't give a damn that you are dead because your non-presence makes the majority of his customers happy.

The entertainment can actually ATTRACT customers and make them HAPPIER to be there and spend money.

If you're disrupting trade and making the majority of hub customers feel LESS SAFE to carry gold around? YOU'RE IN DANGER from both The Hub Crowd, and The Hub Master. This is why hell-ball spells in the hub aren't okay. It's not that the hell-ball spell itself is bad ... it's that it's literally impossible to AVOID collateral damage from those who do not deserve to get killed. There is no justification for the sheer scope of indiscriminate destruction in a crowded place, even to save your own life.

This is why there aren't hard rules written. Because the hub literally is not there to be gamed. It's there to facilitate the needs of a Mos Eisley Cantina. The fact that some elves absolutely have earned the right to walk on through with their sleeves stripped to show everybody they're elves with a devil-may-care attitude is EXACTLY THE POINT of the hub.

You know they're a bad-mofo or guarded by a bad-mofo. This is usually a matter of learning to "read the room".

It just so happens that a Priestess full of Lolthite fervor attempting to kill every single elf/halfling/paladin without regards to their long-term history with other factions, 100% on sight, purely based on your own character's desire to "purify" the Underdark is INFINITELY MORE DISRUPTIVE TO THE HUB MASTER'S BUSINESS, AND THE COMFORT OF OUTCAST PLAYERS CHARACTERS ... than the Abyssalist Elf Who Is Legally A Citizen walking through the hub and handing over elf skulls to a drow female who paid for them.

Don't start fights in the hub regularly over the above. The majority of voters in The Devil's Table aren't drow. They've never been drow. They haven't had a consensus or majority even as far back as 125 AR. It is all about if DM's can find a consistent motivation for what a character does and has done that is in line not JUST with your character's values ... but also the "character" of "The Hub Master" based on his past actions and history behind the scenes.

If it's consistent with your character, consistent with the Arelith PvP rules, but not the hub master? You may get an IC sanction.

If it's consistent with your character's values, but not with the Arelith PvP rules, but fine with the hub master? You get an OOC sanction.

If inconsistent with your character's values, but consistent with the PvP rules, and not the hub master? You may get OOC and IC sanctions.

If it's consistent with your character, consistent with the Arelith PvP rules, and the hub master pondering his orb laughs about an obvious spy or pick-pocket getting massacred by the entire hub crowd due to obvious rudeness or misbehavior: Nothing at all will happen, even if you're getting reported by said players who died.

The above is why the popularity of The Volunteer Black Lash movement (and the Iron Legion of Elven Death way back when!) and many other popular uprisings against surfacers have been successful. Because to some extent? The DMs DO trust the player-base to steer the direction of our own common settlement. You have to have visible values with SOME ATTENTION TO NUANCE AND INFORMATION GATHERING. You can't just kill all halflings/elves/humans. (And Underdarkers, obviously do not! The fact that some exist proves that many faction leaders are following this nuance!)

When Andunor puts up signs that say: "We're going to cover all halflings in butter, bleed them, and have ogres chase them around for entertainment" ... but a halfling outcast stands right next to that sign with a bunch of drow laughing her Snuggybear off about people they murdered in the last Dreadnaught sailing trip ... only surfacers don't understand the nuance. And that is exactly the point of the sign. Look at what the Underdarkers DO not what they SAY.

The plaque on a memorial statue for a recently dead and famous character in Andunor says: "We're all liars here." Adding HARD AND VISIBLE RULES ... misses the point. People need to stop looking to DMs for ques and start looking to their fellow players. It's when ENTIRE PLAYER BASES gets out of hand.. then DMs step in.

In general? That happens when 33% of the locals want one thing, 33% of the locals wants the opposite, and both sides (or one side) start killing the 33% who don't care for not supporting them? DMs will step in, in a hurry. I am not of the opinion that the hub is anywhere near that bad lately. It's actually become pretty lively with a lot of factions coming back to it lately and coexisting: Though maybe I'm missing something?

But if half of the customers in the hub have been damaged by 20% of the people there? The hub master tends to get rid of the 20% no matter how inconvenient it is for that 20% or how "well RPed" that 20%'s motivations are.

My recommendation is: If you're noticing you've been on the wrong side of this a lot lately? Either being sanctioned for PvP conduct ICly or OOC ... try playing a character who's more submissive for a while until you get a better read of the room. I've had to do this multiple times in the past on my character until I better understood what Andunor's current political state was just to avoid getting my Snuggybear-kicked.. (Usually, if my drow ends up dead, it's because someone isn't looking for submission - they don't want to co-exist, and that also enters into these examples as a thing that'll often get you into trouble when you act on it.)

There are literally shop-zones in the module where you are physically incapable of being killed. DMs could easily make the Andunorian Trade Hub, or Sibayad market, or Dis, or The Shadowplane like this as they did for Skalijard.. but some measure of wild-west and some ability to screw up by ignoring social norms is kind of the point.

Anyone who's leveled up in the Skalijard's early days has probably seen or heard of the pick-pocket getting perma-subdued for an hour by a crowd of players until a DM comes around to get rid of him. Nobody wants that to be the hub to be treated like the lowest-common-denominator in nothing but kid-gloves -- all the factions have to be able to have reasonable RP here, and it has to maintain the atmosphere of evil and danger. It won't be if it's turned into a padded room where nobody can get hurt unless they want to be.

While PvP has rules about the background, leadup, and appropriate fair-play? People don't need the consent of the other party to decide that person is a threat to their character, their values, or their faction. I like to be nice, and give people the opportunity to talk/bribe/impress their way out of something ... but that isn't mandatory. Particularly for repeat offenders.

Edit/Closing Note/Disclaimer:
The things here are just my experience, and while the above is NOT "word of god" on the hub? I have never, ever been sanctioned (SPECIFICALLY?) for my PvP conduct on Arelith - in the hub or otherwise - though I am sure I've made mistakes, and I've been cordial with most players who contacted me to let me know things I screwed up on ... which leads me to believe that, in general, my instincts and the things I've learned and written and explained above have been MOSTLY correct? I got sanctioned once for how I talked to somebody in a PM when I thought they were taunting me (and I was mistaken!) -- but that was 3 or 4 years ago, and I cleaned that up immediately and apologized to that person and the staff who contacted me to handle it and now absolutely avoid combative tells to the point where I just turn them off if I feel it is getting over-heated.

In general? I think if you examine your character's actions from the perspective of a non-religious, uncaring overlord who wants to make his 10% tax in hub-shops? (who could very well be a half-elf wizard outcast, a vampire or pale-master or a demi-lich or Masked Duergar Merchant Lord from Grackstugh: Nobody knows who the hub-master is!) You'll be fine. (This hub master guy is realistically a planeswalker who is 2x 5%ing his bracers while pondering his scrying-orb.)

With regards to IC sanctions though? You gotta read your fellow players and the HISTORY OF THE ZONE when doing PvP in communal locations. Read The Room. If other players don't fight there (Shadowvar/Dis) ... the consequences may be terrible for doing so. You won't find me defying Arch-Duke Dispator's edicts in his own house! My Freth-faith character won't even go raiding the flesh factory because there's a sign near the Freth Spire she enjoys access to that trespasser in that area are being monitored.

Just because you mechanically CAN do something or the DM's haven't EXPLICITLY told you not to ... and the DMs aren't there to stop you? It doesn't mean your character should. The DM's shouldn't have to make powerful non-hostile NPC's with devastating critical immune to mind-control, etc. But that's an OOC thing.

Adding overt rules to the hub IC just tells surfacers: "This amount of spying is okay." and paints the hub-master as "I am only this much of a traitor to the population of Andunor, neener, neener, neener." rather than what he really is. A merchant making $$$. The arbitrary nature of it is entirely the point.

In my experience, before killing someone in the hub? Even an obvious spy? Most Underdarkers will actually stop and have the conversation with another Underdarker IC (often a casual acquaintance or single-issue business partner and not a hard ally who is invested in them who witnessed the interaction): "I should have killed that person, huh? Yeah, that is definitely a spy. I don't think House XYZ will even mind the more I think about it, that was some pretty blatant garbage." before walking over to confront them and "correct" an issue. And I think that's great. The mirror-check; bouncing it off another reasonable hub-goer of a non-allied faction.

If you are worried? If you question it at all? Let it go. If you have over 100 spot skill, you see things all the time you have to let go. Just the nature of your character living in a society. Eventually, it boils over, and society corrects the thing you're worried about itself without you having to do anything. The hub can't kill every surface spy. Just the ones that fail at reasonable doubt. People WOULD try to kill The King of The Elves if he walked into the hub and isn't under escort or in chains: Regardless of what the hub-master tells them.

They might even do it if he was chained. That's just RP.. but if a player of variable skill makes a passable effort to blend in, and you OOC get the feeling they might be a spy but you know the player is trying? Talk to them, act suspicious, then let 'em go.

Your spider-senses got bigger fish to fry and other RPs to move onto and you gave them a good spy RP to help them feel a little excited/worried. Somebody else will probably gank 'em in a few minutes if they're being too obvious anyways. You don't have to add to that. Which sucks, but it was something of a learning experience as per my above screenshot when I got murdered for stepping out of line when I was new. I got over it. "Opps; I won't piss that guy off again. I'm going to bow my head next time! Grelveth's a bad-Snuggybear."

Kudos by the way: I am actually coming to love the censorship word 'Snuggybear'.. hahahaha!
Last edited by dominantdrowess on Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Naghast » Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:07 pm

Honestly having around 1 conversation a week about how an UD'er is supposed to act in UD, the rumors, mixed signals and etc. Is just exhausting. In other words, even with this forum post being here, there will be more conversations about it.
But i'll save a link to this thread to save me some headaches.

Also for the record
If i see a dude in hub whose entire election campaign was genociding my entire race, i'm killing them here and now, and just cleaning up the mess afterwards.

Other than that i just keep an individualistic approach. Surfacer or not, if that particular person did nothing to earn my ire, i will not be hostile towards them.

(Edited to fix a typo)
Last edited by Naghast on Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by CookieMonster » Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:42 pm

Naghast wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:07 pm
Honestly having around 1 conversation a week about how an UD'er is supposed to act in UD, the rumors, mixed signals and etc. Is just exhausting. In other words, even with this forum post being here, there will be more conversations about it.
But i'll save a link to this thread to save me some headaches.

Also for the record
If i see a dude in hub whose entire election campaign was genociding my entire racre, i'm killing them here and now, and just cleaning up the mess afterwards.

Other than that i just keep an individualistic approach. Surfacer or not, if that particular person did nothing to earn my ire, i will not be hostile towards them.
This partly stems from an encounter I had recently. As well as, as you say.. The fact it is debated so often and practically feared over day after day.

A Surfacer was in the UD with a -disguise, but hadn't removed their description or made any particular effort to cover up. When they were confronted by UD Races, demanding to know their business and then demanding they leave when it was made clear they were simply there to leech -un, one of the players received a slimey -tell claiming that the interaction was breaching Hub rules.

So I was kind of thrown. Because this notion of "Hub Rules" as a whole seems to be rothedung, fabricated and twisted to suite the narrative of whoever wants to abuse the seemingly set shadow rule. But, as the above responses have made clear, even an actual DM thread. The Hub rules are like any City, keep group PvP to the minimul, preferably non. No Raids without a DM to mediate and No One Liners, it's an RP setting. It even literally says Surfacers travelling to the Hub, be aware you are entering a terrorfying place, with monsters and convicts and to expect to be greeted with suspicion and hostility if you are not their to conduct business.

My Character is a Drow whom treats everything like a lesser creature, but has a particular disdain towards Surfacers in Andunor, wanting to know their business and their credentials to determine if they should be allowed to remain or be thrown from the City to make the long walk back to Saltspar. I shouldn't have to correct people informing me that a undocumented and non persistant statement made by a Peacekeeper isn't going to prevent them from getting the boot after proper RP has been had about it.

Which is why I feel that either it needs to be made clear that you are not safe in the Hub and stop making stuff up. Or, here is the actual thing we said, stop making stuff up.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Curve » Sat Feb 05, 2022 3:01 pm

The DMs leave rules vague so that players do not game those rules. It is pretty simple. Don't do things to other players that you would not like done to you. Always ask yourself if what you are doing is promoting fun or not. If you find that you are playing angry, growing frustrated with other players or taking actions for any other reason that having fun then stop and logout until you can bring a better version of yourself to the game. The UD is not an Oz prison sim, you are not your character. Be cool. Calm down.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat Feb 05, 2022 3:52 pm

CookieMonster wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:42 pm

A Surfacer was in the UD with a -disguise, but hadn't removed their description or made any particular effort to cover up. When they were confronted by UD Races, demanding to know their business and then demanding they leave when it was made clear they were simply there to leech -un, one of the players received a slimey -tell claiming that the interaction was breaching Hub rules.
This is someone trying to game the system and use OOC as a shield, report that. This sort of thing is why the team leaves things vague, because the moment they define things people will try to rule lawyer.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by CookieMonster » Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:18 pm

Curve wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 3:01 pm
The DMs leave rules vague so that players do not game those rules. It is pretty simple. Don't do things to other players that you would not like done to you. Always ask yourself if what you are doing is promoting fun or not. If you find that you are playing angry, growing frustrated with other players or taking actions for any other reason that having fun then stop and logout until you can bring a better version of yourself to the game. The UD is not an Oz prison sim, you are not your character. Be cool. Calm down.
I'm reading this wrong no doubt, but it sound like you are implying I can't RP without having an emotional breakdown :lol:

Whilst I agree that the rules do not come with a series of bullet points, they are not particularly vague and they are well documented. In this instance, the Hub has an implied setting that players are 'Gaming' to their advantage which I disagree with. Their shouldn't be an instance were several players can come to a different understanding of the same rule, or imply it in a way that solely benefits themselves. A member of the DM or Dev team can tell me how something work, I don't expect to recieve tells from players trying to do the same thing.

(But as Party in the forest at midnight wrote above, I will start to take screenshots in the future and leave it to the DM team look over it)

As for promoting fun and being nice? I have been around Arelith for long enough to know what is and what is not supported and in many cases, you will always encounter a situation you might not particularly enjoy, but it has often come about as a consiquence to your IC Actions. Being exiled really sucks and it's not something I enjoy, but it happens when you get caught doing bad things IC frequently. Does it promote me having fun in Cordor, being exiled from it? No, not particularly. Does it follow the narrative of being a bad person I created IC? Absolutely.

Whilst the UD certainly isn't an Oz Prison Sim. It's not the Surface Server, it's certainly not the Radiant Heart. So you are going to encounter a variety of reactions to being in the UD, just as I expect the same for being on the Surface on a UD Character. But, under no circumstances, would I send someone a tell suggesting to them "You can't be hostile with me here, it's not in line with the Be Nice rule." because that is me trying to manipulate a rule, that clearly doesn't support that, for my own immunity.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by CookieMonster » Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:23 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:00 am
CookieMonster wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:25 am
Whether it is intentional or not, Outcasts are difficult to discern from Surfacers.
Intentional. This has been the case for many years now (disagree with it as much as we like, but it is not a bug or oversight).
I forgot to ask Skibbles. A Surface Character can see in your description if you are an Outcast and naturally, they can see if you are missing it that you are not one. But if you are a Citizen of Andunor or a UD Character, you don't get this information, right?

Is that a bug or an oversight too?
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Ork » Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:30 pm

Intentional. Another system that supports Andunor as a trade city that many characters visit - outcast or not.

Why are you approaching disguised individuals in the hub? Do you know every character down there? How would you know this character is disguised? Consider that you may be breaking the rules by metagaming the "disguise".

Why does your character have distain for surfacers in Andunor? Does your character have an event that prompted this blanket generalization or is it your personal distaste and opinion that surfacers in Andunor are ruining the setting? Best start getting angry at all the kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins and gnolls too.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Watchful Glare » Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:48 pm

CookieMonster wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:23 pm
Skibbles wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:00 am
CookieMonster wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:25 am
Whether it is intentional or not, Outcasts are difficult to discern from Surfacers.
Intentional. This has been the case for many years now (disagree with it as much as we like, but it is not a bug or oversight).
I forgot to ask Skibbles. A Surface Character can see in your description if you are an Outcast and naturally, they can see if you are missing it that you are not one. But if you are a Citizen of Andunor or a UD Character, you don't get this information, right?

Is that a bug or an oversight too?
That's a good question too, and it would be good if it were like that too considering how radically different both cultures are.
Biz here was a constant subliminal hum, and death the accepted punishment for laziness, carelessness, lack of grace, the failure to heed the demands of an intricate protocol.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Naghast » Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:56 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:30 pm
Intentional. Another system that supports Andunor as a trade city that many characters visit - outcast or not.

Why are you approaching disguised individuals in the hub? Do you know every character down there? How would you know this character is disguised? Consider that you may be breaking the rules by metagaming the "disguise".

Why does your character have distain for surfacers in Andunor? Does your character have an event that prompted this blanket generalization or is it your personal distaste and opinion that surfacers in Andunor are ruining the setting? Best start getting angry at all the kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins and gnolls too.
Or they may have broken a disguise.
Or have a legitimate reason.
No need to be so accusatory here

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by CookieMonster » Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:08 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:30 pm
Intentional. Another system that supports Andunor as a trade city that many characters visit - outcast or not.

Why are you approaching disguised individuals in the hub? Do you know every character down there? How would you know this character is disguised? Consider that you may be breaking the rules by metagaming the "disguise".

Why does your character have distain for surfacers in Andunor? Does your character have an event that prompted this blanket generalization or is it your personal distaste and opinion that surfacers in Andunor are ruining the setting? Best start getting angry at all the kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins and gnolls too.
What's with the stupid accusations?

Whether they are disguised or not, my Character approaches individuals they are not familiar with to discern whether or not that individual is a potential issue. Yes, at this point they are familiar with all of the individuals that visit the Hub in my timezone and if they are not familiar, they ask questions.
Having the disguise "Wanderer" whilst leaving your description unchanged with your Radiant Heart insignia on display, is not an attempt to hide your identity, it's a temporary name change.

I have a Surfacer that lives in Andunor and I have a Drow that doesn't like Surfacers in Andunor. It's not a personal grudge.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Watchful Glare » Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:14 pm

CookieMonster wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:08 pm
Ork wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:30 pm
Intentional. Another system that supports Andunor as a trade city that many characters visit - outcast or not.

Why are you approaching disguised individuals in the hub? Do you know every character down there? How would you know this character is disguised? Consider that you may be breaking the rules by metagaming the "disguise".

Why does your character have distain for surfacers in Andunor? Does your character have an event that prompted this blanket generalization or is it your personal distaste and opinion that surfacers in Andunor are ruining the setting? Best start getting angry at all the kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins and gnolls too.
What's with the stupid accusations?

Whether they are disguised or not, my Character approaches individuals they are not familiar with to discern whether or not that individual is a potential issue. Yes, at this point they are familiar with all of the individuals that visit the Hub in my timezone and if they are not familiar, they ask questions.
Having the disguise "Wanderer" whilst leaving your description unchanged with your Radiant Heart insignia on display, is not an attempt to hide your identity, it's a temporary name change.

I have a Surfacer that lives in Andunor and I have a Drow that doesn't like Surfacers in Andunor. It's not a personal grudge.
Some people cannot make the distinction between IC and OOC. Thus, a hostile or antagonizing action from another character against theirs, is an action of the player against them, with ulterior (and generally assumed malicious) arbitrary motives.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Biolab00 » Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:50 pm

CookieMonster wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:08 pm
Ork wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:30 pm
Intentional. Another system that supports Andunor as a trade city that many characters visit - outcast or not.

Why are you approaching disguised individuals in the hub? Do you know every character down there? How would you know this character is disguised? Consider that you may be breaking the rules by metagaming the "disguise".

Why does your character have distain for surfacers in Andunor? Does your character have an event that prompted this blanket generalization or is it your personal distaste and opinion that surfacers in Andunor are ruining the setting? Best start getting angry at all the kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins and gnolls too.
What's with the stupid accusations?

Whether they are disguised or not, my Character approaches individuals they are not familiar with to discern whether or not that individual is a potential issue. Yes, at this point they are familiar with all of the individuals that visit the Hub in my timezone and if they are not familiar, they ask questions.
Having the disguise "Wanderer" whilst leaving your description unchanged with your Radiant Heart insignia on display, is not an attempt to hide your identity, it's a temporary name change.

I have a Surfacer that lives in Andunor and I have a Drow that doesn't like Surfacers in Andunor. It's not a personal grudge.
I don't see anything wrong with confronting the player that has a "Radiant Heart Insignia" in the description. Generally, what's written in the description, especially material description, should be perceive as what the character is about and carrying.
Generally speaking, said individual can probably be in -any- part of the Andunor and probably, not much people will care unless there's a group or faction gathering nearby which belongs to another matter entirely.

When i play Surfacer, i do not enter the Hub because i respect that the Hub, as the name implies, is the core area of the monstrous race gathering. Just the Idea itself, invites troubles. Unless you've specified settings or RP in this direction, I do not feel that being questioned, is a problem.
Take note, only -question- is not a problem but if you're found out ICly, that you're fishy. And you're asked to leave, cooperation is necessary. However, if said character resist and starts to hurls all sort of nonsense, that's when PVP happens.

If you're not convinced, do not mind, it's simply just my thoughts.

Edit : And regards to Ork's post, I don't see why Underdarkers having disdain for Surfacer is a problem. It should be right, to disdain Surfacer. And, i don't see how Surfacer and Monstrous race are even categorized together in your post. It doesn't link at all.

However, to recognise that -person- as a Surfacer, is the trick. Generally, it's impossible to differentiate Outcast and Surfacer unless your reputation in Surfacer precedes you or some godlike spotter is around and feels like taking action.

"Some people cannot make the distinction between IC and OOC. Thus, a hostile or antagonizing action from another character against theirs, is an action of the player against them, with ulterior (and generally assumed malicious) arbitrary motives."
I'm quoting what Watchful Glare said above.

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