The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:07 pm

Ork is saying that if underdark races want to remove all surfacers, that includes removing monster races that are NOT underdark races. If you're going for a surface purge, then purge all surface.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Watchful Glare » Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:11 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:07 pm
Ork is saying that if underdark races want to remove all surfacers, that includes removing monster races that are NOT underdark races. If you're going for a surface purge, then purge all surface.
Makes me wonder why because no one said that
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by CookieMonster » Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:38 am

Watchful Glare wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:11 pm
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:07 pm
Ork is saying that if underdark races want to remove all surfacers, that includes removing monster races that are NOT underdark races. If you're going for a surface purge, then purge all surface.
Makes me wonder why because no one said that
I agree.

Whilst it is late and I cannot be bothered to proof check. But the issue has not been presented as "Why the ---- are Surfacers in the UD." But more to the fact that, why does the Hub have a vague and abusable Shadow Rule that is often being used to create a sense of immortality. Whether that is Surfacers coming to the Hub, Pickpockets / Thieves in the Hub and so forth. (Such as a particular Character in the Hub that has been regularly stealing things from Crafting stations whilst you work on them. To then imply "You can't do anything because the Peacekeepers will stop you")


The fact that Ork came at me personally, in such an accusing manner just paints the impression to me that this issue I have presented is probably something they have no issue with at all, probably part of it themselves.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Ork » Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:39 am

I'm calling the distinction between surfacers and underdarkers a misrepresentation of the lore and clearly driven by player-motivation. If it wasn't, your character would certainly act equally towards the other races that are surfacers: kobolds, goblins, gnolls, hobgoblins, minotaurs, and more I'm probably forgetting.

The "surfacers out" faction is incredibly exhausting and not lore-driven. If you think my comments are an attack, spend time reading your post and reflect on what you're communicating to your audience.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Skibbles » Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:09 am

CookieMonster wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:23 pm
Skibbles wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:00 am
CookieMonster wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:25 am
Whether it is intentional or not, Outcasts are difficult to discern from Surfacers.
Intentional. This has been the case for many years now (disagree with it as much as we like, but it is not a bug or oversight).
I forgot to ask Skibbles. A Surface Character can see in your description if you are an Outcast and naturally, they can see if you are missing it that you are not one. But if you are a Citizen of Andunor or a UD Character, you don't get this information, right?

Is that a bug or an oversight too?
It is intentional.

It's less of a brilliant narrative tool than it is a punishment for consistently bad roleplay on the part of Outcasts in the past - it simply falls under 'This is why we can't have nice things.'

Outcasts were not supposed to hang out on the surface = therefore Tag.

Outcasts are supposed to hang around the Underdark = therefore remains as originally introduced.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Ork » Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:59 pm

I really implore Andunorians to read the Skullport 3.5 sourcebook. It really defines a city like Andunor in terms of factions and not racial strongholds. It is what Andunor is based on. There is good adversarial roleplay that can be had in Andunor but just because your character is evil and a specific race is not enough justification to PvP (correct me if I'm wrong here DMs).

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Biolab00 » Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:53 pm

Ork wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:59 pm
I really implore Andunorians to read the Skullport 3.5 sourcebook. It really defines a city like Andunor in terms of factions and not racial strongholds. It is what Andunor is based on. There is good adversarial roleplay that can be had in Andunor but just because your character is evil and a specific race is not enough justification to PvP (correct me if I'm wrong here DMs).
I'm thinking that you've de-railed from the original intention of the post.
I'm very sure that it was written as "Having the disguise "Wanderer" whilst leaving your description unchanged with your Radiant Heart insignia on display, is not an attempt to hide your identity, it's a temporary name change."
If having a Radiant Heart Insignia out in the open, is not a strong reason for suspicion, i've nothing esle to say.

And PVP, for the matter, should abide the 24hours rule which is very clear-cut, no matter the reason for the cause. So, it doesn't mean that suspicion = PVP. it's your wrong perception. It's generally how the other party reacts upon being suspected and discovered that leads to the eventual 'asked to leave' or 'striked dead on ground'.
Roleplay takes both party. If your means of role-play, is to see only what's in your mind and eyes, and ignoring everybody esle, it's really not meant to be, hence why even bother with your roleplaying.

I've never read the Skullport 3.5 sourcebook or anybook for the matter. I usually use common logic to discern matters. And, i don't think that having a strong lore of DND is an advantage or even a requirement. But that's just me which works fine for me.

Edit : I'm under the impression and still am, that Andunor or even Underdark in general, is just like any other Surface settlement in your eyes. I mean, It's Underdark after all. Most of the inhabitants, if not all, are evil alignment. Almost all, Evil. I've nothing esle more to add.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Drowboy » Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:35 pm

This seems specific enough that it should have maybe just been a report.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Watchful Glare » Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:40 pm

Biolab00 wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:53 pm
Ork wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:59 pm
I really implore Andunorians to read the Skullport 3.5 sourcebook. It really defines a city like Andunor in terms of factions and not racial strongholds. It is what Andunor is based on. There is good adversarial roleplay that can be had in Andunor but just because your character is evil and a specific race is not enough justification to PvP (correct me if I'm wrong here DMs).
I'm thinking that you've de-railed from the original intention of the post.
I'm very sure that it was written as "Having the disguise "Wanderer" whilst leaving your description unchanged with your Radiant Heart insignia on display, is not an attempt to hide your identity, it's a temporary name change."
If having a Radiant Heart Insignia out in the open, is not a strong reason for suspicion, i've nothing esle to say.

And PVP, for the matter, should abide the 24hours rule which is very clear-cut, no matter the reason for the cause. So, it doesn't mean that suspicion = PVP. it's your wrong perception. It's generally how the other party reacts upon being suspected and discovered that leads to the eventual 'asked to leave' or 'striked dead on ground'.
Roleplay takes both party. If your means of role-play, is to see only what's in your mind and eyes, and ignoring everybody esle, it's really not meant to be, hence why even bother with your roleplaying.

I've never read the Skullport 3.5 sourcebook or anybook for the matter. I usually use common logic to discern matters. And, i don't think that having a strong lore of DND is an advantage or even a requirement. But that's just me which works fine for me.

Edit : I'm under the impression and still am, that Andunor or even Underdark in general, is just like any other Surface settlement in your eyes. I mean, It's Underdark after all. Most of the inhabitants, if not all, are evil alignment. Almost all, Evil. I've nothing esle more to add.
It's a difficult task to explain to someone what a monstrous character is, the 'contract' it entails, surface monsters not being supported, the living reality of the made-world characters live in and experience, in the setting of Arelith, what the rules are, what a rule break is, and that there are no kill-all-surfacers factions all in one go. If they don't want to acknowledge a given topic, you can't force someone to understand it. It's been almost half a page of dull repetition, bogged down and dragged into a discussion of semantics to not let it go, only to reiterate items that were already addressed.

Best we can do is move on from that, everyone else understands what we are speaking about. I think it's an attempt at trolling, or getting the thread locked- So let's try to stay on topic instead.

If the lack of understanding is genuine, that's better asked and addressed in it's own thread where others can elucidate too. Better than doing it here.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Ork » Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:31 pm

I feel like I've acknowledged the given topic of why DMs may look unfavorably on factions in Andunor killing surfacers. Reading racial, setting and environment lore should be a part of your prep for your character. Refusing to acknowledge the setting of Andunor will lead you back to the frustrations experienced in the original post.

If you fail to read any lore, I don't think you can speak with any expert opinion about "what is the underdark". I've played in Andunor since its release, and in pit town, and in Udos/Grond. Let's not defame my stance because it is certainly more experienced than your gut feelings.

Skibbles did a great job referencing this thread, and I think I'll just reiterate it: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=21795&start=25#p254250

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Ebonstar » Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:27 pm

I just skimmed over this but one thing caught my eye.

Those who have issues of what Andunor is truly needs to find every book they can on Skullport, and even reread the Erevis Cale Trilogy where its detailed in an actual living sense of how it works. You will be surprised how many times you will say to yourself that this is Andunor.

Outside Andunor is the real Underdark, where the strongest survives. Inside Andunor everyone survives because the overlords enforce it to be that way.

Like Ork who i agree with on a very small list of things, I played here since Udos/Grond and every change since. Andunor is Skullport without having the same name.

Those who fail to do even a limited skimming of the suggested Material just will stay in the dark.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Watchful Glare » Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:48 pm

And... Surprisingly, we arrive at the first post, again:
If the DM Team is aiming to condition the UD to a particular type of RP, their should be an announcement of such to reduce false rumors. If their have been instances of 'Peacekeepers' stating rules, these rules need to be made persitant and clearly visable for everyone, otherwise false rumors will continue to negatively impact RP.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by chris a gogo » Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:54 pm

This thread stopped being feedback when they started going on about how others should role play and what books everyone should read in order to play here.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Ork » Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:58 pm

Watchful Glare wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:48 pm
And... Surprisingly, we arrive at the first post, again:
If the DM Team is aiming to condition the UD to a particular type of RP, their should be an announcement of such to reduce false rumors. If their have been instances of 'Peacekeepers' stating rules, these rules need to be made persitant and clearly visable for everyone, otherwise false rumors will continue to negatively impact RP.
dawg you read wraith's post? how clear it got to be

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:50 pm

chris a gogo wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:54 pm
This thread stopped being feedback when they started going on about how others should role play and what books everyone should read in order to play here.
It doesn't go against the spirit of feedback to recommend source material on the setting. We ~are~ playing on a server set in an established setting. Even though Arelith is its own sub-culture of the Forgotten Realms (and that's fine to a degree), we still exist within the world of the Forgotten Realms. Reading novels and sourcebooks will only help to improve your roleplay. It's not a requirement by any means; people were simply recommending it in order to help better stay true to what the setting is.

And besides that, many of these novels are great reads.


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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Kuma » Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:10 pm

Biolab00 wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:53 pm
I've never read the Skullport 3.5 sourcebook or anybook for the matter. I usually use common logic to discern matters. And, i don't think that having a strong lore of DND is an advantage or even a requirement. But that's just me which works fine for me.
absolutely blistering take that im finding it hard to respond to

Having a better and more thorough knowledge of the setting we're all communally inhabiting can only ever* be a net gain for each player involved.

* caveat: players who loredump from the wiki in-game are excluded from this and will not be mourned

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by -XXX- » Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:57 pm

There are more interesting ways of expressing hostility than *rolls for initiative*

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Naghast » Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:29 pm

i think it may be a good time to literally lock this thread as it devolved into ppl arguing.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Watchful Glare » Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:10 pm

Ork wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:58 pm
Watchful Glare wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:48 pm
And... Surprisingly, we arrive at the first post, again:
If the DM Team is aiming to condition the UD to a particular type of RP, their should be an announcement of such to reduce false rumors. If their have been instances of 'Peacekeepers' stating rules, these rules need to be made persitant and clearly visable for everyone, otherwise false rumors will continue to negatively impact RP.
dawg you read wraith's post? how clear it got to be
... Dawg... Here it goes again, but this time in bolded.
If the DM Team is aiming to condition the UD to a particular type of RP, their should be an announcement of such to reduce false rumors. If their have been instances of 'Peacekeepers' stating rules, these rules need to be made persitant and clearly visable for everyone, otherwise false rumors will continue to negatively impact RP.
It's very hard to have a discussion with someone that refuses to acknowledge or read what we are talking about in the first place- Or, well, doesn't want to talk about that. And if people are still having doubts about it, or are confused about it, (which they are) This should not be in a reminder, but in it's own thread and on the wiki. Information about Andunor.
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They confuse 'trade city' and 'disruption of trade' for 'nothing bad or inconvenient can happen to my surfacer character in this dangerous city, because it's a trade city' which is really far from the truth. Not being 'kill on sight' like it happens with monsters on the surface, does not mean immunity from experiencing inconvenience or adversity.

— The DM reminder (from one year ago) mentions
They do not care if you are a denizen of the dark or a questionable character from the surface so long as you obey the rules within the city
That's great... but what are the rules within the city? As far as it is understood, the Peacekeepers don't care so long as people keep being able to trade. Some lone surfacer not falling in line when a local crime gang presses him for protection money and he refuses to pay is nothing that would upset anyone. Him disappearing, less so.
Ork wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:39 am
I'm calling the distinction between surfacers and underdarkers a misrepresentation of the lore and clearly driven by player-motivation. If it wasn't, your character would certainly act equally towards the other races that are surfacers: kobolds, goblins, gnolls, hobgoblins, minotaurs, and more I'm probably forgetting.
DM Wraith wrote:Now, that said does not mean that they are welcoming to Surface races’ etc.
DM Wraith wrote:They are there to ensure wonton PVP for example does not affect trade, and they are there to ensure trade rules are followed; they were hired to protect Andunor and the Office of the Hubmasters select merchants. They are not there for petty squabbles, they are there to protect Andunor at all costs; and will.
— Quote from the same post:
We expect that surfacers whom may go to the Underdark do so under the knowledge that it is a place where the Terrors of the dark go to trade, a somewhat alien world, one where they would not be comfortable. Along those lines if you are a surfacer attempting to attack PC’s in the city of Andunor, you should be abundantly aware of NPC Guards and how they would react to this. This also means that those surfacers whom do go to attempt to scout out the “Dark city” and such do so with the understanding of that inherent risk and that may result in their identification and repercussions.
Which feels it answers your particular grievances already. So, perhaps you could do with another read yourself.

At no point in any of this does it mention surfacers are free from feeling threatened by the ambience, harassment, inconvenience, blackmailing, profiling, questioning, or anything that could come their way by waving a 3.0 book in front of any UD creature they come across like it was a multipass. It's not a personal attack against a payer. That's just the kind of environment it is. It's dark, it's predatory, it's dangerous. Surfacers go to trade, they negotiate different kinds of protection or find ways to acquire it, or they may find themselves at the mercy of any of the local gangs depending on who they cross, and their choice of words. You may not like it but that is the way it is. It's not a safe environment. It's a city of monsters, outcasts, and war criminals that are not welcome on the surface, where your run-of-the-mill surfacer does not belong and to them, it's an alien setting.

Naghast wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:29 pm
i think it may be a good time to literally lock this thread as it devolved into ppl arguing.
Those things are regrettable. I think there's plenty of understanding that can be had so long as people are willing to read others.

I do think everyone would benefit from having the setting more well defined in a visible place in an announcement, stickied, if there's a way it's "supposed" to be when it comes to Peacekeepers, rules, and so-such so we don't have to deal with all the OOC arguing, which was what the original post aimed at. And the more broken down and explained in simple words it can be, the better, judging by how widespread it is. Perhaps some examples would help, too.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by dominantdrowess » Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:22 pm

1) "You are NOT allowed to kill surfacers in the hub."
2) "You are ONLY allowed to kill surfacers in the hub."

Both result in unnecessary troubles for Andunorians.

1) Surfacers stand there and blow raspberries at you. A prominent Underdark player kills them and gets run out of the hub, damaging factions and district influence, or games the system by rotating guilt by choosing appointed fall guys.
2) Some Underdarkers that nobody likes or trusts take it upon themselves to murder all surfacers in the hub on sight, including your spies and agents, and you aren't allowed to retaliate. Outcast Humans who you cannot tell are Outcasts start getting ganked continuously. Andunor has a civil war.

Neither 1 or 2 are desirable outcomes. This is why it's not written.

Don't go overboard in either direction. If looking for surfacers while AFKing in the hub OR spying as a surfacer in the hub is the main thing you do, all day long ... then get your char a new hobby. I probably kill a surfacer in the hub like ... once per IRL calendar month - which up until recently was 1 time, per in-game year! But I knew people (even friends of mine!) who end up PvPing in the hub almost continuously ... and they get in trouble for a reason. Not because of they're PvPing, but because of the paper-thin reasons of loyalty to near-strangers they would use to get involved in every single uninformed fight, and every excuse to get a killing blow.

As fun as: "HAIL BANE!" is ... Andunor isn't "the empire of darkness" with full rules and laws ... it's a slummy supply depot outside of Doom Bunkers of Cackling Super-Villains "Matron Freth" and "Matron Claddeth".

You gotta to understand: - Even though the portal is kind of an OOC consideration for Outcasts? Andunor does not recognize Outcast Status. The Surface does. However, Andunorian recognition often (but not always) RESULTS in Outcast Status.

There are (AND SHOULD BE!) a LOT of "Andunorians" who people know and enjoy working with due to success ratios who are NOT surface outcasts! Protecting those people's identities is part of the reason the hub is often warded by volunteer casters, and irregularly patrolled by thugs ("neighborhood watch") looking for trouble-makers. The Hub is the Black Market where unscrupulous surfacers can come down to trade with drow, necromancers can buy corpses, and severed heads of good guys can be traded for bounties.

The ambiguity is the point. The ability to lie about it IC, the ability to change the rules arbitrarily to get the desired outcome for the needs of the factions are EXACTLY the intention. I kinda feel like answers given are being willfully ignored because the answer isn't liked, whereas if they wanted an answer from an actual DM, it's easy to PM them, both on the forums and discord and they're usually pretty friendly when you go onto the discord and say: "Hey, @DungeonMasters, can I ask a question in PMs?"

Some of them love talking about the philosophies and concepts that went into some of these things, and are often there for AMAs and customer service questions more often than they actually run events. (Because Arelith, largely, is player-driven~!)

But when you put these things to the public forum? You're going to get public opinion. And from what I can tell? There's pretty close to a consensus here.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Bees in Space » Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:38 pm

CookieMonster wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:08 pm
Whether they are disguised or not, my Character approaches individuals they are not familiar with to discern whether or not that individual is a potential issue. Yes, at this point they are familiar with all of the individuals that visit the Hub in my timezone and if they are not familiar, they ask questions.
Something to keep in mind here is that Andunor (along with all of the other settlements) in-universe is much more heavily populated than can reasonably be depicted in-game. There is absolutely no way that your character is personally familiar with every single person in a city of tens of thousands of people or more.

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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by CookieMonster » Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:09 pm

Bees in Space wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:38 pm
CookieMonster wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:08 pm
Whether they are disguised or not, my Character approaches individuals they are not familiar with to discern whether or not that individual is a potential issue. Yes, at this point they are familiar with all of the individuals that visit the Hub in my timezone and if they are not familiar, they ask questions.
Something to keep in mind here is that Andunor (along with all of the other settlements) in-universe is much more heavily populated than can reasonably be depicted in-game. There is absolutely no way that your character is personally familiar with every single person in a city of tens of thousands of people or more.
I mean, if you wanted to talk semantics, my Character is capable of God like feats compared to the common rabble of the City, why wouldn't they be able to accurately distinguish the common rabble from the superior and why wouldn't they be able to recall them with great detail.
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Re: The Underdark - My Feedback on a few things

Post by Curve » Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:19 pm

I don’t know about anyone else, but I dont make my characters godlike superheroes because it does not leave space for other characters to be cool too. If someone does not want to be interacted with I will typically give them what they want. Sometimes that means that players or characters get away with things that are suspect, but I don’t really care. I want people to enjoy my roleplay not have it shoved down their throat.

That is just the way I look at things.

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