Shop bidding system

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Shop bidding system

Post by Arienette » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:11 pm

We have had the new shop bidding system in place for a while. In the time since the change, I have been actively playing a character who is very involved with merchanting, and frequently is on the lookout for shops and such.

I have noticed something frequently and consistently enough to call it a “trend”.

With the old system, it was certainly possible that a P/C with no real interest in running a shop could happen by an open one, happen to click on the sign, and randomly decide to purchase the shop lease.

With the new system, it is often immediately apparent that a shop is up for bid. The shop is empty, you click on the sign and see that it is open for auction. The shop stays in the bidding lease for something like 3 IRL days.

Now, human nature is such that everyone likes to win an auction! And the cost to bid on the shop is trivial, so I suspect that all/most characters that interact with the shop over the course of days places a bid.

The result seems to be that a large number of bids are placed by people with no real intention of running a shop. Probably more than are placed by people who do really want to run one.

So what seems to be happening is that a lot of shops end up getting picked up by disinterested PCs. Then they never bother to stock or refresh it and a week later it is up for bid again! Or they stock it with a few junk items and a couple weeks later settlement leaders have to evict them and the process starts all over.

Me evidence for this is the high turnover of shops, even in desirable areas. Shops that are effectively unused for IRL weeks at a time as they repeatedly go up for bid, are won by disinterested PCs, and the process repeats.

At the risk of drifting into “suggestion” territory, perhaps the cost to bid should be significantly higher? Like high enough that some people will actually choose not to bid if they don’t really want a shop?

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Aradin » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:51 pm

I agree!

While I think off-in-the-boonies shops should keep a low bid so as to be accessible by low-level characters & casual players, I could support the idea of shops in prime locations having bids of something like 100k and a shop value of up to 500k. Having to pony up half a million for a prime location is enough to stop characters who want it "just because" from bidding, while still being affordable to characters who intend to make a go at serious salescraft.

edit: After giving it more thought and reading some responses, I don't think upping the bid prices to these huge numbers is the right solution.
Last edited by Aradin on Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:55 pm

There's another issue with shop bidding I've noticed. Not all shops go up for bid, their cost is under the threshold for it even though they're in prime areas. I noticed a shop in Sibayad's bank changed hands and I'm pretty sure it didn't go up for bid, I check Sib shops fairly often for anything up for sale.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:04 pm

Aradin wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:51 pm
I agree!

While I think off-in-the-boonies shops should keep a low bid so as to be accessible by low-level characters & casual players, I could support the idea of shops in prime locations having bids of something like 100k and a shop value of up to 500k. Having to pony up half a million for a prime location is enough to stop characters who want it "just because" from bidding, while still being affordable to characters who intend to make a go at serious salescraft.
That's a bit too steep IMO. You want variety in prime locations, if it was that steep you'd be guaranteeing only overpriced goods or runic trash would be there. It would also mean that only the already wealthy would be able to get a shop.

I like the idea of increasing the bid amount, but keep it within range of someone who doesn't already have a shop to be able to afford. Maybe 10-50k depending on where it is. People wouldn't be bidding on shops to fill with vendor trash if they had to bid 50k each time they saw a shop open. As well, it's no longer pocket change. It's easy to dump a bid on a shop if you're carrying 3k gold with you and you see something up for sale. 3k is pocket change, everyone usually has it on them. If you bump it to 10-50k, people are a lot less likely to be carrying it with them and place random bids.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Aradin » Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:11 pm

[/quote]
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:04 pm
That's a bit too steep IMO. You want variety in prime locations, if it was that steep you'd be guaranteeing only overpriced goods or runic trash would be there. It would also mean that only the already wealthy would be able to get a shop.
Good insights. I was throwing numbers out to use for the example; I definitely don't have any concrete figures in mind. Just the idea of agreeing with raising bids for shops in the best locations was the intent of my post.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Biolab00 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:15 pm

Tbh, i've no idea how the bid system works but, i've bidded shop and properties before. Over the course of 2 months, I've failed my bid, no less than ten times. However, i do won bids as well.

For very prime area, bidding system is very very good. I may not necessary won the bid but this truly prevents the property or shop from changing hands through metagaming. As long as you play long enough with your character, the possibility of obtaining a property is there, even at the prime location, and yes it took me more than 3months to bid successfully on the place that i want when i had for years, unable to even squeeze myself in when there's no bidding system.

There is only 'so many' shops. Everyone want a piece of the pie. Nothing is more fair than bidding. I'll like the system to maintain.
And increasing the bid amount will not solve anything, we all -know- it doesn't.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Arienette » Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:31 pm

Aradin wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:11 pm
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:04 pm
That's a bit too steep IMO. You want variety in prime locations, if it was that steep you'd be guaranteeing only overpriced goods or runic trash would be there. It would also mean that only the already wealthy would be able to get a shop.
Good insights. I was throwing numbers out to use for the example; I definitely don't have any concrete figures in mind. Just the idea of agreeing with raising bids for shops in the best locations was the intent of my post.
[/quote]

Yeah I avoided suggesting any numbers because I’m sure if The Team agrees there is a problem, they will be in the best position to determine if and how much the bid price should increase.

I just wanted to put it out there and see if it’s not just me that is noticing this trend.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:41 pm

Increased bid cost for prime locations seems a reasonable idea.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Eyeliner » Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:32 pm

One small fix I'd suggest is alerting the player they'd won a shop in messages when they log in. I don't believe that currently happens unless I missed it. I think it would be easy to put a bunch of cheap bids down right now and forget to keep checking all of the shops you're in the running for. Then you may win something and not know it which would have the side effect of taking that shop out of commission for another week and a half if you let it go.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:52 am

Arienette wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:11 pm
So what seems to be happening is that a lot of shops end up getting picked up by disinterested PCs. Then they never bother to stock or refresh it and a week later it is up for bid again! Or they stock it with a few junk items and a couple weeks later settlement leaders have to evict them and the process starts all over.
So high shop turnover is a problem now? That's crazy...

High turnover is great. The fact a shop can be empty from goods to buy for a few days is a small price to pay I'd say.
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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:35 am

That's not what they're saying at all. The issue isn't shop turnover, it's that people who don't want to run a good shop bid on it, put some trash in it, and then it's up for sale again a few days later. OR, it sits for months on end with barely any stock in it. I've seen the same thing myself, it's frustrating seeing someone who doesn't want to run a shop.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Arienette » Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:31 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:52 am
Arienette wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:11 pm
So what seems to be happening is that a lot of shops end up getting picked up by disinterested PCs. Then they never bother to stock or refresh it and a week later it is up for bid again! Or they stock it with a few junk items and a couple weeks later settlement leaders have to evict them and the process starts all over.
So high shop turnover is a problem now? That's crazy...

High turnover is great. The fact a shop can be empty from goods to buy for a few days is a small price to pay I'd say.
There are a couple kinds of “shop turnover”.

I have played characters that stocked up many dozens of permanent essences, defensive essences, attunement potions, runes, etc. acquired a shop, sold them all off and the. Released the shop after 1-2 IRL months.

That’s “good” turnover IMO.

What I’m taking about is shops that shift owners 2-3 times without even an honest attempt to stock them. This is what I am seeing as a Bad Thing.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Kuma » Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:38 am

Increased bid pricing by several orders of magnitude may seem like a fix on the surface of it but honestly all it'll do is turn a facility for making money (a shop) into something only accessible to people that already have money. While this is realistic, I don't like the idea.

Increased bid pricing but just to, say, 10-50k in "prime spots" may be better as a less drastic nuclear option. It's the sort of money you'll have to stop for a second and think "do I want to go to the bank to get this money or can I not be bothered?" as opposed to the current average bid sitting at around 1k, which most people have as pocket change*.

* this is not an invitation for people to brag about carrying 100k as pocket change i literally do not care

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Arienette » Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:50 am

Kuma wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:38 am
Increased bid pricing by several orders of magnitude may seem like a fix on the surface of it but honestly all it'll do is turn a facility for making money (a shop) into something only accessible to people that already have money. While this is realistic, I don't like the idea.

Increased bid pricing but just to, say, 10-50k in "prime spots" may be better as a less drastic nuclear option. It's the sort of money you'll have to stop for a second and think "do I want to go to the bank to get this money or can I not be bothered?" as opposed to the current average bid sitting at around 1k, which most people have as pocket change*.

* this is not an invitation for people to brag about carrying 100k as pocket change i literally do not care
I see your point but IME you have to start with some moderate gold and other resources in order to be in a position to run a decent shop.

Characters who can’t afford a tens-of-thousands bid price are likely to be precisely the ones to fill a shop with +1 loot items for 5k gold, or stock it with nothing at all and walk away.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:19 am

I think the bid system is a pretty big gold sink as is and any increase would make being on the losing end as often as I have been unbearable. I also think there is a lot of rose-tinted glasses about how good shops used to be. There have been stretches of a year plus where i just ignored every shop in the mercantile before the bid system, because they were all owned by people who used that location to overcharge for everything. For an easy example of what I mean, going to the shadovar/sencliff and buying barkskin potions for less than 60 gold and selling them for 120 to new and unaware players. Now you could make the case for capitalism, or that the fact that barkskins are not readily available in cordor is the real issue, but I also think it takes a certain level of grime to gorge your fellow players so much that I am not a fan of. So, if given the choice between someone who may not immediately know how to run a shop having a chance to figure it out at the risk of a few weeks of it being a crappy shop before they give it up and a return to the rich price gorging to get richer, yeah I'm for the new guys getting their shot. There are still plenty of good shops around the server, and while i have noticed a shortage of adamantine goods on the surface (probably because again the price gorging is real) I have been starting to find chunks at a reasonable rate again so that will move to correct itself soon.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Skibbles » Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:08 am

I think this is just an unfortunate byproduct of the bidding overhaul.

Now that things are fair it is guaranteed that interested players without immense connections, whether through discord or RP, can get shops and do merchant RP to their heart's content. This is great!

However it is also simultaneously guaranteed that the lowest common denominator also has an equal chance to get that same shop and fill it with eventide heavy flails and overpriced blueleaf samples and then roll three days later while the shop idles. Not so great.

This is also the case with (guild)housing, but ultimately this is the price paid for fairness of accessibility. I haven't been a fan of removing roleplaying from property, but as Arelith can only get larger I think we'll be seeing more of the 'hands off' approach.

Increasing the price of shop bidding seems like it's going to skew in favor of players/characters with connections all over again, sans the opportunity to roleplay, so I really don't think this is a solution.
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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by ReverentBlade » Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:03 am

Shops should be an avenue to make money, not sink it. Half a million is insane. That just makes the already rich richer.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Aradin » Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:04 am

Skibbles wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:08 am
I think this is just an unfortunate byproduct of the bidding overhaul.
Agreed. As a preamble I want to be clear I've got my biases on this topic as someone who very much enjoys the merchant playstyle. I think that owning a shop, particularly one in a well-trafficked area, confers a certain responsibility on the owner to offer something of worth. The DMs say if you own a quarter you have to use it, at least a little bit, for roleplay, right? If you have a ship you have to sail it. If you have a guildhouse you have to fill it with other players. If you're doing nothing with x limited resource, you probably shouldn't own it. In that vein I think there should be a little onus to put some reasonable effort into a shop if you have one. Not like you have to spend all your time doing it or anything, but a modicum of effort into making a good shop. So much of the gameplay experience, from dungeon running to decorating one's quarter, is impacted by the quality of shops across the server. If every player shop were filled with vendor trash, I think Arelith would be less fun to play. So I'm generally all for initiatives that improve the quality of player shops.

Here are my thoughts, then; take 'em with my bias in mind.
While I very much enjoyed the effort to find shop owners and strike deals to acquire a better shop under the old system, I understand that player groups OOC hoarded properties. That was a bummer, clearly not in the spirit of the game, and really hard to police. So I supported then and support now the switch to the new auction system. For the most part I appreciate its even-handed fairness, but on the other hand I occasionally get frustrated when I see shops being poorly utilized by disinterested shopkeeps. A waste of an opportunity, you know? Shops make money for the owner, sure (but heads up, they likely won't make money for you if you don't put any effort into them) but they're also 1) terrific roleplay tools, particularly for merchant-focused characters, 2) boons to directly help other players, as mentioned in my first paragraph, and 3) a very limited resource that shouldn't be purchased just because you want somewhere to maybe earn a couple coins on some random B-tier loot you discovered. That's what temp stalls are for.
The mercantile aspect of Arelith gameplay - watching the markets, trying to find a niche, going about the whole merchant roleplay experience - that's a whole lot of fun! And it's nice to see characters who want to do that get the tools they need. So when I see them getting stuffed out by the RNG auction system, I start to wonder if there's a way to fine-tune the system a little.

The more I think about it and the more responses I read here, I'm less certain that upping auction bids, even if it's just for shops in prime locations, is a good change. I do wonder if there's a magic solution out there that could prevent OOC shop trading + hoarding, but still provide some way for your roleplay to matter when it comes to obtaining a shop. We're a roleplay server after all; it's nice to see roleplay rewarded rather than chance. I've no idea what this system might look like but a merchant can dream!

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:29 am

I really like the bidding system, it's an absolutely amazing change. There are so many opportunities now to get a shop. And if you run a good shop, even if it's not in a prime location people will learn about it and you will have a lot of regulars. I'm selling out of stock faster than I can make it. I'd rather see bad and mismanaged shops around than return to the old system where there were bad and mismanaged shops that would switch hands without anyone else having a chance at owning it.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Duchess Says » Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:39 am

I think a lot of these bad shops are bought with good intentions but the reality of keeping them stocked with top notch stuff is overwhelming and the player can't keep up. So they pad it out with junk or semi-junk with the intent of doing better later. It's not like they have some sinister plan to fill a shop with junk, it's just a placeholder that becomes permanent.

In a way, that's fine and fair. This is a game, we should be allowed to try something and fail and try again. Maybe the problem is the owners of these failed shops are not being nudged to just give it up already and they keep that shop when it's less and less likely anything will ever come of it.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Biolab00 » Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:51 am

I'll still repeat my piece.
Increasing bid price doesn't solve anything.
Prime location shop only have -this- many, and frankly, rich players are more than prime location shop.
Increasing bid price only benefits rich player. For example, a 1 million bid price, is no more than a puck of their hair. It means to say that you will decrease the number of potential bidder but increase the potential bidder of the rich ones.
The scale is tilted in the wrong way, if you increase the bid price. tbh, i'm a rich player myself. I know the fact well.

To remove and prevent dis-interested party from owning a shop, you'll need to remove the bid system. However-
Having player dis-interested in shop management is better than having a faction that will forever owns the shop among their own internal party.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Wethrinea » Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:13 am

Bad shops can be solved by an active government where that is possible through eviction.

The bid system is a vast improvement over how it used to be, and has made it possible for a lot more characters to get a shop in desirably locations, like the mercantile in Cordor. The downside of course is that not everyone have the time or interest to run such a shop, to the frustration of more committed merchants. But I don't think there is any solution there that will not also make it harder for new characters to get a shop.

If I were to change anything, I'd like to see more temp shops in surface hubs. The square in Cordor for instance.
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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Tabby » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:03 am

Aradin wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:51 pm
I agree!

While I think off-in-the-boonies shops should keep a low bid so as to be accessible by low-level characters & casual players, I could support the idea of shops in prime locations having bids of something like 100k and a shop value of up to 500k. Having to pony up half a million for a prime location is enough to stop characters who want it "just because" from bidding, while still being affordable to characters who intend to make a go at serious salescraft.
Now.. i havent even read the rest of the posts.
I disagree.. the shops should be affordable for new characters, with gold purse that is affordable, giving them a chance to become rich.
More or less, people that can afford to put in 500000 would already had a shop before or are Epic Characters that already have grinded equipment in the millions in value.
It should be fair for all.. even i would claim, that after a certain earnings of millions and millions, do you really need to have a shop, to earn even more millions and millions?

As it is now, everyone can afford it, and everyone gets a chance, and there will be more gold diversity..

In the end, the new rich owner will buy stuff, from other shops, to get those neat runic things. And it all circulates, nice and neat.

It is also an opportunity for some not doing lots of merchanting, to suddenly involve more deeply into it..

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:20 am

Aradin wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:04 am
I think that owning a shop, particularly one in a well-trafficked area, confers a certain responsibility on the owner to offer something of worth. The DMs say if you own a quarter you have to use it, at least a little bit, for roleplay, right? If you have a ship you have to sail it. If you have a guildhouse you have to fill it with other players. If you're doing nothing with x limited resource, you probably shouldn't own it. In that vein I think there should be a little onus to put some reasonable effort into a shop if you have one.
I actually agree with you here, but there has to be a little leeway for them to get it off the ground. Especially with the lottery system, since it's not like you are getting a shop when you are good and ready to have one. You are getting one when you get lucky.

The thing is, unlike ships and guildhouses, players have ic means to deal with bad shops in prime locations (at least on the surface, I don't know if the underdark works the same way). That's pretty much the entire role of the trade minister in cordor, keep an eye on the shops. So while of course they should take every step to help improve the current owner they can, if said owner just flat out refuses to do anything with it it's totally ic to give them the boot. Governments likes taxes after all. Or, if you prefer like some folks on discord, Lawful thievery.

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Re: Shop bidding system

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:26 am

Arienette wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:31 am
What I’m taking about is shops that shift owners 2-3 times without even an honest attempt to stock them. This is what I am seeing as a Bad Thing.
Yeah that probably doesnt really happen. Like.. sure, it can happen sometimes once, but 2-3 times on a row on the same shop? Come on mate, that's one in a million. Most people who bid on shops have at least a general idea in their head on what they would do with it. They may not end up going forward with their plans, and they arent as emotionally invested into the shop as they would be if they paid someone 1mil gold for it, but they do spend some coins on it with a general idea of "oooh! a shop! That's good! I'll be rich!" at the very least.

And yeah sure every once in a while a shop sits empty for a few days but that's really the only downside I can think of and it's something we should tolerate.

I still very much prefer the high turnover. It helps me (and everyone else equally) get a shop more easily when I do actually want to RP a merchant.
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