Shop bidding system

[Seekeepeek]

I don't think the players who get the shop are not willing to use it, they just forget they placed a bid on them.

Lots of players lead busy lives outside the game, and 3 days before bidding close is a long time. i kept forgetting i had placed a bid on a shop, i think maybe moving it down from 3 to 1 day would help a lot on the issue.

[Arienette]

It’s happening right now in at least 2 locations I have had my eye on.

Just to clarify, I don’t necessarily think that the ONLY or BEST solution is to increase the bid cost and I am not really advocating for getting rid of the bid system.

Just pointing out that it comes with its own set of issues and wondering if it’s something that deserves to be looked into.

[-XXX-]

Why not make shops erase all wares when a new owner takes them over?

This would ensure that people are bidding on the shop stall, not the wares in it.

[Arienette]

Why not make shops erase all wares when a new owner takes them over?

This would ensure that people are bidding on the shop stall, not the wares in it.

When a shop lease expires and the bid period starts, anyone can grab the things inside for free.

[Aradin]

I think a lot of these bad shops are bought with good intentions but the reality of keeping them stocked with top notch stuff is overwhelming and the player can't keep up. So they pad it out with junk or semi-junk with the intent of doing better later. It's not like they have some sinister plan to fill a shop with junk, it's just a placeholder that becomes permanent.

I actually agree with you here, but there has to be a little leeway for them to get it off the ground. Especially with the lottery system, since it's not like you are getting a shop when you are good and ready to have one. You are getting one when you get lucky.

Agreed. I don't assume players are malicious, but that those new to running a shop don't know what they're getting into. I suspect most people are going to want to give it a shot at some point and I think that's great. Everyone should have a chance to run a shop if they want to try it out. But we have thousands of players and what, a hundred shops across the server, so I wonder if there's a way that can allow people to try out shop ownership but minimize the detriments Arienette listed in the thread opener.

The thing is, unlike ships and guildhouses, players have ic means to deal with bad shops in prime locations (at least on the surface, I don't know if the underdark works the same way). That's pretty much the entire role of the trade minister in cordor, keep an eye on the shops.

Yeah! I'd say the surface has a pretty good situation in terms of the best shops being able to be policed by other characters; ie. the Cordor trade minister. I personally like that because taking up a shop in these locations signs you up for roleplay in the sense of having to answer to the trade minister. Depending on who the trade minister character is, you can play by the rules, you can blackmail them if they threaten to evict you, you can bribe them or sweet-talk them into getting you a shop in their jurisdiction, you can engage in all sorts of ways that you can't when the target of your interaction is a sign.
The Underdark does not have the equivalent when it comes to its prime shops. The 7 best shops in the city (5 in the Hub + 2 in the upstairs Hub (also arguably the 4 in the Boreal Keep, but offhand I can't remember if the owner of the Boreal Keep has the power to evict those shopkeepers)) have no oversight.

[Kalthariam]

I'm not really a fan of the bidding system, and it feels like I'm literally just wasting my money attempting to bid on shops at this point. Temporary Stalls don't seem to bring any attention or sales either, so at this point I'm just selling everything to vendors, outside of a few key items I can get ahold of that I might be able to trade via word of mouth.

I get the system before was frustrating for some because it caused some shops to only be owned by in groups, but the bidding system feels absolutely futile as well as a waste of coin. At least from my experience as someone putting bids on every shop in the UD hub and tread stone that I can find.

I don't really have suggestions as to make it better, because I do understand what was wrong with the previous way it was done, I don't know if there's a perfect way to do this, but I know I personally simply lost interest in trying to obtain a shop at this point.

[Duchess Says]

Agreed. I don't assume players are malicious, but that those new to running a shop don't know what they're getting into. I suspect most people are going to want to give it a shot at some point and I think that's great. Everyone should have a chance to run a shop if they want to try it out. But we have thousands of players and what, a hundred shops across the server, so I wonder if there's a way that can allow people to try out shop ownership but minimize the detriments Arienette listed in the thread opener.

I would love to see temp shops that last one day instead of one hour. One hour means you have to stand there and watch it, that's not really enough time to log out or do a dungeon or meeting and come back without risking losing it all. One hour shops generally don't sell enough to be worth the hour of standing there either. Yes there are exceptions and if you snag a high traffic spot and hustle passerby it can be worth it but I mean, regular shop owners don't have to do that.

So one-day shops could be a nice way to let players occasionally unload some high value items or stored up crafts and have the shop experience. It's enough time to get customers and it's not so long that you're tying up a valuable resource for a week if you don't have the merchandise to keep up.

[Griefmaker]

Agreed. I don't assume players are malicious, but that those new to running a shop don't know what they're getting into. I suspect most people are going to want to give it a shot at some point and I think that's great. Everyone should have a chance to run a shop if they want to try it out. But we have thousands of players and what, a hundred shops across the server, so I wonder if there's a way that can allow people to try out shop ownership but minimize the detriments Arienette listed in the thread opener.

I would love to see temp shops that last one day instead of one hour. One hour means you have to stand there and watch it, that's not really enough time to log out or do a dungeon or meeting and come back without risking losing it all. One hour shops generally don't sell enough to be worth the hour of standing there either. Yes there are exceptions and if you snag a high traffic spot and hustle passerby it can be worth it but I mean, regular shop owners don't have to do that.

So one-day shops could be a nice way to let players occasionally unload some high value items or stored up crafts and have the shop experience. It's enough time to get customers and it's not so long that you're tying up a valuable resource for a week if you don't have the merchandise to keep up.

I'd be fine with even 3 RL hour temporary shops. And more temporary shops in centralized locations (sort of like how Guldorand has that open market right at its entrance, even though it would probably be better off in the main plaza where everyone congregates).

But I agree that 1 RL hour is kind of a pain.

[Aradin]

So one-day shops could be a nice way to let players occasionally unload some high value items or stored up crafts and have the shop experience. It's enough time to get customers and it's not so long that you're tying up a valuable resource for a week if you don't have the merchandise to keep up.

I suspect one-day stalls would simply be sat on as pseudo-permanent shops. It's not too much effort to log in once a day to refresh a stall, especially if you share it between multiple renters. I can easily imagine factions OOC coordinating to make sure a 1-day "temp" stall in a valuable location never leaves their ownership. A stall timer of a few hours seems like a good QoL improvement while still being too much of a pain to be worth holding onto forever.

[Duchess Says]

Perhaps the option of 3-6, or 12 hours and no option to renew, even limit characters to one rental a week.

Even if they're difficult to acquire that's still far more useful than 1 hour shops which are almost always unused or not worth the effort to use. With some exceptions, I know that's not universal and you can do okay in the Hub bar on a weekend or with the Bendir shop during an event and so on.

[RedGiant]

Hate the bidding system.

It would be tolerable if it returned your gold to you if you lost the bid. Ive never won a bid yet and I've bid on many, many shops.

Crap shops, which I define as either bad/useless/no inventory and/or terrible pricing, abound.

I had much better luck in the old system and played several successful merchants for a number of years on each. The new system just makes me feel disappointed and fleeced.

[dominantdrowess]

As a player who plays CONTINUOUSLY I like the bidding system for a few reasons:

1) It gets players who can't be on during prime-time the ability to participate. I have never been a fan of how Andunor Hub shops trade hands during the hours of the old shop owners, meaning players in odd hours cannot get associated enough with these groups to get the economic opportunity in many cases.

2) The bidding system for single quarter houses, and for shops in most public places reduces stagnation. I have never been a fan of economic opportunity passing from one AFK person to another AFK person.

3) Active players with a lot of community awareness still have a (proportional) advantage, as I can, for instance, apply for many shops and quarters at once, and - even do them in order of raffle expiration to prioritize ones I want; so while your active hours are not the ONLY means of getting a shop, a player who spends time playing the game gets more opportunities than an AFK person.

4) I like that as a settlement leader, I like being able to tell players that I cannot guarantee them a shop as I don't control who gets them. It reduces my personal responsibility and stress in a system where I've already got a lot of pressure on my shoulders to stay on top of multiple factions, interactions, and groups.

=============================

Note: Raffle System on Quarter System
I think this bidding system is, in general, healthy, although the way it is currently setup, I think it is unhealthy for guild halls requiring a noble title, since ... in general? I think those should in part, be elected officials and local nobility determining who gets to sit in those locations:

The Erudite Arcanum's Boreal Keep - and many other organizations with 40+ year IC histories (and in some cases 100 years), if they go up for bid due to an initiate inside not having a noble title when randomly selected can cause tons and tons of historical fixtures, books, and things to suddenly become unavailable, and a lot of active players RPs and relationships to be disrupted.

I also think that, if for instance Ilphaeryl Xun'viir was ever suddenly assassinated (AS AN EXAMPLE ONLY! I LOVE YOU, DON'T YOU DARE!) and decided it was a good time to roll ... kicking 100 years of RP and countless historical artifacts and an active faction to the curb is also a bad idea when passing of the baton, and the raffle system actually DISCOURAGES this kind of play and does more to ENCOURAGE stagnation in this instance than it's actual intent.

The ability to hand off these guild halls to someone else with a noble title actually reduce stagnation as an inactive player doesn't feel like they have all the weight on their own soldiers with continuous perfection. It can allow characters to retire/roll without having to worry about every character that trusted them being tossed to the wind for entirely arbitrary reasons.

These things already require nobility, which hurts the 'random raffle to quarter owners inside' of these buildings since because of recruiting requirements, they're often a mixed bag.

Another instance where I think it is a bad idea is 'The Dreadnaught' given that ... districts literally pay MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of gold to acquire it ... and then, suddenly the actual captaincy is up for a raffle, rather than going to a character a district leader trusts to be active or has a reputation the crew trusts, linking ship upgrades, locks, and ammo lockers and other necessities ALSO worth millions of gold to an incredibly random element.

Example: Gorehound recently lost the dreadnaught when he thought he refreshed it, still having a quarter INSIDE the barracks, and the Dreadnaught crew itself being entirely active, but there being no secure way to pass it off to preserve active RP means there is no effective way to pass it off, no matter how justified the RP of passing the baton to a new generation of active leaders.

In general? I think this raffle system is an amazing tool, but I do think there are areas where it would be healthier for Arelith to peel it back. Small rental properties, shops, and things are absolutely great to have the raffle system on though to encourage as close to equal opportunity as we can get... but I also think many people who have enjoyed RPing around many of Arelith's oldest institutions can agree with this.

[Arienette]

Since making this post I have noticed the same issue a few times.

And at least one one going example at this moment (someone won a bid this past weekend, has placed no items and not even changed the name of the shop)

[AstralUniverse]

Since making this post I have noticed the same issue a few times.

And at least one one going example at this moment (someone won a bid this past weekend, has placed no items and not even changed the name of the shop)

*a bunch of people reading and are now wondering if they bid on something recently and forgot about it*

[TurningLeaf]

I would prefer to see the process decoupled from coin and paired instead to activity. For example - winner is random but had to re-input into the draw every day for 3 days.

[Eyeliner]

Since making this post I have noticed the same issue a few times.

And at least one one going example at this moment (someone won a bid this past weekend, has placed no items and not even changed the name of the shop)

*a bunch of people reading and are now wondering if they bid on something recently and forgot about it*

You really should get a notification when you log in that you won a shop.

[Arienette]

Since making this post I have noticed the same issue a few times.

And at least one one going example at this moment (someone won a bid this past weekend, has placed no items and not even changed the name of the shop)

*a bunch of people reading and are now wondering if they bid on something recently and forgot about it*

You really should get a notification when you log in that you won a shop.

I mean, I’m not opposed to this in principle.

But in the spirit of my OP: if you aren’t active enough in the area where the shop is, and you don’t care enough to check up on the shop a few days after you bid on it, do you REALLY want the shop? Or are you just bidding on it because you can?

[Sincra]

Adding a notification to something a player should ideally be keeping track of is work we do not need to be doing.

If another dev wants to do it then by all means, but otherwise it's going to be low on the agenda as there is a simple solution, players keep track.

[Eyeliner]

*a bunch of people reading and are now wondering if they bid on something recently and forgot about it*

You really should get a notification when you log in that you won a shop.

I mean, I’m not opposed to this in principle.

But in the spirit of my OP: if you aren’t active enough in the area where the shop is, and you don’t care enough to check up on the shop a few days after you bid on it, do you REALLY want the shop? Or are you just bidding on it because you can?

I'm not sure what's wrong with "bidding on it because I can?" I mean maybe I don't go to Guildorand much but if I got a shop there I would? I don't think being active in an area has ever been a prerequisite, maybe getting a reason to stay like that is how you get interested enough to get involved?

Presently you have to bid on dozens of shops before winning the lottery and it's easy to forget, so I thought it would be a nice thing to get notified, plus might cut down on shops that sit empty because the winner didn't come back and check... If there's hostility to that, sorry.

[Arienette]

You really should get a notification when you log in that you won a shop.

I mean, I’m not opposed to this in principle.

But in the spirit of my OP: if you aren’t active enough in the area where the shop is, and you don’t care enough to check up on the shop a few days after you bid on it, do you REALLY want the shop? Or are you just bidding on it because you can?

I'm not sure what's wrong with "bidding on it because I can?" I mean maybe I don't go to Guildorand much but if I got a shop there I would? I don't think being active in an area has ever been a prerequisite, maybe getting a reason to stay like that is how you get interested enough to get involved?

Presently you have to bid on dozens of shops before winning the lottery and it's easy to forget, so I thought it would be a nice thing to get notified, plus might cut down on shops that sit empty because the winner didn't come back and check... If there's hostility to that, sorry.

I wouldn’t say I’m hostile to the idea. But back in the day, a settlement would have 5-7 shops. If some random character from another settlement somehow bought the shop, the settlement could/would literally just take the shop from that character and outright give it to an active member of the settlement who would make good use of it. This CAN be abused but it can also be used to promote RP and settlement activity.

Now, some random character from another settlement can and will win the shop, then never use it, or just put a few junk items in it and let it sit there “just because”. And nothing can be done about it.

Having a notification to let the shop “winner” know they won, and allow them to drag out the “do basically nothing with it until the settlement manages to find them and evict them for wasting space” seems like it would just make the current situation worse.

[Xerah]

I'd just make a policy that if you don't contact city management within a day of winning a shop, you will be evicted.

[Good Character]

I would just lax the policy of interaction some. You're able to pin letters to shops and quarter doors, so roleplayed communication could easily be facilitated that way.

Also DMs would get with settlement leaders to advise them that IC policies need to exist (e.g. expected pricing, crafter gear vs. chest trash, what race can own shops, if you're required to be on a list before you can own a shop, etc.) so players don't get blindsided when settlement leaders begin to strip shops.

[Xerah]

Yep, I would consider all of those methods you listed as contacting the city.

Lame/empty shops suck for everyone. PCs are able to do something about it, but you take so much OOC heat for it that it's often not worth it. At least if that's the policy, people know before bidding on a shop (Even though they'll still complain)

[Eyeliner]

Once you have the shop absolutely you should be a part of the community one way or another but I'd never write off some new arrival who got lucky on a bid as unworthy because they didn't have history. We all have to start somewhere. One of my best characters became leader of a certain area and that was never the plan but I happened to find a quarter there so that's where they stuck around.

[Arienette]

I'd just make a policy that if you don't contact city management within a day of winning a shop, you will be evicted.

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding was that property evictions followed the same lines as exiles.

As in, a city official had to interact with the subject fact to face before taking mechanical action.