Shop bidding system

[Arienette]

Once you have the shop absolutely you should be a part of the community one way or another but I'd never write off some new arrival who got lucky on a bid as unworthy because they didn't have history. We all have to start somewhere. One of my best characters became leader of a certain area and that was never the plan but I happened to find a quarter there so that's where they stuck around.

Things certainly can play out this way, and I have seen it happen!

But, it’s far more likely to turn out “bad.”

One of the most convincing theories of why Guldorand City “failed to take off”: in a relatively short time, most of the property (shops and quarters), especially in the Free City we’re owned by “Cordor Commuters.” A catch-all term for characters who spent all their time in Cordor or other cities, and used their property in Guldorand effectively just as storage. This stifled RP in Guldorand and never allowed it to build any feeling of community.

[Rei_Jin]

The issue with the shop bidding system is similar to the house bidding system; in order to be even-handed in giving everyone the chance to win a lease, it removes roleplay from the outcome.

The reality is that if you want to amass wealth on Arelith, you benefit greatly from having a store, and not just a random store, but a store in a great spot.

I’m currently playing my second merchant-focussed character and loving it, but only because I have enough knowledge of the server to make things work for me (and I’ve had a huge chunk of good luck).

As it stands, I am in favour of the bidding system, but I would like to see some roleplay aspects introduced to the mechanic.

What do I mean?

My suggestion:
If you wish to bid on a property and you have citizenship for the area it is in, you get two “tickets” for your one bid.
If you have citizenship and one other permanent property in the area it is in, you get three “tickets” for your one bid.
If the area does not have citizenship, but you have a permanent property in the nearby area, you get two “tickets” for your one bid.

This would make it more likely that properties would go to folk who are invested in the area where their store is, and therefore also increase roleplay flow in that area, whilst at the same time still giving everyone a chance at winning the property.

Remember as well (AFAIK) that all settlements have properties below the threshold for bidding, meaning that someone who is relatively new to the area who secures a room at the inn and buys citizenship, has a good chance of securing a store that is up for bidding… and if they by chance secured a store without the other two pieces, they’d be more likely to be able to secure a nice home.

And while we’re at it, can properties that are up for bidding please be unlocked for viewing? Buying houses sight unseen is irritating.

[ReverentBlade]

The issue with the shop bidding system is similar to the house bidding system; in order to be even-handed in giving everyone the chance to win a lease, it removes roleplay from the outcome.

The reality is that if you want to amass wealth on Arelith, you benefit greatly from having a store, and not just a random store, but a store in a great spot.

I’m currently playing my second merchant-focussed character and loving it, but only because I have enough knowledge of the server to make things work for me (and I’ve had a huge chunk of good luck).

As it stands, I am in favour of the bidding system, but I would like to see some roleplay aspects introduced to the mechanic.

What do I mean?

My suggestion:
If you wish to bid on a property and you have citizenship for the area it is in, you get two “tickets” for your one bid.
If you have citizenship and one other permanent property in the area it is in, you get three “tickets” for your one bid.
If the area does not have citizenship, but you have a permanent property in the nearby area, you get two “tickets” for your one bid.

This would make it more likely that properties would go to folk who are invested in the area where their store is, and therefore also increase roleplay flow in that area, whilst at the same time still giving everyone a chance at winning the property.

Remember as well (AFAIK) that all settlements have properties below the threshold for bidding, meaning that someone who is relatively new to the area who secures a room at the inn and buys citizenship, has a good chance of securing a store that is up for bidding… and if they by chance secured a store without the other two pieces, they’d be more likely to be able to secure a nice home.

And while we’re at it, can properties that are up for bidding please be unlocked for viewing? Buying houses sight unseen is irritating.

This is all just mechanical gentrification, which is a bad idea. I was just recently in a situation where shop availability determined the community my merchant character invested in, not the other way around. Wise people typically make sure they have a job in a city before buying a house there.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I have an idea, but it will take a bit of work. Don't know if anyone would be interested in doing it either. But I would break the shops into three tiers based on location and a few other factors, and then require a set amount of sales in the temporary shop to be able to bid on it per tier. Tier one, 100k in sales in the temporary shops, tier two, 300k in sales, tier three 700k in sales. You could also have the "crappy" locations work on the current bid system and call them tier 0.

This would make it so dedicated merchants with a proven track record of sales will be the ones who win the shops. And the shops off the beaten path could be for people who really just want to slap the runic stuff for obscene prices in it.

[ReverentBlade]

My permanent shops do just fine but I absolutely do not have the real-world time to faff about babysitting temp shops. Totally different ball games.

[Eyeliner]

Not a bad idea but seems easy to game it, like have a friend buy you out then return the money. There would have to be a way to get past that.

Giving characters a little edge based on citizenship (and maybe like, the Silver Palm feat or 30+ investment in appraise?) seems a way to give a bit of advantage but it has to stay "a bit", like just increase the odds a little not making it worthless to try without these things. Otherwise we're getting back to where we were before the change and it's all in manipulative players' hands keeping shops and quarters "in the family". Not that I particularly love the current system and placing dozens of bids that go nowhere all over the island either, it seems like a placeholder waiting for a better idea.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Not a bad idea but seems easy to game it, like have a friend buy you out then return the money. There would have to be a way to get past that.

Giving characters a little edge based on citizenship (and maybe like, the Silver Palm feat or 30+ investment in appraise?) seems a way to give a bit of advantage but it has to stay "a bit", like just increase the odds a little not making it worthless to try without these things. Otherwise we're getting back to where we were before the change and it's all in manipulative players' hands keeping shops and quarters "in the family". Not that I particularly love the current system and placing dozens of bids that go nowhere all over the island either, it seems like a placeholder waiting for a better idea.

I like the idea of using appraise and silverpalm for bonuses to odds.

[The GrumpyCat]

We have had the new shop bidding system in place for a while. In the time since the change, I have been actively playing a character who is very involved with merchanting, and frequently is on the lookout for shops and such.

I have noticed something frequently and consistently enough to call it a “trend”.

With the old system, it was certainly possible that a P/C with no real interest in running a shop could happen by an open one, happen to click on the sign, and randomly decide to purchase the shop lease.

With the new system, it is often immediately apparent that a shop is up for bid. The shop is empty, you click on the sign and see that it is open for auction. The shop stays in the bidding lease for something like 3 IRL days.

Now, human nature is such that everyone likes to win an auction! And the cost to bid on the shop is trivial, so I suspect that all/most characters that interact with the shop over the course of days places a bid.

The result seems to be that a large number of bids are placed by people with no real intention of running a shop. Probably more than are placed by people who do really want to run one.

So what seems to be happening is that a lot of shops end up getting picked up by disinterested PCs. Then they never bother to stock or refresh it and a week later it is up for bid again! Or they stock it with a few junk items and a couple weeks later settlement leaders have to evict them and the process starts all over.

Me evidence for this is the high turnover of shops, even in desirable areas. Shops that are effectively unused for IRL weeks at a time as they repeatedly go up for bid, are won by disinterested PCs, and the process repeats.

At the risk of drifting into “suggestion” territory, perhaps the cost to bid should be significantly higher? Like high enough that some people will actually choose not to bid if they don’t really want a shop?

There's a bit in this thread, so mostly going to unpack this starter post.

I'm really not sure that this is a big issue, honestly.

if we were vastly short on the numbers of shops avaiable, then maybe. But frankly we arn't. So a few shops get under utlized for a bit. Oh well? There's plenty of other shops around.

I can I suppose see an argument for raising the prices a little in some areas, but it'd be a careful to make it a reasonable amount - so that it's still very affordable, but makes someone think a bit before bidding. But even then I'm not entirely convinced its a thing that's really needed. In fact I wonder if it's in a way a bad thing.

Sure it can be frustrating not getting That Thing You Wanted in one of the main, easy to reach shops. But doesn't that just encourage folk to branch out? To go to places they wouldn't usually go to get that awsome bargain? Isn't that a good thing for the server over all? To spread people out a little and encourage exploration, travel, and so forth?

[BlueRadish]

Please lower the bidding time to 36 hours and increase the bid cost to 10,000 gold.

There are too many bids from non-serious shopowners with it this low and long.

[AstralUniverse]

Please lower the bidding time to 36 hours and increase the bid cost to 10,000 gold.

There are too many bids from non-serious shopowners with it this low and long.

It wont matter. you're still going to get the same amount of unserious bids. If the shop is in a good location, people will easily pay 10k or even more just for the "what if" in their head. Ultimately resulting in them not doing anything particularly useful or interesting with the shop but at 10k all you're really doing is excluding low level characters and new players with lower economical know-how.

I think, instead, if this is indeed a problem, it can be addressed via higher taxes. And I mean much higher. 50% of the sale value gone like a fart in the wind and then maybe we'll see higher investment into face-to-face trade and people wont care about shops all that much.

[BlueRadish]

Personally I’d bid on anything that’s under 10k, but 10k or 20k or more and I’d think twice.

It’s the 72 hours per bid that’s the bigger issue. If I’m serious about getting a shop, I’m checking every day. Keeping it short means the serious shipowners get it.

[Curve]

I like that it’s longer and don’t care if a casual player gets a prime shop. There is a vibe sometimes that only players who make big coins should have the best shops. I find this disheartening. The game is about fun and everyone deserves a shot at the fun things the server has to offer: shops, guild houses and whatever.

I think 72 hours helps facilitate more people getting a chance to play with the cool toys.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

People are forgetting the before times, there were just as many bad shops then as there are now. The difference is you never had an opportunity to get any of those shops back then.

[Wings of Peace]

I think the people who are suggesting a fee or a delay are wildly misjudging the current situation of the Arelith economy. 10k is nothing. A player who knows how to make money and wants a shop could drop 10k on every shop in Cordor at the same time if they were gung-ho about it. If a shop was in a remotely desirable location I'd bid 50k on it and its neighbors (assuming they were upgrades for me). Using fees to discourage 'casual' bids is just going to lead to either a more expensive status quo where nothing is different or a situation where you're being outbid not by high rp merchant groups but by solo builds specialized in farming content.

[Arienette]

Obviously this is just one person’s opinion but…

Shops, like guild halls and prime real estate quarters are limited resources that provide the most benefit to the server population and the most fun when they are utilized “well”.

A lvl 5 character who gets a owns a shop next to the bank inside a settlement and stocks it with a few no-value loot items is a Bad Thing. The same way as it’s a Bad Thing if a solo character who never speaks to anyone winds up with a guild hall, etc.

I’m puzzled by the number of people (in this thread, discord, elsewhere) who express the opinion that the new system is wholly better than the old .

In the old system, I would often get a shop. Get a partner or two, and eventually lose interest in the shop or run out of things to sell or decide to stop spending time gathering ingredients or whatever. Then, naturally, I would pass the shop to the partner who was most actively involved.

Now, you can’t do that.

I have recently observed 3 or 4 situations where a shop owner has a couple of contributing partners, but they have lost interest in running the shop. They sell little or nothing in the shop and WOULD release it but don’t want to screw their partners over. So they basically play landlord for the shop lease so as not to leave their IC friends high and dry.

I could go on with examples of how this new system produces strange outcomes. It incentivizes strange behavior.

Was the old system abused sometimes? Almost certainly. But I bet for every time it was abused, it was used well and properly for IC reasons like in my example above about handing it off to a junior partner. Or when one member of a Family/Faction is ready to retire or roll and they want to pass it on to the others.

I am willing to bet there are multiple shops on the server owned today by characters who would be rolled except for the fact they feel obligated to hold the lease so other faction members can continue their merchant crew RP.

[Xerah]

I consider myself one of the “good shop owners” as I can usually make 1million gold in a month with a reasonable shop location.

Why do I like the new system them? Because I’d rather have everyone an equal chance to get the shop than the person who plays 18h a day. I’m sure most of us feel the same (except for those that are always online)

Bad shop owners suck, but they also existed previously too.

No one should feel obligated to stick around to keep running a shop. That’s absolutely bananas. Anyone who feels like this has an extreme overreaction as no one needs a shop to that degree. Release the shop. Finish your story. Other characters can bid on other shops. I can’t believe this kind of thing needs to be stated.

[BlueRadish]

Is access to making gold really the primary concern here? There are other ways of making gold. Running a permanent shop with commitment is about the crafting and merchant RP. Only a few players are that committed to running a fully RP’Ed shop that keeps up and personalizes the inventory with care, but it’s super fun to shop at their stores so in my opinion it should be encouraged.

Player shops is about the only player system here with zero RP required, usually. You used to be able to get into this RP with apprenticeships or rping otherwise with current shop owners. Or with putting in consistent effort checking signs. It made sense to me that, since commitment was needed to run a store well, commitment would be needed to get a prime shop. Now it’s easy to get a shop, but it’s really hard to run one well.

Perhaps some hybrid system could be arranged for the 20% of shops with the highest views? As Xerah says there are many of other shops where equal access will mean you’ll get a shop easily enough with the bid system.

[Hazard]

Not a fan of the system, but I do understand why it's favored over the old one.
I see it as a 'this is why we can't have nice things' scenario. I like when we could RP house and shop sales because it's more realistic, organic and immersive .. but obviously, it was abused and here we are.

[The GrumpyCat]

A lvl 5 character who gets a owns a shop next to the bank inside a settlement and stocks it with a few no-value loot items is a Bad Thing. The same way as it’s a Bad Thing if a solo character who never speaks to anyone winds up with a guild hall, etc.

Then you go to the settlment leader and talk to them about the shop, then they (or their underlings) go to the shop owner and release the shop.

Look, I'm not going to say that there arn't issues with the lottery shop system, there certainly are and some of the points brought up here are very valid, and worth considering!

But I'm going to say this whole: 'this system enables n00bs to own shops and is bad because of this or 'this means that some shops arn't exploited to their full potential and so its is terrible.' is a bad take on the situation.

Like, don't get me wrong - at the very extremes of this (a shop literally empty for months on end) I agree. But, like, you guys do get that this game is uh... a game right? It's fun?

If someone wants to own a shop for a bit of fun, and find it doesn't work out well, oh well? A shop isn't being used to it's best potential for a bit but why is that such an awful thing?

If you're an experienced shop keeper and player, you don't need the best placed shop. Sure you need to advertise more maybe, but you can still earn a good amount of gold.

Good shops do still come up for sale, you just need to be watchful for them. It takes time and energy and effort and, I won't lie, no small amount of luck but it does happen.

There are some shops that arn't in the bidding system too, some of themm in great places. Look for those, talk to thier owners, see what you can do there!

And best of all, where as before the best placed shops might end up going in this revolving door of owners, each passing it from one to the other, with folk not in the ic (or worse still ooc loop) missing out - now everyone gets a chance. Isn't that good?

Again - I'm not saying that the new system doesn't have it's issues. In fact some good ones have been brought up prior to this - but honestly I've noticed no difference in stocking quality from now, to when the system was implemented. If anything I think it's slightly improved. And I think the argument of 'it lets people who arn't 'serious' own shops, people who are only playing for (ick!) fun! This is Wrong!' Is well, really rather eleetist, don't you think?

[AstralUniverse]

I see it as a 'this is why we can't have nice things' scenario. I like when we could RP house and shop sales because it's more realistic, organic and immersive .. but obviously, it was abused and here we are.

I dont really think it is the case tho. 'this is why we cant have nice things' situation is (usually at least?) when something is used in a harmful unintended way and then it's taken away. But when it comes to shop, I think in the old system they were being used the intended way. It's entirely circumstantial that they were being cycled by the same groups of players because of entirely unrelated things, like popularity and playing frequency and the fact we often play with a group of players we enjoy for more than one character, and other factors who were basically decoupled from the property system in that sense, but the point remains. It was being used as intended, and everything that came from that wasnt positive for the server so it was changed to not factor in all of these things.

I, too, think it's more realistic without automated bids, but I also think that realism should take the bench here because in the current new system it's much easier for literally anyone to get a shop, if they really want one and their concept is based on trade and merch (and that was certainly not the case for many, if not most players in the old system).

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I was going to make a long winded post about how shops are fine, but I think Grumpy covered what I would say quite nicely. And I think the key take away from what she said, and something I whole heartedly agree with, is that shops might be better then they have ever been right now. Sure, you have to do a bit more shopping since there is a massive amount of turnover compared to the way it used to be, but you can find deals and steals galore. That wasn't true when the same group of players passed the shop down from one to the next for years on end. It just wasn't.

[msterswrdsmn]

My 2 cents.

In terms of shop -quality-, there hasn't been a huge change in terms of the good shop/bad shop ratio. The pricing of things has gotten outrageous, but thats probably because gold has gotten easier to get than it was 20 years ago (who else remembers it taking a week to get 10K?)

I don't think the bidding system is affecting this in any way, shape, or form. Minus a few instances where shops straight up aren't going up for bidding (seperate bug thread already made). Issues with terrible shops usually boil down to "little/no effort being put in", "really bad prices", or "can't keep up with demand so filler crap is thrown in". Occassionally, you run into the "Using this as a display case/chest with no intention of selling" (who remembers that Rosewind shop with a sword for 99999 gold?), but this is less of an issue now that vaults are a thing.

Terrible shops annoy me. The lack of ability to deal with terrible shops outside of settlements annoys me, short of borderline harrassing the owner. Neither of these two issues in either way, shape or form are really the fault of the bidding system, and have been issues long before the bidding system was in place.

If theres a shop-specific feedback thread that gets started, i'll do a deep-dive into whats wrong with that system. As for the bidding system itself? Its fine. Its mildly irritating to me, as now I can't approach shop owners and ask them to directly sell to me, but it isn't a game-breaker, nor the cause of terrible shops

Edit: Reading a little more...

I DON'T think jacking up the prices for bidding or purchasing is going to fix this. If anything, this is only going to perpetuate -a- cycle. "Hi, let me fork over 100K to make more money!" sort of cycle. Which, if i'm not mistaken, was the exact cycle the bidding system was meant to break (players bidding in the millions for shops/boats). With both the old system and the bidding system, if theres one thing I can say is that it was accessible to everyone when a shop -was- open (for however brief that time period was) because the price of a shop was well within most of the servers grasp.

I do no like the idea of jacking up prices to try to make something more exclusive. That doesn't even begin to fix the issue of terrible shops being terrible, and just makes it even more difficult for a portion of the server to participate in the system.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Minus a few instances where shops straight up aren't going up for bidding (seperate bug thread already made).

This isn't a bug, there are shops that are not on the bid system. its based on the price of the shop, and yeah...some of them are in really good locations. Grumpy mentioned this in her post above.


She also gave really good reasons why bad shops shouldn't annoy you. The most important being "Its just a game".

[msterswrdsmn]

Really? I totally missed that. Whoops. Thanks for pointing it out!

Some shops will still annoy me. That happens! Everyone gets annoyed over something. Rolling a 1 on my save vs. hold person and dying to low level mobs still annoys me. Just move on and have fun!

Its a small pet peeve! Its not like say....Darkest Dungeon infurating. Good game, by the way. Totally recommend it if you like Lovecraftian-isn games and also hate yourself.

[The GrumpyCat]

Really? I totally missed that. Whoops. Thanks for pointing it out!

Some shops will still annoy me. That happens! Everyone gets annoyed over something. Rolling a 1 on my save vs. hold person and dying to low level mobs still annoys me. Just move on and have fun!

Its a small pet peeve! Its not like say....Darkest Dungeon infurating. Good game, by the way. Totally recommend it if you like Lovecraftian-isn games and also hate yourself.

Mmhum. I mean, I get where you're coming from Babylon, absolutly. But what I think is meant here is like...
Have you ever been annoyed by something, yet recognised it's still absolutly ok? E.g. - you're going to work and you get stuck in a red light, but you see people crossing the road. On the one hand you're like 'Ooh, that's irritating, I need to get to work' on the other hand you know that like, these people crossing the road have to get to school/shopping/whatever.
It's like that right? I get it a lot. It /is/ irritating, but you sorta go 'Eh yeah, that's a pain. Oh well. It's still better for others in the long run.'
There should be a word for that.
'Irritation at something you know is absolutly neccesary/good/reasonable, but is still inconveninent for you right then and there.'