[Bard Update] Feedback Thread

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Curve
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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by Curve » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:15 pm

Why does bards get 4 apr at 28 when rogue does not? Do any other 3/4 bab classes get this?

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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by Good Character » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:00 pm

Curve wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:15 pm
Why does bards get 4 apr at 28 when rogue does not? Do any other 3/4 bab classes get this?
Pure spellsword gets the same treatment, but even stronger since it does significantly more damage than a pure bard.

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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by Ork » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:19 pm

An extra attack doesn't really do a lot for a bard considering that they still have abysmal AB and melee damage. Rogues have the benefit of having a high amount of damage that bards simply lack. Besides, you wouldn't want to do a pure rogue - and I don't think we should incentivize a build choice that is in all ways worse than a dipped rogue.

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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by Curve » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:35 pm

This is not that big of a deal. But the issue for me is the inconsistency. I don't think that there is any reason that a pure bard or a spell sword would be more martially inclined than is a pure rogue. Pure rogue is not a smart build choice, but it is a choice some players make. If some classes are going to get QoL freebies it should be consistent and based on something (BAB here) rather than what feels to be arbitrary and based on someone thinking it would be cool.

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msterswrdsmn
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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by msterswrdsmn » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:44 pm

Even halfhearted rogue levels have a very good damage potential. Something that bards just can't match. Even as a STR based bard with end-game enchanted gear and full buffs.

Though, if you're relying on attacking in general and only have 3 APR, your attack score is probably critically low and well and you were never going to be an effective damage dealer to begin with.

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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by Good Character » Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:00 pm

Curve wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:35 pm
This is not that big of a deal. But the issue for me is the inconsistency. I don't think that there is any reason that a pure bard or a spell sword would be more martially inclined than is a pure rogue. Pure rogue is not a smart build choice, but it is a choice some players make. If some classes are going to get QoL freebies it should be consistent and based on something (BAB here) rather than what feels to be arbitrary and based on someone thinking it would be cool.
You'll have an argument when it comes to spellsword; sword is in their title for a reason. I would say being a pure justifies it even more so as they have now mastered martial and magic, especially with how the class features on Arelith portray a spellsword. I believe they're also a full BAB class in every iteration, but likely are a 3/4 BAB class because of how elemental strike works.

Bard is difficult due to the general vagueness of what they are, even if they must be musicians or if their bard song can be interpreted as a war chant. However, I expressed the same as I didn't see how offering bards an extra attack at 28 made any more sense than offering it earlier.

In the 3.5e handbook, Rogue is described as: "While not equal to members of many other classes in combat, a rogue knows how to hit where it hurts, and she can dish out a lot of damage with a sneak attack..."

Also Rogue is described in 5e as: "A rogue would rather make one precise strike, placing it exactly where the attack will hurt the target most, than wear an opponent down with many smaller strikes."

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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by xanrael » Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:12 pm

Overall I like the changes made to bard and have enjoyed playing one or dips of them with some of the synergy. I suspect they'll end up getting some adjustments in the nerf direction that's mechanically justified but I think from an enjoyment/play-ability standpoint the team has done a solid job.

I'll say as far as a thematic standpoint (that has come up in this and other threads) my intro to fantasy was Greek/Roman mythology before I ever picked up LoTR so I tend to liken bardic song to that of Sirens. And 3.5E seems to have a similar thought process with their effects being supernatural or spell-like abilities. I tend to think of it as a power that is invoked by sound sort of like how a medusa's petrifying power is invoked by sight.

So they could play a tune, recite poetry, begin a war chant, or even just whistle C5. The target doesn't have to even like the performance to be affected in the same way that the target doesn't have to like a wizard pointing at them and saying strange things to be affected by Finger of Death. Likewise a mundane person flawlessly mimicking the performance would not get the same effect because they don't have the associated supernatural abilities.

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fulminea
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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by fulminea » Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:22 am

I think it would be sensible to add a feat targeted toward battlebard builds allowing them to sing in full armour and towershield much like the epic Warlock Feat Eldritch Armour.

Similiar to this Abj. Champions are getting still spell lll almost for free, allowing them to cast lvl 9 spells in full heavy armour plus making great melee damage without even the need to multiclass.

So in general warlocks and Abj Champs get to use their most powerful abilities after making relatively mild feat Investments in spell failure reduction, while being potentially pretty powerful (at least spellsword and aoe-lock).

To be 100% real I do not think the Song death by heavy armour/Shield was a called for, bards already needed to do alot of gadgets to be viable melee builds, are vulnerable to dispell and take some practice to be good in pvp.

If this change is unnegtioable, though, lets give them at least an option just like warlocks and spellswords have.

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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by Itikar » Sat May 21, 2022 3:20 pm

I post here, as I see the other bard thread is going into exploring new development directions for the class, while I would like to comment on the last bard song charges changes, now after I have had more chance to test them out.

I am a bit sorry to say that I cannot really see much benefit or purpose in them, at this point. This talking from the standpoint of a bard that had Lasting Inspiration and nothing else. Right now the changes that split the charges in two diffent stacks for Curse Song and Bard Song maybe make the other feats a bit more useful, especially Extra Music, but, at the same time, they do not really make them still worthwhile unless one is into serial grinding of PvE content.

The main issue I see here is that once you have Lasting Inspiration your regular Bard Song charges are rarely consumed. Fundamentally the change that gave cooldown to songs makes them regenerate before Lasting Inspiration has expired. Hence a bard at level 30 uses 1 or 2, maybe 3, charges of regular Bard Song and that's it.

Curse Song on the other hand gets consumed much more, depending on the situation, but on average, that's where the uses were consumed the most.

So, at the end of the day, what it seems to me that the change mostly achieved is that a bard lost on average 7 or 8 Curse Song charges. Curse Song cooldowns, even taking the feats, would still probably be too tight to matter on the long run, although here Extra Music definitely would help, I guess.

By itself, however, the separation of the two skills and their charges is a positive thing, as it allows more class and feature combos, it's just that perhaps the number of charge reduction for Curse Song, since this is essentially what happens for a max level bard, was perhaps undeserved. Or on the other hand, the system of cooldown and durations may need an even deeper change, specifically addressing Lasting Inspiration and a revisal of it.

Anyway, this is the result of my experience, comparing the new system to the old one. I am very happy anyway for the class receiving good attention and new features of this kind.

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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by Itikar » Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:20 am

Fresh from the update, I do not see much point in using Atrocious Aria or Classic Chorus anymore, if they grant the same ac bonus and penalty as the other songs.

There is no comparison, for instance, between 1 damage/1 unisave/2 mindsaves of Classic Chorus now, with the regeneration of Healing Rhythm, the speed of Traveller's Boon or the relevant bonuses of some other songs.

I am not saying that the little nerf is unwarranted or unneeded, just that at this point the songs in question make little sense to be used by themselves.

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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:52 am

Itikar wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:20 am
Fresh from the update, I do not see much point in using Atrocious Aria or Classic Chorus anymore, if they grant the same ac bonus and penalty as the other songs.

There is no comparison, for instance, between 1 damage/1 unisave/2 mindsaves of Classic Chorus now, with the regeneration of Healing Rhythm, the speed of Traveller's Boon or the relevant bonuses of some other songs.

I am not saying that the little nerf is unwarranted or unneeded, just that at this point the songs in question make little sense to be used by themselves.
Sort of the point was to remove them being the top tier PvP songs simply because of the AC. I figure they're best used if you don't have anything better.

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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by Itikar » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:06 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:52 am
Sort of the point was to remove them being the top tier PvP songs simply because of the AC. I figure they're best used if you don't have anything better.
If that is the aim then fine.

Atrocious Aria still seems to have something to go for it, but Classic Chorus looks really underwhelming to me now. It may still have a niche use, but it is a small one at best.

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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:49 am

Peachoo wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:12 am
I am currently levelling a bard quarterbreaker.
The entire build is horribly trash besides that ONE niche thing that they do. I literally die to all mobs. I cannot level alone. The build ACTIVELY makes me seek out roleplay in order to do this one job. It actually makes it super fun. And I think that is a good trade off!! Trading in not being able to do certain dungeons or even things in the game to be able to do the one thing most people can't. It makes you super weak, except for that one thing. And that's how it should be imo.

I don't think removing QB from bard is solving the problem. But making more issues and nerfing a class that doesn't need to be nerfed.

Instead, Rogue should be given more quartbreaking tools that make it easier to reach the high dc levels bards can. That's the real issue here. The song is what helps Bards reach those high dcs. If Rogues had some sort of extra feat or skill or tools they could acquire to make it easier to break into quarters- I think that'd actually make more room for interesting QB rp.

Also Bards are basically rogues with magic. So I think it makes sense they're able to do stuff like this.
First of all before I say what I say, I mostly refer to what /can/ be done and not what you are doing specifically.

Solo quarterbreaking has to go. It's very abusive and exploitive mechanic that requires no RP. at least if you're singing for a rogue it *requires* you to RP and orchestrate the break in rather than it being optional. Neither rogue, bard or anyone else should be able to solo Quarterbreak. We've had people just moving from quarter to quarter every 24 hours breaking everyone's traps and only stealing when they actually find a fat stack of addy ingots or whatever people are reckless enough to leave in quarter storage these days. It has to at least require a second character to make it less effortless if the QB system and rules are staying as they are rn.

About leveling. Again, I dont refer to you specifically or mean to be snarky but the good old phrase "cant balance mechanics around mechanically incompetent players" fits here perfectly. Bard is easy to level solo, even with a combat-worthless build. It's just THAT good of a class right now. I think I'd have easier time soloing a dex/int bard than I did on my battle bard (because on both of them I can do the same thing but the QBer actually has more ac early on from being dex invested). Also another thing to add is that in the current state of bard you only need what... natural 16 dex and 18 int to reach the skill benchmarks so it's really not that build crippling and you can still have decent con and cha to level with. You can possibly get even better numbers if you add 3 cleric evangelist dip with trickery domain. It barely hurts your stats then.

On top of that, the incoming nerf is going to make it more rewarding to invest in int and have a lot of skills so it gives your build a bit of a rise in value, outside of quarterbreaking.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by Rei_Jin » Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:53 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:49 am
On top of that, the incoming nerf is going to make it more rewarding to invest in int and have a lot of skills so it gives your build a bit of a rise in value, outside of quarterbreaking.
Wait, what???

Incoming nerf?

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Re: [Bard Update] Feedback Thread

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:28 pm

Rei_Jin wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:53 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:49 am
On top of that, the incoming nerf is going to make it more rewarding to invest in int and have a lot of skills so it gives your build a bit of a rise in value, outside of quarterbreaking.
Wait, what???

Incoming nerf?
Bard will eventually have its solo quarterbreaking capability removed, and party skill rank increase is limited to skills available to bards rather than all skills. (SK and Sincra have begun to look into this, and changes will come in eventuality)
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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