Gift of the Explorer - Risk of Metagaming?

[Morgy]

Currently this Loremaster gift allows the reveal of maps and also the contents of any unexplored areas that come across your screen - including those hidden areas and locked/secret quarters.

This currently allows players to identify items within quarters that would be completely unknown about IC, or worse, see fixtures that have tags or descriptions revealing the owner of 'hidden ownership' quarters.

Would it be possible to have maps fully explored, without revealing on the main screen what is not in line of sight?

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Currently this Loremaster gift allows the reveal of maps and also the contents of any unexplored areas that come across your screen - including those hidden areas and locked/secret quarters.

This currently allows players to identify items within quarters that would be completely unknown about IC, or worse, see fixtures that have tags or descriptions revealing the owner of 'hidden ownership' quarters.

Would it be possible to have maps fully explored, without revealing on the main screen what is not in line of sight?

It's one or the other without expensive visibility scripts that will create lag, to my understanding. Either the mini-map is fully explored, or it isn't- and if the mini-map is explored, it does it through code that eliminates the Fog of War and thus, reveals whatever's within it, whether or not it's in line of sight or not.

[Morgy]

Currently this Loremaster gift allows the reveal of maps and also the contents of any unexplored areas that come across your screen - including those hidden areas and locked/secret quarters.

This currently allows players to identify items within quarters that would be completely unknown about IC, or worse, see fixtures that have tags or descriptions revealing the owner of 'hidden ownership' quarters.

Would it be possible to have maps fully explored, without revealing on the main screen what is not in line of sight?

It's one or the other without expensive visibility scripts that will create lag, to my understanding. Either the mini-map is fully explored, or it isn't- and if the mini-map is explored, it does it through code that eliminates the Fog of War and thus, reveals whatever's within it, whether or not it's in line of sight or not.

Ah, I see!

Well, personally my preference would be to protect IC investments of secrecy, rather than the minimap which isn't super useful 95% of the time where people navigate by vision ahead or pure memory.

That's just my preference though. The gift is still worth it with the sailing and tracking boosts, besides!

[noj]

Currently this Loremaster gift allows the reveal of maps and also the contents of any unexplored areas that come across your screen - including those hidden areas and locked/secret quarters.

This currently allows players to identify items within quarters that would be completely unknown about IC, or worse, see fixtures that have tags or descriptions revealing the owner of 'hidden ownership' quarters.

Would it be possible to have maps fully explored, without revealing on the main screen what is not in line of sight?

It's one or the other without expensive visibility scripts that will create lag, to my understanding. Either the mini-map is fully explored, or it isn't- and if the mini-map is explored, it does it through code that eliminates the Fog of War and thus, reveals whatever's within it, whether or not it's in line of sight or not.

Ah, I see!

Well, personally my preference would be to protect IC investments of secrecy, rather than the minimap which isn't super useful 95% of the time where people navigate by vision ahead or pure memory.

That's just my preference though. The gift is still worth it with the sailing and tracking boosts, besides!

"95% of the time" is a bit of an much I think. The entire group of people I play with (and originally came to the server with) still use the map to navigate because we haven't spent several years on these maps to commit them all to memory. I don't think removing a QOL thing for people to be able to navigate easier is a good response to "some people MIGHT use it to metagame"

Or just don't label your evil necromancer closet "Lucy's Super Evil Collection of Dresses and Dead people"

[Party in the forest at midnight]

People actually do this stuff. I saw people asking a DM if their characters could see through a window on a quarter door to see some object inside the quarter. It's unfortunate that people are like this, I agree with disabling mechanics that let people see into quarters.

[Eyeliner]

How about turning it off in areas with quarters?

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Huge shoutout to the team for the fast fix on this, thank you.

[Morgy]

It's one or the other without expensive visibility scripts that will create lag, to my understanding. Either the mini-map is fully explored, or it isn't- and if the mini-map is explored, it does it through code that eliminates the Fog of War and thus, reveals whatever's within it, whether or not it's in line of sight or not.

Ah, I see!

Well, personally my preference would be to protect IC investments of secrecy, rather than the minimap which isn't super useful 95% of the time where people navigate by vision ahead or pure memory.

That's just my preference though. The gift is still worth it with the sailing and tracking boosts, besides!

"95% of the time" is a bit of an much I think. The entire group of people I play with (and originally came to the server with) still use the map to navigate because we haven't spent several years on these maps to commit them all to memory. I don't think removing a QOL thing for people to be able to navigate easier is a good response to "some people MIGHT use it to metagame"

Or just don't label your evil necromancer closet "Lucy's Super Evil Collection of Dresses and Dead people"

Okay maybe 95% was a bit high, but the consequence of metagaming in ways like this can severely impact PCs stories in an unfair manner.

Also, I'm more referring to peoples ability to examine fixtures, not just see the name label of them.

But this has been fixed anyway, so, thanks fixers!!

[Rievetel]

There was a suggested update over having fixed the visibility of areas on the map and for characters. The suggestion that [Secret Knowledge: Explorer] will only work in natural areas should simply exclude all areas that are involved with cities, towns, and quarters which have no transitions between quarters. I can still see inside every player owned room and examine all of their fixtures without ever opening the door and with a wall in the way.

TLDR: Is it possible to just make maps like Taverns, Cloven Hoof, Vaults and Sibayad interiors an exception for a player to not have the floor plan of?

I may have misread the recent upcoming updates if this was not yet implemented from the most recent reset from this time posted 3.26.22

[Sincra]

The update will prevent areas tagged as artificial from being revealed.

As per:
https://nwnlexicon.com/index.php?title=GetIsAreaNatural

[MissEvelyn]

Does this fix include dungeons? It would be quite unfortunate if dungeons were also no longer visible.


Metagamers are why we can't have nice things

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Does this fix include dungeons? It would be quite unfortunate if dungeons were also no longer visible.


Metagamers are why we can't have nice things

Most dungeons are probably marked natural. If that's not the case, well ...

I'll have to make a case statement to cross check area resrefs that have quarters and that's gonna be.....


.....a lot of work.


keep me posted.

[xf1313]

Does this fix include dungeons? It would be quite unfortunate if dungeons were also no longer visible.


Metagamers are why we can't have nice things

I share your feelings! Thou I must admit, being able to see what the quarters looks like is great, but how would that become a problem is beyond me...

[Rei_Jin]

Well, say someone has a quarter in a public access area, like a tavern, and they never let anyone in their room, but they have a named shrine to Bane in it.

With the secret of the explorer you can see that through the wall.

With the change so natural areas only are where it works, that can’t happen (except in niche cases)

[MissEvelyn]

Well, say someone has a quarter in a public access area, like a tavern, and they never let anyone in their room, but they have a named shrine to Bane in it.

With the secret of the explorer you can see that through the wall.

With the change so natural areas only are where it works, that can’t happen (except in niche cases)

Why can't people just not metagame that knowledge? Your character has no way of knowing that shrine exists, even if you as the player knows. You may know the layout of the building, but not that each room contains a shrine to Bane.

I know, I know. Expecting such courtesy is asking way too much

[Eyeliner]

Honestly think it would be better if it was turned off only in areas that have quarters instead of natural vs not but I understand that would probably be a lot more work.

As for metagaming I think much of the server is mature enough not to do it outright but it's like with disguise or trying to conceal being a necromancer or warlock, even those who are making an effort not to metagame will be conscious of what they know and it will affect RP. Not always to their advantage, sometimes they overcompensate to make sure they don't use forbidden info (and even refuse to pick up clues IG) which is admirable but also not ideal. Knowing something you're not supposed to can actually be a burden if you're not the kind to take advantage of it and I think it's just better all around to keep some secrets hidden as much as possible for as long as possible.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Honestly think it would be better if it was turned off only in areas that have quarters instead of natural vs not but I understand that would probably be a lot more work.

As for metagaming I think much of the server is mature enough not to do it outright but it's like with disguise or trying to conceal being a necromancer or warlock, even those who are making an effort not to metagame will be conscious of what they know and it will affect RP. Not always to their advantage, sometimes they overcompensate to make sure they don't use forbidden info (and even refuse to pick up clues IG) which is admirable but also not ideal. Knowing something you're not supposed to can actually be a burden if you're not the kind to take advantage of it and I think it's just better all around to keep some secrets hidden as much as possible for as long as possible.

exorbitant amounts of work.

it was easier to switch it to natural areas only

[Hazard]

I don't think most people would metagame, but the problem is it only takes 1 person to metagame and then the secret is out and will be circulated by well meaning players who have no idea that information was obtained by metagaming.

[Tabby]

How about turning it off in areas with quarters?

Yup.. my thougts exactly.. map reveal is only for outside nature anyway, seems like a map isnt suppose to reveal itself?

[Tabby]

Does this fix include dungeons? It would be quite unfortunate if dungeons were also no longer visible.


Metagamers are why we can't have nice things

I agree.. its sad

[ElvenEdibles]

Metagamers are why we can't have nice things

Hypothetical metagamers. Had there actually been a case of this happening?

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Yes, I've seen people do it, asking a DM if they could see through the window in the door of a quarter to see things inside. If people can see into a quarter they will try to do these things.

[Eyeliner]

Hypothetical metagamers. Had there actually been a case of this happening?

If someone knows something they shouldn't, especially a secret you're hiding, their behavior changes. Not easy to prove but it's easy to tell. Maybe they're unreasonably cagey about the character or go out of their way to expose them with something they can prove. Maybe they drop vague hints or post anonymous notes to expose them. I've seen that many times.

[AstralUniverse]

There are so many meta-game-able things in this server. Most secret/evil classes are quite ez pz to spot. We are all very much used to filtering a lot of stuff we see so we keep things immersive and honest. Most of us know these cities and dungeons by heart, where the bosses and where the chests are, but we give the spotlight to the group's guide/scout and are happy to play ignorant. I think the community in this server actually holds a respectful high standard in this regard. People who seek to win over good story are easy to spot. we all know how they play like in game and we frown at them. I speak as someone who constantly plays warlocks and other evil folk on the surface and I gotta give this community a lot of credit here. I havent been meta-gamed in the past few years and the hunger for interesting stories seems to overcome the need to win, for most players. Just really wanted to say that. I'm not against the change tho because it actually fits the Secret of Explorer thematically and also think about all the times you meta-gamed someone's name by an innocent mistake....

[Edgar Midgar]

I'm doing the loremaster class with this feat.
And I've done the ranger class.

THE SOLUTION COULD BE AND (FOR ME) MAKE THE CLASS MORE ENJOYABLE DO

make a mix between the "map reveal revisited (wilderness) also konw as 'wilderness map' "and the "secret knowledge of the explorer".

What it will be fine should be: 1) make the whole maps invisible
2) one time that you discovered an area let that area visible always (like the wilderness map of the ranger but opened for all areas)
3) add the other skills of the secret knowledge of the explore.

Doing so you will have a loremaster that doesn't start with all areas rivealed, but has to make exploration and the areas didn't seen will remain not seen. I think.