[PGCC] Dirgesinger Feedback

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Post feedback related to Dirgesinger in the PGCC tests here.

[Rico_scorpion]

Not sure if intended or not, but dirge of awakening does nothing before dirgesinger 5. Either it should (summon 1 undead, which would be the expected behaviour), or it should be added to the prerequesites that you need to be 5 dirgesinger to pick the fear, otherwise you get the weird/frustrating/misleading situation where you pick it at dirgesinger level 1 but is a dead feat for 5 levels.

My two cents!

PS: will probably give more feedbacks over time, but so far it seems like a fun class, can't wait to have it on live!

[msheeler]

Is this correct ?

The Dirgesinger plays a dissonant chord that calls for a harvest of souls. All hostile targets in the radius are struck by the reaper's touch, receiving 1d8 plus an additional 2d8 per Dirgesinger level as Magical damage. A portion of all damage dealt is returned back to all friendly targets as hitpoints (up to a maximum of 10 HP per Dirgesinger level). Additionally, All friendly targets gain 1 point of Vampiric Regen per 2 Dirgesinger levels and 1 + 1 per 5 Dirgesinger levels as bonus magic damage for the duration of the dirge.

This seems to say it does 21d8 magic damage (no resistance damage type) to all hostile creatures and heals 100hp to all party members.

PLUS gives 5 regen to each party member
PLUS 3 magic damage per round for the duration of the song?

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Not sure if intended or not, but dirge of awakening does nothing before dirgesinger 5. Either it should (summon 1 undead, which would be the expected behaviour), or it should be added to the prerequesites that you need to be 5 dirgesinger to pick the fear, otherwise you get the weird/frustrating/misleading situation where you pick it at dirgesinger level 1 but is a dead feat for 5 levels.
My two cents!

PS: will probably give more feedbacks over time, but so far it seems like a fun class, can't wait to have it on live!

bug for sure. I'll add it to my list

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'll do some pgcc testing later, but i do have two initial thoughts.

1) I don't see a theme for good aligned dirge singers, unless they do the undead thing too.

2) loosing 10 levels of bard song is too much. As much as I would love for a stronger curse song to be an option for that big of a trade off, its too easily countered to be what a class is all about as it stands now. Compare that to something like 5 levels of loremaster, where i get a more versatile array of goodies and a stronger bard song then I do with the class that synergizes specifically with bard, and at first glance it looks like the superior choice. You got a lot of good stuff in here, but I would at the very least up the bard song to one every other dirge singer level, if not closer to 7 out of 10 to make it more in line with a 27/3 bard split.

Another path will be to make said counter a little harder, maybe up it a level in its spell line. And yeah, I'm being a bit coy here, but i play a bard. I'm not giving away my weaknesses for free If you some how have no idea what I am talking about Sorrow (I'm sure you do) pm and I will be more open.

[AstralUniverse]

We need more synergies. However the only one that comes to mind is having Warlock also qualify via Eldritch Euphony (and that feat would also need to be changed so it doesnt require Bard Song to pick anymore). This would at least enable 20 warlock 10 dirgesinger without having to have also bard levels and it would only have curse song and no bard song at all, which is an interesting trade-off. And we need to think about more synergies to enable. Currently as things stand, there absolutely no mechanical reason to do anything except 4 bard 10 ds 16 pm with edr 3 because it's THAT much better than anything else you can do with that class, and 20 bard 10 ds is okay, but it's just yet another caster bard build that does about the same as the 30 bard.

[Shadowy Reality]

I am confused, why is Bard 20/Dirge 10 straight up worse than Bard 30?

Is it because Curse Song at 30 bard can also deal close to 50 sonic damage?

[In Sorrow We Trust]

1) I don't see a theme for good aligned dirge singers, unless they do the undead thing too.

• Halt Undead on Bard Song uses
• Momento Mori damage vs. Undead
• Death Ward on Bard Song with ME3.
• Some of the Dirge Songs are alignment-agnostic like Reprisal, Woe, and Damnation. I'd even say you could make a case for Harvest if you spun it a certain way.
• It's up to you to flavor your roleplay. Options were not juxtaposed in because it should be up to the players and writers to decide how they utilize the abilities.

2) loosing 10 levels of bard song is too much. As much as I would love for a stronger curse song to be an option for that big of a trade off, its too easily countered to be what a class is all about as it stands now. Compare that to something like 5 levels of loremaster, where i get a more versatile array of goodies and a stronger bard song then I do with the class that synergizes specifically with bard, and at first glance it looks like the superior choice. You got a lot of good stuff in here, but I would at the very least up the bard song to one every other dirge singer level, if not closer to 7 out of 10 to make it more in line with a 27/3 bard split.

It was initially 1/2 Bard Song scaling but it was deemed to be Bard-Plus (and thusly way too strong) without greater penalties. You are trading the primary support medium (the Bard Song) for Dirge Songs and offensive capability.

We need more synergies. However the only one that comes to mind is having Warlock also qualify via Eldritch Euphony (and that feat would also need to be changed so it doesnt require Bard Song to pick anymore). This would at least enable 20 warlock 10 dirgesinger without having to have also bard levels and it would only have curse song and no bard song at all, which is an interesting trade-off. And we need to think about more synergies to enable. Currently as things stand, there absolutely no mechanical reason to do anything except 4 bard 10 ds 16 pm with edr 3 because it's THAT much better than anything else you can do with that class, and 20 bard 10 ds is okay, but it's just yet another caster bard build that does about the same as the 30 bard.

20 warlock / 10 dirgesinger is being considered. If you have ideas for synergies, I'm open to observing them.

[AstralUniverse]

I am confused, why is Bard 20/Dirge 10 straight up worse than Bard 30?

Is it because Curse Song at 30 bard can also deal close to 50 sonic damage?

I'd say it's worse if we assume the wiki is correct and that Song of the heart requires 21+ Bard level.

Another thing that require some clarification...

Some stuff require song level, some stuff require bard level, some stuff requires actually class level. This area is quite unclear in some cases. For example, Song of the Heart requires 21+ *bard level* specifically, but I'm getting reports from folks saying dirge singer levels stack in there, so 20 bard 10 ds does in fact qualify Song of the Heart. It's a pretty big deal and it goes against what the wiki implies.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

I am confused, why is Bard 20/Dirge 10 straight up worse than Bard 30?

Is it because Curse Song at 30 bard can also deal close to 50 sonic damage?

I'd say it's worse if we assume the wiki is correct and that Song of the heart requires 21+ Bard level.

Another thing that require some clarification...

Some stuff require song level, some stuff require bard level, some stuff requires actually class level. This area is quite unclear in some cases. For example, Song of the Heart requires 21+ *bard level* specifically, but I'm getting reports from folks saying dirge singer levels stack in there, so 20 bard 10 ds does in fact qualify Song of the Heart. It's a pretty big deal and it goes against what the wiki implies.

It requires 21+ Bard levels.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm glad to hear 20/10 cant grab SotH because it would mean builds with SotH who also have tier 6 undead from scrolls, which would be op as hell. I think pure bard still has it's rightful place as best bard but for concepts who want epic summoning, 14 bard 16 pm was already pretty decent before we introduce ds and slap in lasting inspiration on top of 16 pm. I just always loop back to 16 pm for solo epic summoner concept and I always loop back to 30 pure bard for most optimal support class. Will return if/when I come up with more synergies ideas.

[Heroic Spirit]

I am confused, why is Bard 20/Dirge 10 straight up worse than Bard 30?

Is it because Curse Song at 30 bard can also deal close to 50 sonic damage?

Where Bard excels at party support, Dirge is supposed to be the offense-based variant, hence the lack of song scaling.

That said, to be an offensive class, the damage ticks from Momento Mori seems a tad lackluster.

This is at 10 dirge with a 10 CHA mod:


A total of 58 damage, though it's spread across 3 rounds, makes mitigation pretty easy; take a moment to drink a cure light wounds. Though, maybe there's something I'm overlooking

[Heroic Spirit]

20 warlock / 10 dirgesinger is being considered. If you have ideas for synergies, I'm open to observing them.

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=30322

This.

Instead of adding a new summon tier, maybe allow the BG to have some kind of scaling with dirge if they take an 'Epic Undead Servant' feat.

The feat would serve to add an APR (i think the current summon has 2 attacks)
Allow BG to scale up either the song or the curses.

or something along those lines

[Quidix]

I think it has a lot of flavour - well done.

On potential synergies, could also consider:
- Hexblade (maybe it counts partially towards curses / hexes?)
- Knight (evil / 'death' knights)

I'd be wary of giving any bard song progression to dirgesinger, it makes them very strong. I'm not sure why 20bard/10dirgesinger is getting dismissed. It gets full bard song to its mummy dust minions (and itself if its a vampire, and any friendly vampire PCs), full curse song and a lot of goodies from dirgesinger.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

That said, to be an offensive class, the damage ticks from Momento Mori seems a tad lackluster.

This is at 10 dirge with a 10 CHA mod:


A total of 58 damage, though it's spread across 3 rounds, makes mitigation pretty easy; take a moment to drink a cure light wounds. Though, maybe there's something I'm overlooking

You can frontload dirges on top of that to deal additional damage. If you do that, you'll notice your damage is a lot higher than it appears. Remember that you also get additional damage dice the higher your charisma is.

[fulminea]

On potential synergies, could also consider:
- Hexblade (maybe it counts partially towards curses / hexes?)
- Knight (evil / 'death' knights)

Those are both great ideas.

[Waldo52]

This is not PGCC feedback, but I've read up on the class

Bard synergies are inevitable, but I think that the bardic performance requirement is a bummer.

There are a lot of non bard players who would love a chance to play this kind of mean spirited debuffer without the flavor baggage that comes with being a song and dance man. Forgive me if this sounds nitpicky.

Curse song is objectively cool and is much more open to interpretation, if memory serves you don't hear the little ditty and see musical notes hovering over your character. This class would be too flavorful for a brooding rogue or edgy barbarian.

[Xerah]

This is not PGCC feedback, but I've read up on the class

Bard synergies are inevitable, but I think that the bardic performance requirement is a bummer.

There are a lot of non bard players who would love a chance to play this kind of mean spirited debuffer without the flavor baggage that comes with being a song and dance man. Forgive me if this sounds nitpicky.

Curse song is objectively cool and is much more open to interpretation, if memory serves you don't hear the little ditty and see musical notes hovering over your character. This class would be too flavorful for a brooding rogue or edgy barbarian.

You're really narrowly looking at what a bard is if you think it's just song and dance.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Everything about bard is song based. Every buff has a song in its name. They're called songs even. It is a song class. You can't argue it's not. That's like saying a wizard doesn't cast spells.

[xanrael]

A VFX/sound choice for bardic song could be kind of neat if it helps people imagine what a character is doing better. I don't know if that's a small amount of work or something greater.

As far as specific feedback, Nocturne Crescendo would be nice if it just worked "at night" for the benefit of dirgesingers in the UD.

If assassin is to stay behind an app, I think making it also work with Rogue for a subset of abilities would be nice though when stuff unlocked might change a bit for that for balancing reasons.

[Waldo52]

Everything about bard is song based. Every buff has a song in its name. They're called songs even. It is a song class. You can't argue it's not. That's like saying a wizard doesn't cast spells.

Exactly.

I've gotten into this with old D&D forums as well. There were always people explaining that "performance" could be explained as dancing around in an inspiring way or comedy at the opponent's expense (and this improves on song and dance flavor HOW?).

In a video game the musical flavor is even more inescapable, what with your character actually singing a little ditty and walking around with notes above his head. This is a class centered around musical flavor that is baked into the mechanics, spell names, etc.

No, I'm not trying to derail this specific PrC feedback thread with talk of abolishing or altering/pathing the class, although that would be nice. The relevant criticism here is that the class isn't at all open to non-bards, which I disagree with.

[Xerah]

My first character was, in fact, a wizard who didn't cast spells and re-flavoured them. There are plenty of ways to play bards that don't involve songs. It's fine if you don't want to play it that way, but you can. It's up to your roleplay to define what's happening with your song. Maybe it's too much work for you to do and maybe you get bothered by that person you see once assuming you're singing a song

That said, following the logic of complaining that it is a "bard song", the class has "singer" in the name, so why you're asking for it to not be song based is also strange. So much work has been put into this to be functioning around bards that asking for an entire rework of mechanics is asking way too much.

In the end, flavour is free. It's up to the player to find the flavour that fits with them.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

It is a prestige class which function as a means of specialization. I'd like to make it accessible to a variety of options but it was not intended to be used without at least a few bard levels. This is because the feats are hardcoded and you need Bard Song charges to use the Dirgesinger abilities. There is no way to detach it from bard song without going around the hardcoded systems.

[ZombieDuck]

I think the 4 Bard/10 Dirgesinger/16 Palemaster is a very interesting build able to reach:
- 70 AC
- 3xMummy Dust(With one of them on CD) + Dracolich
- Hellball and Greater Ruin(With dmg blowback)
- Lasting Inspiration with ESF: Perform for situational immunities + immunity to death Magic from Dirge
- Dirge of Harvet being able to do decent magic dmg and heal the whole party
- Dirge of Damnation mostly for the breach and small dmg but chance for stun too
And if you want to switch something out for:
- Dirge of Reprisal for situational spell block and to make summons deal more dmg by just being hit

This does give the Dirgesinger a unique place in parties, being able to do some unique things like the mentioned Bard song immunities, which can be huge boon for a party.

Ofcourse that's just the mechanics, I think the RP aspects of Dirge + PM can be quite fitting and interesting.

I'd be interested in seeing someone make Dirgesinger on a paladin build to really focus on the undead hunting theme.

[Rico_scorpion]

I was wondering if we could come up with two level 10 ds bonus feat that would go in two very different directions OR add a 21 charisma feat specialized in undead hunting/good aligned theme, and when you take that one, it turns off awakening and vise verca.

I feel awakening is key to the undead themed ds, but the "good ds" theme is vastly underpowered in comparison / lacking an iconic feat.

Unless i missed something of course.