New Damage Types: Feedback

[Nekonecro]

- Bleeding Damage:
> Crit-immune Creatures & Placeables are immune.
> 5/- essences & dweomercraft options are NOT available.

- Sources of Bleeding Damage:
> Assassin: Assassinate ability
> Invisible Blade: Bleeding Wound & Eviscerate
> Poisons: Widow's Kiss

I have a small concern with changing assasinate from magic to bleed damage.
Often the skill is a nice boon to use against undead mobs and palemaster/vampire players.
Something to make up for death attack not working on them and still output some decent damage and be a threat.
Would it be possible to move it to a different type that's not resisted by those who are crit immune?

[Hazard]

This change makes a lot more sense than how it used to be. I think they should be immune.

[AstralUniverse]

Why are crit immune creatures immune to bleeding? This might be a dumb question.... or is it...

[RedGiant]

I don't personally see how/why assassin death attack, which requires the same met-conditions as sneak attack, should be an unusually effective technique against undeath. In fact, as Hazard notes, this seems to argue for the opposite treatment.

There are tons of tools to fight undead in the module, from very effective scrolls, to +6 weapons, to several more weapons which have ridiculous damage bonuses vs. type. Surprise stabbing is just not one of these.

[Curve]

Death Attack should not and does not work against crit immune creatures and pcs. Assassinate is a completely different ability. Assassinate is the bread and butter of the whole class Assassin.

[Eyeliner]

Yeah -assassinate is not death attack. This seems like making fighter's epic weapon specialization or swashbuckler's insightful strike damage suddenly conditional of not being crit immune.

[Nekonecro]

For the sake of being clearer for those unaware.

Assassinate.

This ability marks a target for 30 minutes that will receive additional damage from the attacks of the assassin. The ability has 2 minutes of CD when used against NPCs, and 10 minutes when used against PCs. The damage is Magic and equals to Assassin Level + Int Modifier. The Int Modifier is capped to half the assassin level. The damage is not multiplied by critical hits. This ability is accessed through the radial menu, (or sent to a player in a tell using the command -assassinate). In the radial menu, it will appear under Special Abilities > Assassin > Assassinate. This can be quickslotted. This ability currently only works with melee weapons, not ranged. Unarmed characters need to be wearing gloves for it to work.

[RedGiant]

I should have been clearer.

Fully understand assassinate ability. I've played one. In its original form, it did work, but did not interact with critical hits as you've pointed out.

Granted I've always associated this ability in my RP as having a more studied death attack. This is not necessarily coupled as demonstrated by the comments here, and I should not have projected my RP take on it.

Would I love to keep an unresistable, large source of a magical damage per hit? Sure, count me in.

Alternately, do I think it was probably changed for a reason? Yes, yes I do.

I'm mostly weighing in to say, I don't think the new direction of this ability is thematically inappropriate, given that a studied killer probably does not make their living killing things that are already dead.

[xanrael]

I'm mostly weighing in to say, I don't think the new direction of this ability is thematically inappropriate, given that a studied killer probably does not make their living killing things that are already dead.

Palemasters, vampires, druids in elemental form, etc are all potential PC assassination targets. They're already immune to a large chunk of special damage (Sneak/Death Attack, Crits). Personally I don't think they need to be immune to even more.

[Hazard]

I'm mostly weighing in to say, I don't think the new direction of this ability is thematically inappropriate, given that a studied killer probably does not make their living killing things that are already dead.

Palemasters, vampires, druids in elemental form, etc are all potential PC assassination targets. They're already immune to a large chunk of special damage (Sneak/Death Attack, Crits). Personally I don't think they need to be immune to even more.

I thought palemasters were only partially immune/only had resistance now. So many changes that I really can't remember them all. Maybe I'm wrong.

Vampires have massive, glaring PvP weaknesses. You really don't need a magic sneak attack on top of them to take them out. Every build is able to use at least one of the methods of effortlessly defeating any vampire in a 1v1. Not to mention the fact you can just infinitely reset and try again via heal potions, and a vampire cannot. Losing against a vampire pretty much comes down to being a player skill issue, or you decided for RP reasons not to make use of every advantage (which I totally understand, I've let a lot of people win, and I'm sure others have let me win too, for cool factor).

Druids, yeah. They are tough to kill, but very easy to defang. A druid can't really hurt you, if you don't want it to, but it will probably escape assassination. Their monolithic forms also have elemental vulnerability that you can take advantage of. Rogue grenades should hurt them in that form, too, which I assume a lot of assassins have access to?

I don't think this change will stop these types of characters from being assassinated.
It's 2022. These are not the powerhouses they used to be.

Should be more worried about how are you going to assassinate that bard.

[Tabby]

Assainate ability seems logic to be immune to crit?

Sneak attack and assasinate, is a element of surprise extra damage, and since undeads, arent exactly a creature that will 'be surprised' nor will be shocked, have feelings.. i see its kinda logical?
And it is a kinda bleeding attack? Even more logical then..

As commented, perhaps use abit more cunning, depending on your 'targets'

Assassins can use grenades right?

Besides... rogues always had that disadvantage against deaders.. and What is pointed out, why would an assassin go after undead.
If the target is a Palemaster / Vampire, seems more a Radiant Heart job, even?

Its okay to have weaknesses?

[xanrael]

Yeah updates can be difficult to keep on top of, though I love all the cool changes it brings.

As far a PM sneak attacks, I believe it was decoupled for around 2 days then recombined because it broke lots of other things. Maybe it was done again later in a different manner?

Generally deep assassin builds will not have the rogue levels to use the Arelith specific rogue grenades or benefit as much from the DC/damage increase of stock ones. Builds that dip just enough assassin to use the system won't really care that much as it's not a significant portion of their damage.

Also my point wasn't "they can no longer be killed", rather the method of hitting them with weapons until their HP reached zero got significantly more difficult for deep assassin builds. If that was an intentional balance thing, cool. If that wasn't then it might need to be considered further.

[Tabby]

Perhaps Assassins just need some new tools depending on their target?
Say, you can temporarily coat/magical enchance your blade with.. Fire, to take care of that Waterform the Druid is in?
Coat you blade with poisoned blood?
Palemasters... *shrugs* maybe someone has an idea?

[Hazard]

Perhaps Assassins just need some new tools depending on their target?
Say, you can temporarily coat/magical enchance your blade with.. Fire, to take care of that Waterform the Druid is in?
Coat you blade with poisoned blood?
Palemasters... *shrugs* maybe someone has an idea?

Garlic coating for vampires.

[Tabby]

Perhaps Assassins just need some new tools depending on their target?
Say, you can temporarily coat/magical enchance your blade with.. Fire, to take care of that Waterform the Druid is in?
Coat you blade with poisoned blood?
Palemasters... *shrugs* maybe someone has an idea?

Garlic coating for vampires.

Hah! Yes perfect idea!!

[Curve]

You can rp assassinate as coating your blade with garlic if that suits your fancy. I’m not concerned with the lore. Lore can be manipulated to suit either side. What I am concerned with is if this is an intended or unintended side effect of changing assassinate from magical to bleeding. If it’s intentional then so be it, if it is unintentional then it could warrant some more thought.

[Guerra]

The nearest ability to -assassiate is Swashbuckler’s insightful strike which still affects everything (I think there would be a riot if you made that suddenly not work against crit immune stuff). It’s intelligence based damage. I would say being intelligence based it’s about studying their mark and sussing out a strategy to defeat this thing, whatever it is. It’s not automatically about fighting dirty and going for vital organs like sneak attack and shouldn’t be considered the same thing or always “bleed damage.” Maybe it's using the environment instead or gaining some other advantage the game isn't capable of representing. It was never an overpowered ability (nobody considers assassins top tier) and worked just fine for years.

We can all write paragraphs about what we think “feels right” and we can all be right and wrong at the same time because it’s a fantasy world and nothing is true or false. However in terms of game mechanics and playability the assassin was just made significantly weaker vs a very common enemy in PVE and an uncommon but still present one in PVP. A dex-based assassin really doesn't have any good ways now to fight a high HP crit immune creature or PC other than to whittle them down a few HP at a time.

[Edens_Fall]

Perhaps Assassins just need some new tools depending on their target?
Say, you can temporarily coat/magical enchance your blade with.. Fire, to take care of that Waterform the Druid is in?
Coat you blade with poisoned blood?
Palemasters... *shrugs* maybe someone has an idea?

Garlic coating for vampires.

Hah! Yes perfect idea!!

ROFL Gods no!

As mentioned before Vampires are crazy easy for anyone to kill IG with a few choice items or scrolls. Worse comes to worse just whittle them down in HP while sipping heal potions. Laughing all the while as they can't heal themselves.

Not to sure about PM these days, but as they have replaced thier body parts like a child playing with Legos, I can see them be resistant to bleed attacks. Though it would be funny to stab one and see it spray sawdust in Anime fashion.

[Ork]

Garlic coating for vampires.

Hah! Yes perfect idea!!

ROFL Gods no!

As mentioned before Vampires are crazy easy for anyone to kill IG with a few choice items or scrolls. Worse comes to worse just whittle them down in HP while sipping heal potions. Laughing all the while as they can't heal themselves.

Not to sure about PM these days, but as they have replaced thier body parts like a child playing with Legos, I can see them be resistant to bleed attacks. Though it would be funny to stab one and see it spray sawdust in Anime fashion.

Yeah, no. There are plenty of vampire builds that can outlast any amount of damage (cough, cough ranger cough).

[Edens_Fall]

Hah! Yes perfect idea!!

ROFL Gods no!

As mentioned before Vampires are crazy easy for anyone to kill IG with a few choice items or scrolls. Worse comes to worse just whittle them down in HP while sipping heal potions. Laughing all the while as they can't heal themselves.

Not to sure about PM these days, but as they have replaced thier body parts like a child playing with Legos, I can see them be resistant to bleed attacks. Though it would be funny to stab one and see it spray sawdust in Anime fashion.

Yeah, no. There are plenty of vampire builds that can outlast any amount of damage (cough, cough ranger cough).

*rubs chin* I would love to see this build if you have it for uhm- study . . . Yeah thats it.

Can you share it with me via Forums or DM?

[Curve]

My vampire was a 21Ranger/5WM/4Ftr and was disgustingly overpowered. So much so that I deleted because it felt like cheating.

[Shadowy Reality]

Heal and Mass Heal on Arelith have a cap. They are quite effective if cast by a Cleric, or Druid. But if cast from a scroll they aren't that potent. A vampire will kill you before you can kill it with heal/mass heal scrolls.

[Skibbles]

Perhaps, instead of the vampire debate, assassinate's damage type might be better served as a different new damage such as entropy - or just going back to magical.

I had no idea it was that potent though.

In the meantime I encourage assassins to use bless weapon for a guaranteed 5 divine damage on their hits (it does 10, but I'm counting a defense essence here.) The wiki is very incorrect on the details vs pc undead last I checked.

[-XXX-]

Are there even enough vampire PCs around to worry about?
It more and more seems to me like pure PGCC theorycrafting whenever they get brought up.

Also, vampire rangers sound like a flavor fail. Would the DMs even approve such concept?

[Hazard]

A vampire ... Ranger?
That doesn't sound like something that should be allowed as a concept, at all.
Vampires aren't just a 5% but they require an application as well.

How does someone justify an undead servant of nature?