Dirgesinger Feedback

[RedGiant]

Original Danse Macabre:
Friendly undead gain 15% Movement Speed, as well as increased Turning resistance while affected by his Bard Song. Hostile Undead who are in the radius become Entranced and are unable to act for 1 round per 2 Dirgesinger levels. Hostile undead creatures with at least 14 Intelligence are unaffected
<changed to>
- Danse Macabre has been changed:
- PC undead with less than 14 Intelligence now only become Entranced on a failed Will Save.
- Non-PCS with less than 14 intelligence are entranced no matter what.
- DC is 5 + Dirgesinger Level + Perform/5 as with dirges.

Original Macabre Eugology
Per each tier of Macabre Eulogy, their Bard Song grants an additional +1 bonus to AC and AB vs. Undead and a +1 bonus to saves vs. Fear and Death. If the Dirgesinger has Macabre Eulogy III, their Bard Song also grants the Death Ward effect
<changed to>
- Macabre Eulogy III has been changed:
- Instead of applying Death Ward on Bard Song, it is now an activatable ability that applies Death Ward to all friendly targets in a large radius.
- The duration starts at 10 minutes. Lingering song adds 5 minutes, and Lasting Inspiration doubles it afterwards.
- Has a 10 minute cooldown.
- The Death Ward effect can be dispelled as normal.
- Upon casting, it also banishes undead in the radius.
- Summoned enemy undead are instantly slain.
- Non-summoned enemy undead must roll a Fortitude save to be affected.
- DC is 5 + Dirgesinger Level + Perform/5 as with dirges.
- The area is also warded from further Undead summoning for 60 seconds.

Am I reading this wrong or are we talking about completely invalidating undead summoners as class feature? Undead summoners were in a tight spot before, but yeooow!

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Original Danse Macabre:
Friendly undead gain 15% Movement Speed, as well as increased Turning resistance while affected by his Bard Song. Hostile Undead who are in the radius become Entranced and are unable to act for 1 round per 2 Dirgesinger levels. Hostile undead creatures with at least 14 Intelligence are unaffected
<changed to>
- Danse Macabre has been changed:
- PC undead with less than 14 Intelligence now only become Entranced on a failed Will Save.
- Non-PCS with less than 14 intelligence are entranced no matter what.
- DC is 5 + Dirgesinger Level + Perform/5 as with dirges.

Original Macabre Eugology
Per each tier of Macabre Eulogy, their Bard Song grants an additional +1 bonus to AC and AB vs. Undead and a +1 bonus to saves vs. Fear and Death. If the Dirgesinger has Macabre Eulogy III, their Bard Song also grants the Death Ward effect
<changed to>
- Macabre Eulogy III has been changed:
- Instead of applying Death Ward on Bard Song, it is now an activatable ability that applies Death Ward to all friendly targets in a large radius.
- The duration starts at 10 minutes. Lingering song adds 5 minutes, and Lasting Inspiration doubles it afterwards.
- Has a 10 minute cooldown.
- The Death Ward effect can be dispelled as normal.
- Upon casting, it also banishes undead in the radius.
- Summoned enemy undead are instantly slain.
- Non-summoned enemy undead must roll a Fortitude save to be affected.
- DC is 5 + Dirgesinger Level + Perform/5 as with dirges.
- The area is also warded from further Undead summoning for 60 seconds.

Am I reading this wrong or are we talking about completely invalidating undead summoners as class feature? Undead summoners were in a tight spot before, but yeooow!

1. Halt Undead does the same as Danse Macabre.
2. A WoF will dismiss undead in the exact same way. 60 seconds out of a 10 minute cooldown is not enough to invalidate undead summoners.

[RedGiant]

1. Halt Undead does the same as Danse Macabre.
2. A WoF will dismiss undead in the exact same way. 60 seconds out of a 10 minute cooldown is not enough to invalidate undead summoners.

I'm more concerned with #2. The counter-play to WoF has always been, summon more undead, and vice versa. Not seeing the counterplay here with the 60 second lock-out? Most PvP encounters are resolved in well less than a minute, so the fact that they cannot do it again for 10 minutes will rarely come up.

Moreover, stripping undead summoners of their summons causes them in most cases to revert to their DC-based death spells, which the Dirgesinger is now effectively also warded against.

Group Death Ward + Insta-Win vs. Undead Summons is too good on one button.

[Drowboy]

I mean, banishment and dismissal have had lockouts the whole time?

[RedGiant]

I mean, banishment and dismissal have had lockouts the whole time?

They have saves. They can be counter-spelled. They also don't deathward you and your entire party at the same time.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Death Ward wands.

[RedGiant]

First of all, mad respect Sorrow.

Second, bring back Tokachino.

Third,

Its not that you couldn't somehow layer these effects, its that you get them aaaall with a button push. This is what makes it OP.

Mass Death Ward - incredibly powerful in its own right, and a wand would require a significant number of rounds to ward you, your summons, and your party members. Counterplay achieved through breaching dispelling.

Instant Undead Summons Destruction - Again, incredibly powerful, normally achievable with a Word of Faith spell or scroll, counterplay achieved through repetition.


60 Second Undead Summons Lock - Also incredibly powerful, normally achievable with banishment spell or scroll, counter play achieved through saves, spell resistance, and/or counterspell

I would recommend a pick two scenario here, because all three are abit much.

I really think any one of the flowing would bring it back into the realm of the reasonable.

Drop mass death ward.
-or-
Add saves to Undead Destruction.
-or-
Drop summons lock.

The way it is now, from an action economy standpoint, just gives too much and puts the opposing party hopelessly behind.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

First of all, mad respect Sorrow.

Second, bring back Tokachino.

maybe. we'll see.

Third,

Its not that you couldn't somehow layer these effects, its that you get them aaaall with a button push. This is what makes it OP.

Mass Death Ward - incredibly powerful in its own right, and a wand would require a significant number of rounds to ward you, your summons, and your party members. Counterplay achieved through breaching.

Instant Undead Summons Destruction - Again, incredibly powerful, normally achievable with a Word of Faith spell or scroll, counterplay achieved through repetition.


60 Second Undead Summons Lock - Also incredibly powerful, normally achievable with banishment spell or scroll, counter play achieved through saves, spell resistance, and/or counterspell

I would recommend a pick two scenario here, because all three are abit much.

I really think any one of the flowing would bring it back into the realm of the reasonable.

Drop mass death ward.
-or-
Add saves to Undead Destruction.
-or-
Drop summons lock.

The way it is now, from an action economy standpoint, just gives too much and puts the opposing party hopelessly behind.

The most appealing of those three is to add a save. The feature itself is very thematic and makes sense, and was even requested/suggested. I'll consider it.

[Scraps]

Mass Death Ward - incredibly powerful in its own right, and a wand would require a significant number of rounds to ward you, your summons, and your party members. Counterplay achieved through breaching.

Death Ward is not breachable.

It's also an hour per level spell, very simple to walk around with the protection at all times if you choose to.


Undeaths Eternal Foe is another example of a AoE deathward, that in addition gives poison immunity, disease immunitity, all the protections Negative Energy Protection, and the Deflection AC bonus of Shield, all while still being unbreachable and with no cooldown on its cast.

[RedGiant]

maybe. we'll see.

The most appealing of those three is to add a save. The feature itself is very thematic and makes sense, and was even requested/suggested. I'll consider it.

1) Yay!

2) Fair. Also Yay!

Death Ward is not breachable.

It's also an hour per level spell, very simple to walk around with the protection at all times if you choose to.


Undeaths Eternal Foe is another example of a AoE deathward, that in addition gives poison immunity, disease immunitity, all the protections Negative Energy Protection, and the Deflection AC bonus of Shield, all while still being unbreachable and with no cooldown on its cast.

Correct and corrected. I should have said "dispellable" per the original quote.

- The Death Ward effect can be dispelled as normal.

[Aren]

Does SR work against the dirge? Can I ward my vamps with SR against your song?
Because that was a viable pre-counter to WoF.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Does SR work against the dirge? Can I ward my vamps with SR against your song?
Because that was a viable pre-counter to WoF.

No, they behave like Curse Song.

[Aren]

Does SR work against the dirge? Can I ward my vamps with SR against your song?
Because that was a viable pre-counter to WoF.

No, they behave like Curse Song.

I'd have second Redgiants concern about the power of said dirge then.