Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

User avatar
Paint
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:01 pm

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by Paint » Tue May 10, 2022 4:29 pm

Throwing my two cents in here because I don't know when to shut up. It'd be neat for small races to have two-hand finesse options, but I struggle to see a particularly good or interesting niche mechanically for that, despite the discourse presented here.

I'm going to pick on Swashbuckler a little. I love the class and it's very fun. Strength swash, in my opinion, is the most fun way to play the class. It's just punchy, daring, and macho. That being said, it's... a little backwards to me that weapons need to be finessable for very specific strength builds to work. I don't think stapling finesse onto more weapons for characters so that strength builds that rely on finesse requirements can work better is good design -- especially not if it consequentially spawns trap options.

To elaborate on the above paragraph: In my contentious opinion, finessable weapons should first and foremost, be the most deadly and advantageous in the hands of someone who can use those weapons with finesse, so if they're not benefitting dex builds more than strength builds, why bother deliberately making them finesseable in the first place? Just make a cool strength weapon instead. The point being, unless I have forgotten about something very important -- which I sometimes do -- two-hand finesse weapons are kind of... in general... not great for dex builds. You don't get as much power out of them on the top end as you would two-handing a weapon with strength and, depending on your build, you end up sacrificing anywhere from 4-7 AC about it, which in both PVE and PVP can mean the difference between life and death. Especially when you're typically hitting for a lot less on a dex build than a strength build, meaning enemies are alive longer to hit you more. Even with e-dodge, this can sometimes be a real big deal.

I guess this critique extends to the nodachi a little? But it's a sick weapon and it's fun, so I'm willing to let it slide. This time.

Anyways, I guess my opinion is that small strength swashbucklers and strogues shouldn't get to have any fun, because I think it's dumb that two-hand finesse choices would benefit strength builds more than dex builds with current mechanics. I know -- I'm no fun at all.

Babylon System is the Vampire
Posts: 951
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:14 am

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue May 10, 2022 9:32 pm

Swash is the premier base melee class these days, followed by ranger then fighter. It was "balanced" this way. I don't blame the half pints for wanting in on the action. I haven't thought about the halfling bonuses compared to what a human swash can do -you can literally get almost as much pre-crit damage as any strength based two handed fighter on a dex based two hander swash, with way more ac, and far surpass the damage with a strength swash with similar ac- so I don't know what the answer is here nor do I really care at this point...balance is a mirage.

One thing I did want to add on too however, and I had to take it slow because of my own run ins with this issue and think about my wording, was the way feedback sometimes gets treated. Right or wrong, if you are serious about trying to make the NWN classes balanced (an impossible but admittedly noble goal) you should be eating every piece of feedback you can get, not putting up a wall of "Point and laugh at the guy who is questioning my know it all". That would be annoying if anyone did know it all, and I think its been proven a few times over that no one does.

The fact that these things always seem to happen on the OG toxic player bubble, the 3.0 or the 5.0 these days I guess, shouldn't be lost on anyone either. Individually I think 99% of the people there are actually awesome folks that can be great to talk to and play the game with, but collectively they are a mob of cyber bullies locked in their own hamster wheel of thoughts about how this game is played and balanced. I know a few people I really like and respect are going to take issue with that statement, but sometimes its hard to see the monster from within. I would never say they shouldn't exist, I'm too much of a free speech advocate for that, but I do think that if you are someone that has a suggestion or a balance thought you should bring it to the forums or the main discords development channel. You are far more likely to be heard out fully even if you are 100% wrong in one of those outlets.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by Ork » Tue May 10, 2022 11:36 pm

You bring up a good point, Paint. How useful is the finesse label anymore? The weapons that lack them (2hand) have alternatives that are still 2handed, and the abilities that require finesse (swash, rogue ab, assassin, etc) have optimal choices with the finesse category already (e.g. scimitar).

Might be a good opportunity to prune the code and make things a little simpler by dropping the finesse label.

Hinty
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:03 am

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by Hinty » Wed May 11, 2022 12:52 am

I have long argued that Dex should dictate your attack roll rather than Str for ALL weapons, but I recognise that this is a big change that would probably face a great deal of backlash.

I do not, however, see any reason you couldn't just make all weapons use your highest Str or Dex.

Let rogue/swash abilities apply to anything the same size categories as your char (that does not allow -twohand)

Let Invis Blade abilities apply to anything of a lower size category than your character.

Two handed swash has never made much real sense to me beyond perhaps quaterstaff and/or a long spear. Nor, frankly, does the idea of a strength build swash.

Zanithar
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:46 am

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by Zanithar » Wed May 11, 2022 4:29 am

So, I feel the need to point out that small races were once the ONLY races with access to this mechanism. I do not think of it as small races getting in on the fun, I think of it more as giving it back to them especially as it was given to Medium races in the interim. They literally defined the fun we are speaking about here. At some point in the process however it was removed from small races completely then given to medium races or vice versa.

Remember this was an unpublished change only a handful of people know why it was changed and they are not leaning in to offer any feedback on the subject. If this was a balance change, so be it ... but what did we gain for the lose and where was the balance gain? All I see is a shift of mechanical functionality from small races to medium races. Are small races so much better than medium races that then need to lose mechanical functionality to medium races?

So, yes, small races have a +1 AB/AC advantage, they have a number of disadvantages as well. I am not sure the presence of this mechanical advantage should ban them from other, completely unrelated mechanical advantage. Futhermore, if having a small race two hand a finessable weapon is balance breaking then I have to believe that two handing a scimitar or rapier as a full melee WM build should be an order of magnitude worse? And yet that is still a thing. So should all Str build options be removed small races to compensate?

I find it easy to respond with but small races get +1 AB/AC. That is about as useful as saying but humans get 1 extra feat and extra skillpoints or ... Drow get damn near everything. But how does that relate to this issue?

User avatar
Dreams
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:13 am

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by Dreams » Wed May 11, 2022 5:28 am

"I want to have another +1 AB by twohanding a katana on my halfling samurai, but I want it to be DEX based so I can have more AC too. It's unrelated to my +1 AB and +1 AC and +2 DEX though."

+1 AB/+1 AC is inherently the same as having Great DEX I & II on your DEX based build, which is what a human would have to do to get there (all other things equal).

Shadowy Reality
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 1237
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:56 am

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by Shadowy Reality » Wed May 11, 2022 7:58 am

It seems a bit hypocritical to have gone from a place where medium races had no access to this, and someone went out of their way to make it happen. To a point where small races seem to have lost this by mistake and now no one seems to want to give it back.

Why are we stifling build diversity for 1AB/AC. Small races are already better dex based than medium races for many other Dex builds, why can't they be better at this too? Humans and other races are better in other builds thanks to their race attributes, that is fine, usually it comes down to one ab/ac/damage as well.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by Ork » Wed May 11, 2022 8:56 am

Well, technically 2 ab/2 ac.

BobTheSkull
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:19 am

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by BobTheSkull » Wed May 11, 2022 2:05 pm

The change was a beamdog not an arelith one, and I think the simplest solution is to revert back weapon options to support build diversity. And only look at nerfing build diversity IF it presents a balance issue going forward.
Kalopsia wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 9:35 am
So, there is a 2da column that specifies the creature size required to finesse a weapon. Certain weapons are just too large or weighty for a small character to finesse them, and since they cannot use weapon finesse for attack rolls with these weapons, bonuses related to wielding a weapon with finesse shouldn't apply either.

If the lack of a two-handed finesse option for small races is a concern, we could re-evaluate some of the entries in that column. I could personally see katanas getting that treatment since they're very similar to nodachis for a small sized character.
This is a fair solution, my one concern is that Katana is exotic, when comparing small races (all of which have -2 str) and medium which have bonus feat or +2 str your str based two handers (the only two handers) the small races are already significantly inferior. I think returning the original list of all medium finess weapons to small races should be fine, with the caveat we keep an eye on them to make sure we do not have a horde of inferior stated str characters all of a sudden.

The ONLY build that might be implicated in an issue here is a swash/wm build as it is the only one possible of getting a high enough AB to take advantage of the rapier/scim larger crit range. Before the update, we never had an overrun of swash/WM hin running around, and post update the human version is strictly superior anyways even if you did revert the weapon types.

I know that several of the builds that used to be viable for small races with a scim are no longer viable with exotic due to feat gating.

BobTheSkull
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:19 am

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by BobTheSkull » Wed May 11, 2022 2:10 pm

Ork wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 5:15 pm
No access to tower shield isn't an issue as they're also +1 AC and there's a +4AC large shield out there. The goal of balance isn't to make everything equal. There's legitimate instances where small races exceed over other races. Halflings are the best race when considering a dex-based character.
This is all true, however the irony of the discussion is that we are arguing over two-handed finesse weapons because of custom arelith class changes (specifically rogue AB at 19/+1 and 24/+2 and swash weapon of choice, but then ONLY discussing this about strength based builds not Dex builds. There is never a time that a dex character wants to take a two handed weapon over a 1 handed due to the loss of APR or AC. (Meme Dex could net +1 AB from it but at a loss of 6 ac or 2 APR) and the 1.5x str bonus doesn't help a dex based class.

Since we are only discussing strength based characters the small race -2 str does always mandate a -2 a -1AB/DMG (netting to -1 damage due to size bonus). We also have the issue of custom weapons. Medium characters get to use 2 different +4 nodachi's where rapier/scim only have +3 options, so the small races would lose a further +1ab/dmg there (not to mention the bonus damage/keen/rune innate to the custom nodachi's).

Even with a revert allowing small races to use scim finesse again, they would still be -2 AB -3dmg and hard 5% keen or masterwork blade rune to get keen compared to the human nodachi wielder.

User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by Svrtr » Wed May 11, 2022 3:44 pm

BobTheSkull wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 2:10 pm
Ork wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 5:15 pm
No access to tower shield isn't an issue as they're also +1 AC and there's a +4AC large shield out there. The goal of balance isn't to make everything equal. There's legitimate instances where small races exceed over other races. Halflings are the best race when considering a dex-based character.
This is all true, however the irony of the discussion is that we are arguing over two-handed finesse weapons because of custom arelith class changes (specifically rogue AB at 19/+1 and 24/+2 and swash weapon of choice, but then ONLY discussing this about strength based builds not Dex builds. There is never a time that a dex character wants to take a two handed weapon over a 1 handed due to the loss of APR or AC. (Meme Dex could net +1 AB from it but at a loss of 6 ac or 2 APR) and the 1.5x str bonus doesn't help a dex based class.

Since we are only discussing strength based characters the small race -2 str does always mandate a -2 a -1AB/DMG (netting to -1 damage due to size bonus). We also have the issue of custom weapons. Medium characters get to use 2 different +4 nodachi's where rapier/scim only have +3 options, so the small races would lose a further +1ab/dmg there (not to mention the bonus damage/keen/rune innate to the custom nodachi's).

Even with a revert allowing small races to use scim finesse again, they would still be -2 AB -3dmg and hard 5% keen or masterwork blade rune to get keen compared to the human nodachi wielder.
This is not quite the same. Longswords are also a finesse weapon, but their stats are more in line with the nodachi. Nodachi is a 19-20 x2 weapon that requires monk levels or exotic proficiency. Longsword, if made a finesse weapon for small races, only requires martial proficiency and also has +4 variants and does not require a feat investment.

Likewise, the falchion requires feat investment and is not a finesse weapon and also had no unique +4 variant, but is 18-20 x2. Scimitar and rapier have the same crit range, were finesse weapons for the sake of small sized strength based 2h swash and rogues and also did not require feat investment.

Even if it was to come that finesse weapons for medium races are also so for small races, small races will again have the advantage by virtue of not requiring feat investment for the same payoff

Edit: Pressed submit too early. If it were made so that only katana is a finesse weapon for small races they can 2h, then the simple solution is just to make a +4 katana or two

Kalopsia
General Admin
General Admin
Posts: 1445
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:34 am
Location: Concourse Capaneus
Contact:

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by Kalopsia » Wed May 11, 2022 3:50 pm

BobTheSkull wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 2:05 pm
This is a fair solution, my one concern is that Katana is exotic, when comparing small races (all of which have -2 str) and medium which have bonus feat or +2 str your str based two handers (the only two handers) the small races are already significantly inferior. I think returning the original list of all medium finess weapons to small races should be fine, with the caveat we keep an eye on them to make sure we do not have a horde of inferior stated str characters all of a sudden.
I don't think this should be reverted. Getting finesse-related bonuses while wielding weapons without finesse isn't intuitive, and it's been one of my personal goals to make this game more streamlined where possible. The addition of katanas is the one change I'd support because it, too, makes things more consistent.

Maelwys
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 10:10 pm

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by Maelwys » Wed May 11, 2022 8:20 pm

Kalopsia wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 3:50 pm
BobTheSkull wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 2:05 pm
This is a fair solution, my one concern is that Katana is exotic, when comparing small races (all of which have -2 str) and medium which have bonus feat or +2 str your str based two handers (the only two handers) the small races are already significantly inferior. I think returning the original list of all medium finess weapons to small races should be fine, with the caveat we keep an eye on them to make sure we do not have a horde of inferior stated str characters all of a sudden.
I don't think this should be reverted. Getting finesse-related bonuses while wielding weapons without finesse isn't intuitive, and it's been one of my personal goals to make this game more streamlined where possible. The addition of katanas is the one change I'd support because it, too, makes things more consistent.
I would recommend watching SCA longsword fighters if you never have. Finesse is a big part of what they do though I understand there's a disconnect from accurate medieval weapon techniques and fantasy weapon fighting. I say this as separate from the balance concerns.

On the issue of Small Races and the Finessable Weapons, I always thought Wild Dwarves were a bit weird. Small race benefits without a strength penalty, making it the mechanically best for certain strength-based two handed builds (Swashbuckler/Rogue included) while the ones I encountered in-game were usually roleplayed as a regular dwarf.

malcolm_mountainslayer
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 5:08 am

Re: Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Thu May 19, 2022 5:39 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 8:56 am
Well, technically 2 ab/2 ac.
if we compare to a medium plus dex race (moonelf, drow, etc) its 1ab/1ac and 30 more hp vs 1.5 less damage, -1 disc, - 4 knockdown attempts and vs knockdown, poop disarm, and other racial abilities (drow). The latter also making much much better/easier divine dex divine builds with the power attack feat tax.

When foregoing a shield and not having things like benefits of divine shield, etc. the benefits of of 1 ac and ab is diminishing anyways. Like unless doing a monk dip you are still missing out on 6 ac and your 1 ac ab small size advantage won't win things if you are trying to out trade your opponent with a low strength score 2 handing a weapon.

I am open to hearing which builds the hin variant with 2 hand finesse powercreeps it's way into victory with it's small size bonuses, but I have yet to see the build and it seems to unnecessarily close something previously fun for people.

i am with Kalop though that perhaps it should be reserved for katana, as 2 hand finessing a rapier does seem silly/odd and the katana would be more in line with naginata and wouldnt benefit from less feat tax and better crit range than the medium variants.

Post Reply