Small Races and the Finessable Weapon Nerf

[Zanithar]

So,
I was called out by Kenji on 5.0 today with respect to some comments I made on the state of small races and Finessable weapons specifically with respect to it being nerfed whilst Medium races were simultaneously buffed and that this was not a good Balance design in my opinion. Unfortunately I left the conversation more confused than when I entered it but the one salient thing that stuck with me was:

Kenji: If that were a concern, there would’ve been a feedback thread with angry rant about it for pages
Yet there is none and I’m hearing it for the first time here from you

Which is fair enough, I prefer Discord discussions over forum ranting, mostly because I find the forums both to slow and also not overly representative of server population (although this could definitely be my bias/preference speaking here).

So, lets get to the pages of angry rants to see if this is a concern or not This is all as I understand it, I could be wrong I am not part of the team and very little outside of the broad change (nothing?) has been published by the team around this.

A while back a change was made to normalize a bunch of exception based systems around finessable weapons and class interactions. There were a number at the time including but perhaps not limited to: Rogue, Shadowdancer, Assassin, Harper (Ro), Zhent (Ro), Swashbuckler, Invisible Blade.

There was a system for Rogue Proficiency weapons, one for Swashbucklers and one for Invisible blades and one for Assassins. I suspect from a class balance and change perspective it was a PiTa and (from memory) the team made an effort to consolidate this into fewer systems (1 + hidden weapon check I think). Which, IMO, was an excellent decision.

This new system was, as I understand it:
Vanilla Finessable weapons rules now apply to almost all of the above classes stuff (both as a prereq for abilities and as a weapon limitation) with Hidden weapon rules (one size smaller than the user) being applied to some of the Assassin stuff and all of the Invisible blade stuff.

Around the same time, a couple of custom finessable large weapons were added/customized: Nodachi, Two-Bladed Sword and perhaps Naginata (this was unpublished). These weapons are excluded from the rule around any weapon being two handed is not finessable.

I believe this had some unintended consequences, I believe this because nothing was published about it.

A quick piece of useful background info:
Vanilla Finesse System: Only weapons flagged as finesse weapons can be finessed and no weapon used in two hands can be finessed. We will come back to the impact here and the Arelith customisation around it.

So, prior to this change:
1. Rogues (and Rogue multi-classed with many of the above classes) received Rogue Proficiency Bonuses on Finessable weapons even if such weapons were used Two handed.
2. Swashbucklers received Swashbuckler abilities on all Finessable weapons even if such weapons were used Two Handed.

Rogue and Swashbuckler Strength builds were built around this using small races and all was well, people started asking for this coolness on medium races.

We migrated systems and Medium races got to join the fun with medium race custom large two handed finessable weapons .... Yay ... everyone gets to have fun!

But wait ... after this change, a number of people (myself included) noticed that Finessable weapon outside of the Nodachi and Two-Bladed Sword and perhaps the Naginata (if it is finessable) could not be used two handed and gain benefit from all the class specific abilities ...

The Consequences:

There are now no weapons for Small Races that can be Two Handed and benefit from any of the Rogue / roguelike bonuses associated with finessable weapons. In tandem, there are now 2 or perhaps 3 weapon that medium races recently gained which can be Two Handed by medium races and benefit from all these systems.

I feel this is a bad balance decision but without it being published and the resulting discussion it is difficult to understand why this was done, if it was a mistake or deliberate and/or what benefits arose from it if it was deliberate or even if it has to stay this way for some reason.

TDLR Small races can no longer compete as Str TwoHander builds across the various roguish aligned classes whilst Medium races now have full availability to such mechanics with new weapons excluded from the new system rules. TDLR

Discuss ...

[BobTheSkull]

I am actually the guilty party that mentioned this, i was playing a 2 hand hin str before I went on a break. I came back and didn't restart playing him because I don't like necro'ing RP. I was looking at the changes and various builds and was very confused why small races lost the exact benefit that was given in the nodachi and nagatana weapons to medium races.

I would like to see the code reverted so small races can use the medium two hand again and still get the same benefit their big brothers do!

[Zanithar]

I am actually the guilty party that mentioned this, i was playing a 2 hand hin str before I went on a break. I came back and didn't restart playing him because I don't like necro'ing RP. I was looking at the changes and various builds and was very confused why small races lost the exact benefit that was given in the nodachi and nagatana weapons to medium races.

I would like to see the code reverted so small races can use the medium two hand again and still get the same benefit their big brothers do!

You prompted the Discord discussion that resulted in this post. The issue was fairly well known across the builder community since shortly after the change. It is not something that was discovered today. Meaning, you did not start this

[Skibbles]

I ran a search in the announcement section for the word 'finesse' and the latest posts are from 2021 of the feat being removed from Avariel.

Is it possible there's no feedback thread on it because it wasn't announced, and halfling 2-handers might just be rare enough for it to be a slow burning discovery?

Usually Kenji has some kind of developer commentary, or rationale, so I'd kind of be interested in seeing it. Otherwise I don't really have an opinion because I'm too dumb for the mathy stuff I assume this change might be based on.

[AstralUniverse]

It's hard to comment on this thread when the dev in question, Kenji, already sort of explained that it's all good and intentional.

I dont really play small races, and I'm confused why take away rogue prof bonuses when 2handing rapier, while granting the very same thing to medium races with other 2h weapons. Also naginata becoming a finesse weapon was never announced anywhere.

I guess my only feedback atm is that so much stuff went unannounced and I have no idea what's going on anymore (technically no should have any idea unless they play small races) and I didnt know both of these things mentioned here until now so it's virtually impossible for me to understand it's affects on the Balance currently.

[Kalopsia]

So, there is a 2da column that specifies the creature size required to finesse a weapon. Certain weapons are just too large or weighty for a small character to finesse them, and since they cannot use weapon finesse for attack rolls with these weapons, bonuses related to wielding a weapon with finesse shouldn't apply either.

If the lack of a two-handed finesse option for small races is a concern, we could re-evaluate some of the entries in that column. I could personally see katanas getting that treatment since they're very similar to nodachis for a small sized character.

[AstralUniverse]

I also like to use this opportunity to point out, after also reading the entire discussion about it on discord, that the feedback was not presented in the nicest way.. and even here.. stuff like this..

So, lets get to the pages of angry rants to see if this is a concern or not

is indeed salty and not necessary to express your feedback. It will only go to antagonize the dev you're trying to work with and present your ideas to.

[jomonog]

So, there is a 2da column that specifies the creature size required to finesse a weapon. Certain weapons are just too large or weighty for a small character to finesse them, and since they cannot use weapon finesse for attack rolls with these weapons, bonuses related to wielding a weapon with finesse shouldn't apply either.

If the lack of a two-handed finesse option for small races is a concern, we could re-evaluate some of the entries in that column. I could personally see katanas getting that treatment since they're very similar to nodachis for a small sized character.

This is a recent change though because it used to work. I think the issue probably is that it wasnt ever announced but my understanding is that is because it was a Beamdog change and not an Arelith one (correct me though if i am wrong).

As to solution, I agree it would be good maybe to have katana work for smols, that would be cool.

[Zanithar]

I also like to use this opportunity to point out, after also reading the entire discussion about it on discord, that the feedback was not presented in the nicest way.. and even here.. stuff like this..

So, lets get to the pages of angry rants to see if this is a concern or not

is indeed salty and not necessary to express your feedback. It will only go to antagonize the dev you're trying to work with and present your ideas to.

This has to work both ways. You get that the very thing you are quoting was the “feedback” offered to me by the developer in question …. I understand it is not the best feedback and I agree … I did not like it much when it was used to summarily dismiss my feedback.

[AstralUniverse]

I dont want to derail your thread into who said what. I just hope that from here, we can focus on the feedback itself and Balance(tm) rather than how we personally feel about it. Less emotion, more math. Try to present your feedback unbiased by it's effects on your personal game experience as much as you can and avoid the salt, then it'll meet more open ears. It's just in your best interest.


Anyway, I also agree that small races should also, like medium races, have weapon options that are 2handed but also proc rogue bonuses, like nodachi and naginata... apparently.

[Zanithar]

So, there is a 2da column that specifies the creature size required to finesse a weapon. Certain weapons are just too large or weighty for a small character to finesse them, and since they cannot use weapon finesse for attack rolls with these weapons, bonuses related to wielding a weapon with finesse shouldn't apply either.

If the lack of a two-handed finesse option for small races is a concern, we could re-evaluate some of the entries in that column. I could personally see katanas getting that treatment since they're very similar to nodachis for a small sized character.

Sounds good to me. Frankly I just wanted to know if it was working as designed and why. It seemed … odd and likely an unanticipated byproduct of simplifying the various systems. A couple of Two-handed finessable weapons returned to small Str builds would restore what was lost and sort it relative to what is available for medium races now ... IMO.

I appreciate the feedback.

[Security_Blanket]

If you have to hold a weapon with two hands, then you'll have a harder time moving with "finesse" over using a one-handed tiny weapon. Yea, maybe your weapon is tiny, but so are you, so go pump some iron if you want to lift that giant's toothpick.

[Bees in Space]

If you have to hold a weapon with two hands, then you'll have a harder time moving with "finesse" over using a one-handed tiny weapon. Yea, maybe your weapon is tiny, but so are you, so go pump some iron if you want to lift that giant's toothpick.

Nodachi is a thing that exists. It seems only fair to give small races an equivalent option.

[Ork]

Small races already receive a +1 from small stature and usually a +1 from dex bonus.

[toftdal]

Small races already receive a +1 from small stature and usually a +1 from dex bonus.

And pay for it with ~2 less damage (-2 str and smaller weapons) as well as lower disc, no access to towershield, minuses for KD check and disarm (smaller weapons), no?

[Ork]

No access to towershield isn't an issue as they're also +1 AC and there's a +4AC large shield out there. The goal of balance isn't to make everything equal. There's legitimate instances where small races exceed over other races. Halflings are the best race when considering a dex-based character.

[toftdal]

No access to towershield isn't an issue as they're also +1 AC and there's a +4AC large shield out there. The goal of balance isn't to make everything equal. There's legitimate instances where small races exceed over other races. Halflings are the best race when considering a dex-based character.

I think, the goal of balance is to have trade-offs, yes. But also, another goal is to have the -possibility- of having as wide an array of options as possible (Be they optimal or sub-optimal). Right now, you can be dex- or str-based medium-sized with a two-hander - you can only have a str-based for small which is being addressed here.

Shield: True, although there is no DI on that shield. On top of that, clerics have the ability to make both +5, rendering the towershield superior. (EDIT: Forgot about the +4 Aegis towershield, too)

[MRFTW]

Halflings are the best race

There, fixed it for you.

On a serious note, 2h dexer small races would be a +1 AB creep, right?

If we're tinkering with weapons, I'd like the small-sized spear to be finesseable by small races.

[Hinty]

Spear already should be a finesse weapon for small size chars since it is a small weapon and all small weapons are finesse weapons for everyone.

The idea of a two handed finesse weapon is not in anyway strange, in fact a weapon that can not be weilded swiftly and with agility is next to worthless, it leaves you vulnerable and tires you out quickly.


As for balance, making the Katana a two handed finesse weapon for small characters is NOT a good idea. when small characters have access to a wide variety of 2 handed weapons, ranging from 1d6 damage up to 1d10, making one with the highest damage the finesse option is a bad idea. I would be more inclined to go with the Longsword, or perhaps, in order to make the Exotic Weapon Prof balance, the Cavalry Sword/Axe/Hammer.

[Kalthariam]

Most of my small classes are casters or strength based (RIP), so I've not personally run into an issue with the finessable weapons, though I do have to agree I think it's really weird that somehow a medium creature is able to finesse a 2-handed weapon, and somehow that makes sense, but a small creature is somehow completely incapable of doing the same?

To me, that just doesn't make sense. If you are saying the small race just isn't strong enough to finesse the 2h weapon, why is suddenly the medium race excluded from that justification? They also would have to wield this larger weapon with two hands, and they would do it in the same way a small race would.

I personally feel there's more detriments to being a small race than benefits at this point.

A while back when some spells couldn't effect small classes (Like the black tentacle spell) it gave a niche advantage to small races that felt like it was a good trade off. Now it just seems like picking a small race just excludes you from a large swath of equipment and gearing options, for very minor trade offs. (Oh boy, +1 AB and +1 AC, pity I get massive debuffs against knock down, disarm, attempting to knock down others, attempting to disarm others, and a host of equipment is just never equippable for me)

That's just my feedback I suppose and my input on the topic.

[Zanithar]

Most of my small classes are casters or strength based (RIP), so I've not personally run into an issue with the finessable weapons, though I do have to agree I think it's really weird that somehow a medium creature is able to finesse a 2-handed weapon, and somehow that makes sense, but a small creature is somehow completely incapable of doing the same?

To me, that just doesn't make sense. If you are saying the small race just isn't strong enough to finesse the 2h weapon, why is suddenly the medium race excluded from that justification? They also would have to wield this larger weapon with two hands, and they would do it in the same way a small race would.

So, the weird bit is they had all this, small races used to two hand finessable weapons and gain rogue proficiency bonus and gain access to swashbuckler finesse gated abilities. They could do it with ANY finessable medium size weapon weapon including longsword, scimitar, rapier. Then medium races could do it and small races couldn’t anymore.

So they lost access to viable StrRoguish and StrSwash builds.

I am fine with medium races getting to do this, I am even fine with medium races getting to do it better they are better Str chassis. But was/is frustrating is completely closing the door on small races for this mechanism and do it with no notification.

What is more frustrating is defining it as balanced because nobody was complaining about it. That is not a good approach IMO hence the post.

[Kenji]

Still going at it I see

[DarkHollow]

Still going at it I see

That is a really presumptuous reply, regardless if the OP is right in his feedback or his tone unappealing. I'm not going to tell you how to do your job but it reflects poorly on you and the developer team when you treat genuine feedback this way.

[Skibbles]

I kind of hope we can make the forums a little less like backwash from discord. Just saying.

Anyway I am guessing that Orc is bringing up points similar to what Kenji may have?

Small races getting +1 AC/AB, and I think halflings still get +1 to all saves too, is like having two and a half free feats, in total, in the case of halflings. One and a half of which are """mandatory""" epic feats (namely half of armor skin and epic prowess).

It seems like this is something that must be directly contended with when making balance decisions. As near as I can tell, in practice, Knockdown/Disarm/Etc seem to be taking further and further backseats in a meta where Epic Skill Disc is ubiquitous across every build, whirlwind hit-and-run spam appearing to be better anyhow, so I don't think this is as important a tradeoff as 5% increments in two of the single most vital stats.

Swashbuckler, and rogue to a lesser degree, sort of invokes the image of a 1h specialist as it is, as I picture Pirates of the Carribean, Princess Bride, or even the Curse of Monkey Island, and their skillset implies a hand either free or very lightly encumbered with all the movement and acrobatic skills and implications of nearly supernatural precision.

In summary: I think, if we are to try and achieve parity between medium and small sizes in relation to 2h finesse weapons, it is better to kneecap the 2h rogue/swash concept from medium races than it is to raise small races to the silliness of a sneak attack 'nothing personal kid' nodachi character. Hot take, perhaps, but there it is.

[Dreams]

It’s already balanced in small creature’s favour. They’re inherently getting better results than medium creatures just by being small. Ork already outlined that small statue gives them +1 AB/AC.

They do get twohand bonuses on weapons. Their one downside is not being able to finesse twohand weapons, but that isn’t a big deal since they’re needing to go for STR with those weapons anyway due to being small.