Guld Start.

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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue May 17, 2022 10:38 pm

msheeler wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 8:54 pm
The next subject would be the main hall in Myon, which I do not currently have a copy of. I hope to get one in the coming week so that I might be able to see what can be done to encourage people to congregate closer together there, where people can actually see them.
Honestly, save for the fact that it's on the surface I find the elven hall to be great. Every time I have played an elf I can generally find people there. I'm sure it goes through dry spells, like any other settlement, but I don't see this as a priority. Lower Guldorand however? That needs some love.

Two things i would start with...

An exterior area that is enticing to gather around. It sort of has this near the sail board, but maybe putting a few of the temp shops littered on the way up the city down there so people using them are at least within ear shot of each other, and just stuff that makes it look like a cool place to hang out.

The lighthouse tavern needs better spacing. Its a great little bar, but every time we are in there hanging out I get annoyed by how the tables effect the pathfinding. It would also be cool if this were a non good only player owned tavern, but I know that decision is well above your paygrade :)

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue May 17, 2022 10:46 pm

msheeler wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 8:50 pm


This is more a "meet in the middle ground" type of thing, where stuff is congregated in the main square where people naturally tend to gather an extra back door is added from the indoor market that dumps into the main square, and the courtyard is sort of cleared out to make it less crowded as you enter the city.

I think the backdoor was more than enough. Mind you I don't get as annoyed as others having to sell in guldorand, but that was the one thing I was always shocked didn't exist.

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Dreams
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Dreams » Wed May 18, 2022 1:22 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 10:14 am
Dreams wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 4:39 am


If money is an issue, ask someone for a loan. Do some lower level writs for the pay and use that. Grind some low level stuff. I dunno, there are so many answers to this. You just got 14 free levels. You've saved so much time. It's really a non-issue. I'd still take this gift if you started off in debt.
I think the problem (if we can even call it a real problem) isn't so much that you can't do fine by just up and leaving guldorand, but rather that you really aren't saving that much time by taking the gift. Especially if you are taking the time to do the solutions you listed. It would also be nice if people who started in guldorand stayed in guldorand for a while, at least for the daily population of the city. But that only matters if people are regularly doing this in comparison to how often they take the base start. Which is likely not nearly enough to matter, because again, its not really worth the tier two reward. You slap minus 2 ecl on your character there instead and yeah, you are three days behind to start, but you will go much faster when it matters in the epics.

And I know some people are like "you shouldn't think that way!" and I say amen, but these conversations do deserve to be rooted in reality.
3 days is a huge amount of levelling time. Things I mentioned in my post take about 20 minutes. If someone knows what they’re doing + has friends, 2-14 takes anywhere from 6-10 hours.

It’s just not as hard, and not as big of a deal as people have made it out to be.

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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Spriggan Bride » Wed May 18, 2022 4:18 am

It usually takes me about 2 RL weeks to get to 14 but I don't have consistent play times or reliable out-of-game friends to help speed through writs. Maybe that's 15-20 IG hours of active leveling, who even knows, I also can't stand to do nothing but grind when I play. Point is we're all very different and what you can do or want to do is not going to be universal for everyone.

Honestly if you can get to level 14 effortlessly and don't mind the content then maybe the Guld reward isn't for you. Not trying to be mean just saying if you don't see the value that doesn't mean it won't be appreciated by someone else. I'm happy it is an option because after many years here I am very sick of repeating the low level writs and dungeons over and over but still want to play new characters. It's not even about saving time as much as keeping up my interest.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed May 18, 2022 4:18 pm

Spriggan Bride wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:18 am
if you can get to level 14 effortlessly and don't mind the content then maybe the Guld reward isn't for you.
Spriggan Bride wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:18 am
because after many years here I am very sick of repeating the low level writs and dungeons over and over
The thing is most people who fall within one of these statements, will also fall within the second one. So who is this award for, then?

I reiterate once more, there's absolutely no reason to take a guld start as a melee character who needs upgrades of gear every few levels in order to qualify for their level's content, but if you're a caster class with any scaling summoning spells selection, then guld start is a legitimate option for all playstyles and concepts. That's either a problem or not a problem. Depending on who you ask.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Zavandar
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Zavandar » Wed May 18, 2022 5:09 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:18 pm
Spriggan Bride wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:18 am
if you can get to level 14 effortlessly and don't mind the content then maybe the Guld reward isn't for you.
Spriggan Bride wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:18 am
because after many years here I am very sick of repeating the low level writs and dungeons over and over
The thing is most people who fall within one of these statements, will also fall within the second one. So who is this award for, then?

I reiterate once more, there's absolutely no reason to take a guld start as a melee character who needs upgrades of gear every few levels in order to qualify for their level's content, but if you're a caster class with any scaling summoning spells selection, then guld start is a legitimate option for all playstyles and concepts. That's either a problem or not a problem. Depending on who you ask.
I've done caster and melee guld starts and while the former is definitely easier, to say there is "no reason" for melee is hyperbolic. Solo, summonless melee has a tedious time leveling regardless, but mage armor, pfa, gmw, and some stat enchants (and you really don't need to prioritize capping your con at low levels) is sufficient. Prioritize getting a shield if you're not a build that uses parry.
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AstralUniverse
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed May 18, 2022 5:50 pm

Fair, I guess there might be a reason.. but I think it's not worth it for a mundane. that the advantage you're supposed to get starting at higher lvl and the time it's supposed to save you is significantly diminished for a melee to a point it's really not worth it and I dont recommend it.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu May 19, 2022 1:10 am

Spriggan Bride wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:18 am


Honestly if you can get to level 14 effortlessly and don't mind the content then maybe the Guld reward isn't for you. Not trying to be mean just saying if you don't see the value that doesn't mean it won't be appreciated by someone else.
I can see the value in it. I think having an alternative starting point like guld is excellent, and would love to one day play a character that hates Amn or something and never steps foot in Cordor because it considers it a puppet city of the great empire. But because the advice to do a guld start is to leave immediately instead of spending time in your would be new home, that value doesn't exist.

And truth be told, I think if you are that slow to level (which is totally fine, play at your pace) the guld start is even worse mechanically then it would be for a speedy leveler like myself. Perhaps people have never actually compared what level 25-30 is like when their ecl is +2 from the gifts versus what its like with a 0 ecl because you took the reward of -2, but its definitely a lot faster if you push yourself and allows you to do things like fight orcs in the desert well into the high 20s if you don't want to push yourself.

With the way writs are now, giving you first time xp for everyone you do no matter what your level is, this may not matter as much anymore. I have certainly said the -2 ecl isn't worth it for me personally anymore, and I probably won't use less than a greater reward until those gifts finally get their long promised revamp. But if i am saying -2 ecl is better then the guld start, and -2 ecl isn't good enough anymore, I'm sure you can understand why from a mechanical standpoint I think taking the guld start is an awful choice. And since there is no story benefit to it either, since I am just leaving the city anyways, it gets a giant "thwpt" from me all around.

Does any of that mean you shouldn't take it if it works for you? Of course not, its your game play it how you want. If I hated taking a few days to go through the low level stuff as you guys make it sound like you do I would be taking it every time myself. But try and understand that nothing I am saying revolves around removing it, I'm only making comparisons so the powers that be have a general idea on how to tweak it if they decide it needs to be tweaked. And if its made more appealing to the masses, ultimately that's better for you the guy who still likes it as it is, because that means there is a chance you will find more people in the same position as you when you start instead of just having to leave to go elsewhere.

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Re: Guld Start.

Post by RedGiant » Fri May 20, 2022 12:20 am

I appreciate the willingness to make the Guld experience a bit more "frictionless." Kind of stoked to try a Guld start.
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AstralUniverse
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:24 pm

I'm curious to know if Guld start is officially 'dead' along with the recent update that characters with guld start cannot ever roll. What do you guys think about that? I think it's dead.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Amateur Hour » Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:29 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:24 pm
I'm curious to know if Guld start is officially 'dead' along with the recent update that characters with guld start cannot ever roll. What do you guys think about that? I think it's dead.
They can roll, they just can't roll for an award. So yes, I'd say it's dead, considering that all it does is help you bypass Skal (which, in my opinion, has the highest concentration of really-well-designed content on the server).

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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Eyeliner » Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:50 pm

Not being able to roll is pretty punitive and I wish it would be reconsidered. Put a time limit on it or something-- character has to have been played x amount of hours to roll. That wouldn't be the worst thing for all characters who roll, really.

That said I might still use it since there aren't really any other rewards that interest me right now. Not into genasi, not into most of the special races. I really wish there were more perks for standard races to have a little something for taking a reward instead. I know that means skipping Skal but I don't always want to do Skal and sometimes I want to play a "quickie" concept that isn't a huge investment. Guld is still good for that, you can just get right in on the action. Now those characters are never going to get deleted...

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Re: Guld Start.

Post by msheeler » Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:17 am

Eyeliner wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:50 pm
I really wish there were more perks for standard races to have a little something for taking a reward instead.
This is something I couldn't agree with more. I enjoy playing humans so I have no incentive to ever roll.

Richrd
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Richrd » Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:48 am

The change of not being able to roll Guld-start characters is fantastic and I hope it never gets reverted.
It's known that it was generally seen as a quick and easy shot at another epic roll.

The less Arelith's leveling experience is focused on the lootbox-esque feature of rolling a character the better.



And about this :
Eyeliner wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:50 pm
Put a time limit on it or something-- character has to have been played x amount of hours to roll. That wouldn't be the worst thing for all characters who roll, really.
If that was done it'd be very bad, hypocritical even. Many times has it been suggested to move the entire epic sacrifice system from a level-based reward to a time-played-based reward. And always, ALWAYS has it been denied due to reasons such as "but what about the people who can only play 2 hours a week?".
And other such straw-esque arguments.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:28 am

Richrd wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:48 am

And about this :
Eyeliner wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:50 pm
Put a time limit on it or something-- character has to have been played x amount of hours to roll. That wouldn't be the worst thing for all characters who roll, really.
If that was done it'd be very bad, hypocritical even. Many times has it been suggested to move the entire epic sacrifice system from a level-based reward to a time-played-based reward. And always, ALWAYS has it been denied due to reasons such as "but what about the people who can only play 2 hours a week?".
And other such straw-esque arguments.
This is only tangentially relevant, but I'd like to chime in here. I'm in favor of X amount of time (playing, not idling) to roll a character for a rewards, but I see the point about playing two hours a week- in fact, that point applies to me!

With that said, as someone who frequently plays two hours a week (if I'm lucky!) yes, people who can play more per week are going to get more/better rewards than me - but that's already true in the current system. What is also true in the current system is that two hours in a week isn't always enough to get a dungeon run done if you want it to be an interactive experience rather than a solo or run/grind one. The end result is that in the current system with my kind of playtime I will never achieve level 26 on a character that I start from level 2 for the highest tier of award rolls.

On the other hand, if you gate it by time, yeah, the people playing 40 hours/week are going to get more rolls. But over my 2 hours/week, if I stuck with a character for X amount of hours, I'd be guaranteed to eventually hit that mark, even if I never make it out of the city for a dungeon run or writ.

From my perspective the latter option is superior in every way, and I don't understand the reluctance, other than trying to come up with a good 'reasonable' benchmark for how long a character needs to be played before unlocking each successive tier of reward rolls.
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malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:30 am

Suggestion:

Make Guld start characters not allowed to roll for reward until lvl 30. Those who are rolling for rewards ideally sacrifice at lvl 26 with 30 providing no additional reward.

To get to level 16 you need 120 000 xp

the xp difference between lvl 26 and 30 is 110 000 xp.

At epic levels, especially lvl 26+, your access to writs is greatly diminished for immediate xp options.

With this proposed change you still have the incentive for characters to roll but not make Guldorand start a way of farming majors any faster. In fact you have more incentive to keep a character rather than immediately rolling them at 26 since you will already reach your peak point of development before you have the option to roll for reward.

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Dreams
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Dreams » Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:51 am

Not being able to collect an award past level 26 means I’ll never make another Guldorand start. It’s not about farming for rewards, it’s about having a nice little bit of hope just in case there’s something special at the end.

Maybe instead let the Guld start characters roll at level 30? The XP difference between 26-30 is the same as what you gain from taking the award anyway.

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Re: Guld Start.

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:31 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:30 am
Suggestion:

Make Guld start characters not allowed to roll for reward until lvl 30. Those who are rolling for rewards ideally sacrifice at lvl 26 with 30 providing no additional reward.

To get to level 16 you need 120 000 xp

the xp difference between lvl 26 and 30 is 110 000 xp.

At epic levels, especially lvl 26+, your access to writs is greatly diminished for immediate xp options.

With this proposed change you still have the incentive for characters to roll but not make Guldorand start a way of farming majors any faster. In fact you have more incentive to keep a character rather than immediately rolling them at 26 since you will already reach your peak point of development before you have the option to roll for reward.
Hey that's an excellent idea.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Kalopsia » Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:36 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:30 am
Suggestion:

Make Guld start characters not allowed to roll for reward until lvl 30. Those who are rolling for rewards ideally sacrifice at lvl 26 with 30 providing no additional reward.

To get to level 16 you need 120 000 xp

the xp difference between lvl 26 and 30 is 110 000 xp.

At epic levels, especially lvl 26+, your access to writs is greatly diminished for immediate xp options.

With this proposed change you still have the incentive for characters to roll but not make Guldorand start a way of farming majors any faster. In fact you have more incentive to keep a character rather than immediately rolling them at 26 since you will already reach your peak point of development before you have the option to roll for reward.
I really like this. Great idea!

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:44 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:30 am
Suggestion:

Make Guld start characters not allowed to roll for reward until lvl 30. Those who are rolling for rewards ideally sacrifice at lvl 26 with 30 providing no additional reward.

To get to level 16 you need 120 000 xp

the xp difference between lvl 26 and 30 is 110 000 xp.

At epic levels, especially lvl 26+, your access to writs is greatly diminished for immediate xp options.

With this proposed change you still have the incentive for characters to roll but not make Guldorand start a way of farming majors any faster. In fact you have more incentive to keep a character rather than immediately rolling them at 26 since you will already reach your peak point of development before you have the option to roll for reward.
This deserves to have three quotes in a row.

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Re: Guld Start.

Post by MRFTW » Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:14 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:30 am
At epic levels, especially lvl 26+, your access to writs is greatly diminished for immediate xp options.
Once upon a time, yes.

Nowadays with all the deep wells' writs, this isn't really true. You can still do 3 writs a day all the way to level 30 and they're giving 8-10k XP each.

Richrd
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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Richrd » Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:47 pm

MRFTW wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:14 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:30 am
At epic levels, especially lvl 26+, your access to writs is greatly diminished for immediate xp options.
Once upon a time, yes.

Nowadays with all the deep wells' writs, this isn't really true. You can still do 3 writs a day all the way to level 30 and they're giving 8-10k XP each.
Well, if this is true then that would completely destroy prior suggestion.

Also, to all who feel like playing a Guld character is "not worth it anymore" due to no epic sacrifice being possible.
"It's not about the destination. It's about the journey."
Everyone has heard or read that quote or one similar in meaning. I think when you create a character you should do it for the gameplay and the RP, not the big loot box factor at the end. It's just perplexing to see people focusing so much on how they need to be rewarded for rolling a character. Even while I understand what the justification for the system's existence is. It obviously serves to reduce the workload on DMs due to how players no longer have to go through an application system for races and such. But here's the thing, of all the servers I played on Arelith is the only one who utilizes such a system.
"Oh, you want to play this super strong race/class combination? Well, better keep on power leveling and sacrificing at level 26 for your Epic Arelith Deluxe Edition Loot Box until you get what you want!"
That is the message it gives me.
And in the end it makes the whole game server more MMORPG-ified. With Arelith being focused on maintaining ridiculous (in comparison to other servers) player numbers it just feels even more like that.

So to get back onto the Guld start and to repeat myself. Another shortcut to the epic gamer lootbox being removed is just another improvement.

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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Security_Blanket » Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:07 pm

Guld start to me is like comparing renting to owning a house, one is clearly better as you can still get money back for it when you sell it. In the same way, you're investing an award to skip 16 levels with no chance of any sort of a return. I'd rather own a house than rent and I'd rather have the ability to roll a character I'm not playing anymore for an award, especially if I spent an award on that character. The only way to get another award would be to make a useless character that's good at PvE, grind to 16+ then roll. It's kind of a no brainer for most players I would think, Guld start isn't at all worth it. It's not hard at all for anyone to grind to level 16, even if taking their time.

Guld start would probably be ideal for commoners though.

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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Distant Relation » Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:12 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:30 am
Suggestion:

Make Guld start characters not allowed to roll for reward until lvl 30. Those who are rolling for rewards ideally sacrifice at lvl 26 with 30 providing no additional reward.

To get to level 16 you need 120 000 xp

the xp difference between lvl 26 and 30 is 110 000 xp.

At epic levels, especially lvl 26+, your access to writs is greatly diminished for immediate xp options.

With this proposed change you still have the incentive for characters to roll but not make Guldorand start a way of farming majors any faster. In fact you have more incentive to keep a character rather than immediately rolling them at 26 since you will already reach your peak point of development before you have the option to roll for reward.
Elegant. I love it.

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Re: Guld Start.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:14 pm

Richrd wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:47 pm
MRFTW wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:14 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:30 am
At epic levels, especially lvl 26+, your access to writs is greatly diminished for immediate xp options.
Once upon a time, yes.

Nowadays with all the deep wells' writs, this isn't really true. You can still do 3 writs a day all the way to level 30 and they're giving 8-10k XP each.
Well, if this is true then that would completely destroy prior suggestion.

No it doesn't lol, even with writs level 27-30 is just as long if not longer. You can't solo your way to 30 in 5 days, you most certainly can to 16.

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