Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

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Hazard
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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Hazard » Sun May 22, 2022 5:00 am

This thread has convinced me to make an annoyingly tanky bard that just prances about while others fight.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Skibbles » Sun May 22, 2022 7:18 am

I, for one, am looking forward to taking up the mighty, magical, and mystical Kazoo someday soon.

They will know me by my Doot Horn skeleton summon, my Sad Trombone anti-scry song, and my World's Tiniest Violin lich lyrics.

Dibs. It looks like fun.

To try and pretend I'm somewhat on topic: I've often struggled with conceptualizing sort of the goofy concept of singing, or playing an instrument in a melee, but I think it kind of helps to still consider it mostly as magic. I have long had this tendency to focus on the goofy music part, but I think with some effort a very believeable bard can be played without the strange picture of trying not to get hit by a battleaxe while prancing around in froofy multicolored tights.

Arcane magic already has a mixture of movement and vocalization so it seems to me that it's mostly just the same stuff only based almost entirely on sound. Sound, to me, seems like the more operative word. Instruments are an easy way to make sound, but I think it would be cool to see bardic magic conjured up by doing anything with sound as the 'ignition' source: banging pots and pans, breaking glass, throwing a heavy rock into still water, tearing thick fabric, running a wet finger along a wine glass, and on and on.

I know I'm hardly adding much to the OP here, as compared to recent comments, but it's been on my mind a lot lately as I ruminate on how I will play one.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Hazard » Sun May 22, 2022 7:29 am

I think of bardic magic as if it were the power of songs and music in Tolkien or the power of creativity that dwarves use to power their crazy mountain spaceships in D&D. Some sort of primordial magic that can't easily be explained by any priest, wizard or scholar. Something vague and mysterious and it just works because 'Wow!'.

I don't know if that's the case or what we're going for here, but that seems the coolest and most fun way for me to approach bards. I don't mind the goofy ones either though.

Porque no los dos?

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Skibbles » Sun May 22, 2022 7:39 am

Hazard wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 7:29 am
Porque no los dos?
Absolutely!

If anything it sets the stage for bard vs bard shenanigans, to have two entirely seperate bards meet up, compare notes, and then continually try and upstage one another in escalating antics that culminate in something like a crossroads magical guitar duel.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by TurningLeaf » Mon May 23, 2022 5:01 am

I always thought the gold standard for binary pvp outcomes was mage with timestop.

Is it really better right now to be on the team with bard / no timestop than the team with timestop / no bard?

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Skibbles » Mon May 23, 2022 5:10 am

Timestop is now available to every character that can dip for 15 umd.

So you're pretty close, but mages themselves are pretty far behind when their most iconic magic is widely available as a usable item.

I'd guess the real meta would just be everyone has a timestop book and a bard too. Why not both?
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Scurvy Cur » Mon May 23, 2022 5:49 am

TurningLeaf wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 5:01 am
I always thought the gold standard for binary pvp outcomes was mage with timestop.

Is it really better right now to be on the team with bard / no timestop than the team with timestop / no bard?
Yes it is.

Timestop hasn't been a particularly good decider in pvp for probably 5-6 years now.

Mage w/timestop is really good at reliably dealing mid 400s damage to one target before any response can be made. This is certainly good, but players have gotten much, much better at coping with the mage kit lately. It's useful for finishing off someone who has already burned through their -pray, is a little low on HP, and/or has some debuffs that will keep them from saving themselves with a timely pray button.

It's also useful for giving a mage the luxury to cast floor mords twice (which is a good use, don't get me wrong, but it's hardly a binary win button).

(You may also be thinking back to when timestop mage was described as being very "binary" in pvp, but that referenced a different phenomenon. It wasn't binary in the sense that a team which had one automatically beat a team which didn't, it was binary in the sense that either you had enough HP to survive the wombo combo, at which point your standard issue timestop mage was very low on your threat list, or you didn't, in which case no level of execution on your part would keep you from losing.)

Tl;dr version: I'd trade a wizard with timestop for a bard with a pulse any day of the week.


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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Wethrinea » Mon May 23, 2022 6:54 am

If you struggle with the concept of a bard in battle you really need to play a Lore-Bard in 5e and get creative with Vicious Mockery and Cutting Words. You will not be the same.

Or dispense with the image of the medieval lute player and embrace the Norse Skald.

Bards are superior buffers and an endless font of of potential creativity. That is their reason to exist as a class.

Even when I do play my bard, I struggle with finding others to trade songs with, so they are not all that common.
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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by -XXX- » Mon May 23, 2022 9:17 am

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 5:49 am
This is certainly good, but players have gotten much, much better at coping with the mage kit lately.
I'd argue that this is more a result of people having access to better build options and gear that it is thanks to improved player skill.

Don't get me wrong, players have indeed become better thanks to the increasing popularity of PGCC, but if we looked at the builds from 5-6 years ago, the average max hp would've been cca 200 hp less than it is now (with much lower saves too).

Even then the timestop used to be more dangerous in the hands of a WM than the mage as the "can't be damaged unless below half hp" thing is a relatively recent adjustment to the spell.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Nurel » Mon May 23, 2022 9:40 am

I too think bard is somewhat overtuned, yet still remains a class which is slower/harder to lvl up and presents a higher RP challenge.

Their skillset is unique and they are the undisputed master of all trades, and the swiss multitool of Arelith. We have been discussing their skill supermacy and if/how it must be nerfhammer'd in other threads.

But aside from that, I have to point out that Deep Bard has always been a gamechanger in group PVP. This is the way the class is supposed to be. The only difference now is that Bard is more enticing for people to pick up and play than it used to. As far as group PVP goes, I think this is a good thing.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon May 23, 2022 9:47 am

Yesterday I saw a mage and a wm winning the grand finals of the cordor 2v2s tournament by timestop > darkbolt spam in a very clutch moment. A healer cleric actually got 3rd place. There wasnt a single bard participating. Just food for thought.
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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by -XXX- » Mon May 23, 2022 10:42 am

Bard song is a force multiplier which may not show as much during 2v2 fights.

Its power increases with the size of the party - very much like mass haste.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Mon May 23, 2022 10:45 am

Skibbles wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 5:10 am


I'd guess the real meta would just be everyone has a timestop book and a bard too. Why not both?
Timestop books have been hit hard. They are now the slowest action (they used to be the fastest) and they now only freeze a medium sized area around the user instead of the entire map. I heard the spellsword timestop now functions the same way too with the radius, but that was second hand.

I do think slowing down books was a bit much and completely lost the niche they had, which you can see in the value of the books that are now being sold at times for 1000 coins, but I really dig the radius change. This is all way off topic though, so back to bards!

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by FallenDabus » Mon May 23, 2022 11:01 am

Perhaps the simplest solution is that a bard can only buff up to four other player characters, and curse song only up to four other player characters. Give them a little "-song toggle" where they can prioritize which characters to bard song, and if the song radius affects more than four friendly player characters, it buffs those selected first.

Level 30 bard increases that number by one. Extra Music feat also increase that number by one. That way the feat actually is useful, and a level 30 bard with the extra music feat is capped at six. A level 27 bard without extra music is restricted to four.

The number of summons and NPC enemies that can be affected would remain uncapped, as not to make it a PvE issue.

Personally, I'd not want to see the songs and curse songs to be gutted in terms of the benefits they provide. That'd be super annoying and strip the class of what makes it unique. The balance issues with bard seem to be predominately PvP related, as the PvE balance of a bard appears to be pretty well in line with its purpose as a jack of all trades support class.
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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by -XXX- » Mon May 23, 2022 11:17 am

Wouldn't that just shoehorn bard builds to aim for the 6 person buff though? (let's face it, it's probably impossible to balance mass PvP beyond that scale anyway).

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by FallenDabus » Mon May 23, 2022 11:38 am

I would not take it, but then again, I care so very little about squeezing every little PvP advantage out of my build.
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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon May 23, 2022 12:19 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:42 am
Bard song is a force multiplier which may not show as much during 2v2 fights.

Its power increases with the size of the party - very much like mass haste.
So if we (probably?) agree that bard is the best support class in the game right now but also does none-support things worse than pretty much everyone else, and is also kinda forced to build into con and EDR for survivability, how many party members do you need to have to say that the bard is now more useful than a mage with burst damage nukes or a cleric with harms etc? Both of which also offer party supporting.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by -XXX- » Mon May 23, 2022 1:09 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 12:19 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:42 am
Bard song is a force multiplier which may not show as much during 2v2 fights.

Its power increases with the size of the party - very much like mass haste.
So if we (probably?) agree that bard is the best support class in the game right now but also does none-support things worse than pretty much everyone else, and is also kinda forced to build into con and EDR for survivability, how many party members do you need to have to say that the bard is now more useful than a mage with burst damage nukes or a cleric with harms etc? Both of which also offer party supporting.
We wouldn't. Bards are pretty good even for 1v1 PvP encounters. My argument was that you'd likely need a party of more than 2 to truly demonstrate the power of bard song.

Furthermore, I'd advise against seeing too much into the results of a single IG tournament.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Hazard » Mon May 23, 2022 2:15 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 1:09 pm
I'd advise against seeing too much into the results of a single IG tournament.
^

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by elftv » Mon May 23, 2022 2:19 pm

Bard has always been one of the best classes and is not only an archetypal DND class, but deeply thematic with a lot of meaning for the DnDverse in reply to silly comments about bards not having a place. They literally fight or bring tyranny through the power of music which is some badass both realistic and fantasy shit at the same time. Music affects people's emotions.

Can you compare bard to healer cleric? No, bard was always best at providing it's specific set of buffs. Is or has healer cleric ever been necessary to win? Hell no, you're trapped in a Cordor arena fight if you think so. Seriously, break groups apart, don't walk into a healing circle cast by your enemy and stand there. Walk tf away. It's so easy. It's so stupidly easy. Walk away. Whoa, healer cleric invalidated by the negative energy protection potion I downed as I shift clicked just so they could catch up and try to Harm spam me? They're so limited and predictable.

Bards aren't squishy. Go read bard song, full gear, get armor skin, then do the math. 30 perform is literally nothing to achieve for +5 ac.

Bards are supports all in all, and probably not going to win a 1v1 as the above poster stated against any actual builds. They also can't overheal, cast Heal, cast Mass Heal, cast Greater Restoration, cast 9th level spells, create huge area denial aoes, cast maximized blade barrier for the hell of it, implosion spam. I don't play bards because I like to actually be able to win my own fights instead of needing other people.

When bard can allow me TWO LIVES in one PvP encounter on one monster build that's probably optimized far beyond the random players I'm dealing with, maybe then I'll feel awkward about its place versus healer cleric.

A final note? Basing anything off 2v2 tournaments is a bad idea. I'm starting to wonder if this is just because people were getting bard buffed before Cordor's tournament fights yesterday.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by TurningLeaf » Mon May 23, 2022 3:48 pm

Reading thru the solution seems easy, just put max bard song on some kind of mundane single-use grind-to-find UMD item like Timestop.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Hazard » Mon May 23, 2022 5:18 pm

TurningLeaf wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 3:48 pm
Reading thru the solution seems easy, just put max bard song on some kind of mundane single-use grind-to-find UMD item like Timestop.
Music box!

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Kenji » Wed May 25, 2022 2:40 am

Skibbles wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 5:10 am
Timestop is now available to every character that can dip for 15 umd.

So you're pretty close, but mages themselves are pretty far behind when their most iconic magic is widely available as a usable item.

I'd guess the real meta would just be everyone has a timestop book and a bard too. Why not both?
The difference between the book and a caster cast Time Stop that most forget to take into account is this:
Using a book is instant, but your character will be on the round cooldown (let's say 4.5 seconds) before being able to do anything again. However, for the spellbook cast Time Stop, the moment one finishes casting Time Stop, if coupled correctly with another spell, the caster can utilize Time Stop to its fullest potential.

Observe:
Book-cast Time Stop


Caster-cast Time Stop


Technically, grimoire users have, according to my estimation from the gif, 4 seconds worth of Time Stop if they decide to do anything other than running around. Casters have the entirety of 9 seconds (3 spells worth with haste) to use with their own cast Time Stop for as long as it is followed with another spell cast.

Are those two comparably the same? I don't think so.

One might argue that using the grimoire is almost instant and uncounterable compared to a caster casting Time Stop manually. From that perspective, there's some merit to it, but we shouldn't forget to consider what comes after, as well. What's important to recognize here is the two types of Time Stop cast cater to two very distinct and different scenarios to the point where the two are very different in terms of function and purpose in my book (no pun intended).

I will mention that I did not include Scroll users in my above comparison and they likely have a different effective time for Time Stop, as well. Judging from how there's also an item cooldown and how scroll animations are played, it's safe to say that Scroll-cast Time Stop has an effective timer somewhere between Book-cast and Caster-cast Time Stop.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Skibbles » Wed May 25, 2022 8:48 am

Gosh what an excellent unpacking of the two kinds of timestop! Thank you!
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Flower Power » Wed May 25, 2022 2:49 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 9:47 am
Yesterday I saw a mage and a wm winning the grand finals of the cordor 2v2s tournament by timestop > darkbolt spam in a very clutch moment. A healer cleric actually got 3rd place. There wasnt a single bard participating. Just food for thought.
This isn't an accurate assertion or representation of what was happening.

Bards very much were participating... just not actually fighting. Multiple teams had bard buddies standing off to the side giving them a leg up before the fight (including the 1st place team for at least one round.) None of them just had a bard on the field to debuff the enemy team (but ultimately be a detriment because they're providing 0 kill pressure in a 2v2 scenario.)

The fact that the 2nd place team was a Paladin/Cavalier + Paladin combo, the 3rd place team was a Paladin + Healer Cleric combo and the 4th place team was also a Paladin + Healer Cleric combo, and the only other teams with wins under their belts consisted of 2 barbarians teamed up mostly just tells you that the Cordor 2v2 tournament suggests that Paladins and Cavaliers are in a very good (maybe too good) place right now.
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