Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Security_Blanket » Wed May 25, 2022 2:54 pm

When you use an item you have to then wait for the round to finish before doing something else, unless its a potion. You can use an item, then drink a potion before the round ends and you can cast again.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed May 25, 2022 8:06 pm

Flower Power wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 2:49 pm
mostly just tells you that the Cordor 2v2 tournament suggests that Paladins and Cavaliers are in a very good (maybe too good) place right now.
Seems quite accurate to me and in line with the general state of these classes outside of that tournament.
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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Thu May 26, 2022 5:06 pm

5 vs 5 scenarios where you win from a bard is also often just lose to lag anyways.

I am not sure at this point we need to nuke bard cause of how much is changes the numbers on book.

Like an ideal world everyone has high saves to not instantly die to lvl 9 instant death spell, but in reality when you have massive group improvised conflicts, people in groups die from said spell.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri May 27, 2022 1:36 am

So let me start by saying everyones least favorite thing in the world to say- "I was wrong". I avoided playing around with a charisma con bard because i knew it outclassed my dex bard by a good bit, which was always true of con bards but they were so boring only the most depraved "I need to win" sorts would ever play it. 90% of the bards I've come across were not that. But now that i have theory crafted with it, I can see just how pushed this build is now. You have less hps, but have access to all sorts of goodies...and a prc custom made for you.

Now, I don't have an issue with trying new things and pushing them to the extreme, and rolling back as needed. But here's the thing. The way the nerfs are being rolled out it seems like its hitting all those bards that were around before that weren't hurting anyone save opposing teams without a bards sail score, which tells me something is wrong in the philosophy here. Its one thing to have your less then optimal build be nerfed into oblivion because someone found an existing combination that made the class too broken, its completely another thing when one aspect of your class was pushed to the extreme, and is now being nerfed in a way that effects the older builds.

Bard song is not really the boogie man people make it out to be, nor was their boost to discipline or the damage from lich lyrics (though I can see a honest debate about this one being worth having). Having a bard that can summon top tier undead (that aren't hit like other summons by lich lyrics), cast darkbolt, interposing hand, have a better dc for their songs then any bard would have had before these changes, and has 500-600s and edr 1-3 is. And thats before you tie in dirge singer that gets bardsong to 20 and stacking debuffs, some of which are not as easily removed as curse song. I don't know, maybe the nerfs should have started somewhere in there?

Anyways, the genie is out of the bottle now and there is likely no going back. People are excited to play the new monolithic bard with a goth theme, after all. But for the love of everything you find holy, next time someone needs to ask the question "If we have to nerf this, how can we do it in a way that doesn't impact existing characters" when a new thing is being discussed behind the scenes, because this really sucks. Since the first time this happened to me, the Loremaster "upgrade", I have spent the entire time searching for a character that fits and when I actually find one soon after it gets altered leaving me and my "not everything has to be min maxed" style of playing out to dry. That's what? 2 and a half, three years of this?

It truly is exhausting.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sat May 28, 2022 8:11 am

As I keep saying, the adjustments to bard song and lich lyrics have nothing to do with Dirgesinger.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by elftv » Sat May 28, 2022 2:59 pm

"Monolithic" does not and will never describe bard. Even all this talk about exponential gain with number of players is genuinely kind of irrelevant. Party composition has always had the most impact, immediately after having player skill, and third to having a cookie cutter weapon master build (aka just a good build) heh heh left click make people go boom.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 28, 2022 4:58 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 8:11 am
As I keep saying, the adjustments to bard song and lich lyrics have nothing to do with Dirgesinger.
Assuming that you are including everything i said about how con bards were pushed to godly levels, and not just the one line about dirge singer, I don't know how you can say this. Lich lyrics have been a thing for some time now, so was the discipline buffs and debuffs. There wasn't a peep about this at all ever. Since your changes to bard, there are three or four threads and a constant conversation about bards on the discord, with someone even going so far as to change their screen name to "nerf bards".

Look, this isn't personal and I truly dig what you tried to do here. You were trying to give charisma bards a thing, and honestly I think that was a noble goal. But ultimately what you did was turn the con bard, who was the most annoying to kill but did absolutely nothing else but sing into a force. No one I've spoken with is shooting for song of the heart, they are all talking about getting to 21+ con for edr three and the rest charisma to enjoy the new goodies like darkbolt and undead swarms. Basically a mini wizard/sorcerer with all the bonuses of being a bard.

This wouldn't have mattered so much were it not for the fact that there were strength and dex bards that existed, since you could roll back the power level without effecting others. Sure, they were never as powerful in a group as the con bard was, but they were also a lot more fun to play. Now they are just completely outclassed, which while unfortunate is actually something i was willing to deal with. But the moment you started chipping away at bard to make room for this stuff, I started to get twitchy. Now that we are on nerf two, and probably heading for more, I'm truly concerned about my character that I was thoroughly enjoying playing.

Now, the prevailing argument whenever this has come up before is that some folks have to suffer for the greater good. There is a flaw in that argument, of course, since if you beat my character down every day until I finally gave up and rolled it would be considered a rule breach according to recent conversations. If you change up a class where my build that was totally fine yesterday is now garbage, despite intentions being completely different, the result is often the same. I realize it's in vogue to just be dismissive of people who complain about these sorts of things among the dev team, but that is the connection you are missing. Or at the very least just glossing over in an infuriating manner. But even if we just ignored all that, like I mentioned in the above post this is worse then normal because bards need to be nerfed because of how pushed you guys made it. I know you are going to repeat "But these things needed to be nerfed anyways" but again, I have to point out that this was not true before your changes to bard. The proof is in the pudding... or the forum posts.

I also think that you personally need to consider that not everyone plays 8-10 hours a day across multiple alts like I knew you to do back when we were pirates together. It's a lot easier to lose a character like this when you play that much and have that many options on how to have fun. But a lot of us struggle to find time to focus on one character for an hour a day.

Now I am going to put in a request to change my build into a con build. I hate doing that, because now I have to explain why my squirrel of an old man is now going to be a beefcake, but I really like where I was going with him and I'm tired of tossing away great characters to this, as I also mentioned above. But even those changes come with the pitfalls of "what if bard gets rearranged again" (which actually seems likely to me at this point), since Spyre said he is done in three days with doing these changes.


Anyways, as I proof read this I got the sinking feeling that none of this is going to matter. I think its worth saying, so I am still going to submit. But unless there is an epic shift in the culture around these things, this will be the last post I will write on these forums. I will just play the game until something happens that makes it so I no longer have the desire to do so, and honestly I don't think it will take long. Here's to hoping I miss the mark on that prediction, because I really do enjoy playing here.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Sincra » Sun May 29, 2022 2:49 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 4:58 pm
In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 8:11 am
As I keep saying, the adjustments to bard song and lich lyrics have nothing to do with Dirgesinger.
Assuming that you are including everything i said about how con bards were pushed to godly levels, and not just the one line about dirge singer, I don't know how you can say this. Lich lyrics have been a thing for some time now, so was the discipline buffs and debuffs. There wasn't a peep about this at all ever. Since your changes to bard, there are three or four threads and a constant conversation about bards on the discord, with someone even going so far as to change their screen name to "nerf bards".

Look, this isn't personal and I truly dig what you tried to do here. You were trying to give charisma bards a thing, and honestly I think that was a noble goal. But ultimately what you did was turn the con bard, who was the most annoying to kill but did absolutely nothing else but sing into a force. No one I've spoken with is shooting for song of the heart, they are all talking about getting to 21+ con for edr three and the rest charisma to enjoy the new goodies like darkbolt and undead swarms. Basically a mini wizard/sorcerer with all the bonuses of being a bard.

This wouldn't have mattered so much were it not for the fact that there were strength and dex bards that existed, since you could roll back the power level without effecting others. Sure, they were never as powerful in a group as the con bard was, but they were also a lot more fun to play. Now they are just completely outclassed, which while unfortunate is actually something i was willing to deal with. But the moment you started chipping away at bard to make room for this stuff, I started to get twitchy. Now that we are on nerf two, and probably heading for more, I'm truly concerned about my character that I was thoroughly enjoying playing.

Now, the prevailing argument whenever this has come up before is that some folks have to suffer for the greater good. There is a flaw in that argument, of course, since if you beat my character down every day until I finally gave up and rolled it would be considered a rule breach according to recent conversations. If you change up a class where my build that was totally fine yesterday is now garbage, despite intentions being completely different, the result is often the same. I realize it's in vogue to just be dismissive of people who complain about these sorts of things among the dev team, but that is the connection you are missing. Or at the very least just glossing over in an infuriating manner. But even if we just ignored all that, like I mentioned in the above post this is worse then normal because bards need to be nerfed because of how pushed you guys made it. I know you are going to repeat "But these things needed to be nerfed anyways" but again, I have to point out that this was not true before your changes to bard. The proof is in the pudding... or the forum posts.

I also think that you personally need to consider that not everyone plays 8-10 hours a day across multiple alts like I knew you to do back when we were pirates together. It's a lot easier to lose a character like this when you play that much and have that many options on how to have fun. But a lot of us struggle to find time to focus on one character for an hour a day.

Now I am going to put in a request to change my build into a con build. I hate doing that, because now I have to explain why my squirrel of an old man is now going to be a beefcake, but I really like where I was going with him and I'm tired of tossing away great characters to this, as I also mentioned above. But even those changes come with the pitfalls of "what if bard gets rearranged again" (which actually seems likely to me at this point), since Spyre said he is done in three days with doing these changes.


Anyways, as I proof read this I got the sinking feeling that none of this is going to matter. I think its worth saying, so I am still going to submit. But unless there is an epic shift in the culture around these things, this will be the last post I will write on these forums. I will just play the game until something happens that makes it so I no longer have the desire to do so, and honestly I don't think it will take long. Here's to hoping I miss the mark on that prediction, because I really do enjoy playing here.
So, what exactly is your build that any of the recent changes are crippling to the degree you need a stat shift?
Because from the inside perspective, I'm not seeing it and I would appreciate the information.
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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun May 29, 2022 5:55 am

Short a few gimps to make room for a sail kit I play a typical dex bard. The three things that hit me were:

1) the loss of expertise when using curse song for a round. Rough for me, but rougher for strength bards until,

2) the minus seven discipline, which puts my build well below the threshold unless I rearrange things. And while it's easy to say "well every other dex build has to jump through hoops to get to the threshold" and 100% correct, none of those builds need to push perform to 70 or will be target no 1 in a group fight, with everyone trying to kill the bard first.

3) As someone who chose not to take the undead summons because it didn't really fit (something else about to change) Lich Lyrics was my only source of real damage for pve save for my mid tier summon. I made the point that you could make the case that it was too good for pve in my post above, but the truth is every class is too good for pve these days. The power level of pcs is head and shoulders above the power level of most dungeons. Lich lyrics just put the bard in a similar spot as everyone else.

As to why I feel I need to make an ability adjustment, that comes in two parts.

1) I am concerned that bards will continue to be chipped away at because the con bard is so good now, and if i am going to get nerfed I want to at least be the build that needs to be nerfed.

2) And in a similar vein but slightly different logic, Con bards are just so much better then everything else now I feel silly playing anything else. When I made my bard, con was the strongest in group pvp, no doubt. But it was extremely boring to play and awful at one vs one pvp and pve, where dex and strength bards were better. I realize its hard to visualize how this could be the case when all the bards got the same boosts, but the truth is the strength and dex bards (or just melee bards if you prefer) didn't shift all that much in the three catagories, pvp, group pvp, and pve. The con bard however got way better at all three while maintaining its annoyingly hard to kill status. And yeah, I left out charisma based bards. But they will be in a similar spot to the melee bards, fine until you compare it to the con bard.

I hope that answers your question, and I will try and answer if you got anything further but really I'm just tired. Its not about this thing, or the last thing, or the thing before that really, its a culmination. Its been a lot of bad luck I am sure, but I feel like the arelith part of my life is in the movie ground hogs day. I wake up, I spend the day searching for a character that sticks. By the night time I find one and feel like I have things going in the right direction, and then bam changes come in like "I got you Babe" playing over a clock radio.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun May 29, 2022 6:17 am

The assumption that 'meta' caster bard doesnt take both EDR feats and song of the heart simultaneously, is false from it's core. Bards get Song of the Heart. The build takes esf perform, edr 1+2 and armor skin on it's epic general feats. it needs (and can reach) 19 con and 25 cha. There is no 'con bard'. It, also, gets 67 discipline without any feat investment (21 from gear, as per usual) so I think it's still pretty high for a 8 str character.
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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun May 29, 2022 6:57 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 6:17 am
The assumption that 'meta' caster bard doesnt take both EDR feats and song of the heart simultaneously, is false from it's core. Bards get Song of the Heart. The build takes esf perform, edr 1+2 and armor skin on it's epic general feats. it needs (and can reach) 19 con and 25 cha. There is no 'con bard'. It, also, gets 67 discipline without any feat investment (21 from gear, as per usual) so I think it's still pretty high for a 8 str character.
You're right, I forgot edr was lowered to 19.


That just amplifies everything I said.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun May 29, 2022 1:47 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 6:57 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 6:17 am
The assumption that 'meta' caster bard doesnt take both EDR feats and song of the heart simultaneously, is false from it's core. Bards get Song of the Heart. The build takes esf perform, edr 1+2 and armor skin on it's epic general feats. it needs (and can reach) 19 con and 25 cha. There is no 'con bard'. It, also, gets 67 discipline without any feat investment (21 from gear, as per usual) so I think it's still pretty high for a 8 str character.
You're right, I forgot edr was lowered to 19.


That just amplifies everything I said.
Maybe it amplifies some of what you said, but it also clearly shows that most of what you said was written hyperbolically without really knowing/remembering fundamental things about building a bard.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Levefre » Sun May 29, 2022 3:54 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 6:47 pm
My two cents are that melee bards should make some kind of comeback and that caster bard should gain more tools for soloing pve but have lower powercreep on the end-game lvl 30 songs.
God yes, all of this please.

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Re: Bards feel like Healer Clerics:

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun May 29, 2022 4:11 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 1:47 pm
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 6:57 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 6:17 am
The assumption that 'meta' caster bard doesnt take both EDR feats and song of the heart simultaneously, is false from it's core. Bards get Song of the Heart. The build takes esf perform, edr 1+2 and armor skin on it's epic general feats. it needs (and can reach) 19 con and 25 cha. There is no 'con bard'. It, also, gets 67 discipline without any feat investment (21 from gear, as per usual) so I think it's still pretty high for a 8 str character.
You're right, I forgot edr was lowered to 19.


That just amplifies everything I said.
Maybe it amplifies some of what you said, but it also clearly shows that most of what you said was written hyperbolically without really knowing/remembering fundamental things about building a bard.

By this logic, if I said 1 and 1 is two, 3 and 4 is seven, and 5 and 6 is 12 you would claim all three were wrong because the last one is.

The entire point of what I am saying is that a class that used to have 3 build options now has one because that one was pushed so far. And anyone unfortunate to have chosen one of the other options before these changes has to completely remake or risk not only being a vastly inferior version but also risk getting splash nerfs because of how hard that one version is pushed. The fact that its more pushed then I even thought because i forgot one of the gazzillion changes to arelith from vanilla only amplifies that point. I think anyone who reads these forums knows that critical reading is not your thing, jumping on peoples necks for one miswording or mistake is, but even for you this is one should be obvious.

And yes, I saw the snark in the rest of your first post. I just chose to ignore it because you actually helped, I was almost that guy that pushed for 21 con to get edr. That's the first time I can say that about any of your responses to my posts in a very long time. So thanks for that.

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