thoughts on plots

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2d6 emotional damage
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thoughts on plots

Post by 2d6 emotional damage » Mon May 23, 2022 8:47 pm

events (including DM events) ought to be,

non-punitive. if you are running the event to punish players because they are not playing or doing the thing you want them to do. stop. reflect. maybe you need to have an ooc conversation with them instead. punitive events teach players that dm interactions should be avoided, because bad things happen for participating or going off script. players should also avoid being punitive in their thought process with other players.

fun and exciting for everyone (even the dm). in game design there is a theory that if its cool, the player should be the one to do it. you want the player to feel like the protagonist who saved the day or blew up megatown. its ok to gass people up to win. for the storyteller its all about being the one to enable that kind of magic and excitement to happen by building the set up for the adventure to take place.

opt-out-able (for the most part). its important to be able to say, no thanks, and do something else. good to consider when to cut your losses and let it go. grudges IC can sometimes transcend to real life ooc grudges that never get resolved and remain some kind of toxic miasma of angst about beef that happened years ago. so be cool with working small and letting things go. that idea is cool, but it can be done when the time is right with people who will be into it.

welcoming. players should be excited to participate in the event. it shouldn't feel like a punishment, or like they're being talked down to or unwelcome because they aren't doing it right or whatever. build people up, don't tear them down. you're here to tell a story and entertain.

be open to constructive criticism. some people are always going to be negative nancies and never be happy, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ever listen to criticism. its important to be able to hear the hard stuff so you can reflect on what you do and think about how you can do better. always be willing to look at your writing critically and listen to feedback. this is a collaborative story telling game. work together!


i felt this needed to be said. for legal purposes, my thoughts on plots can relate to player or DM stories. lets keep forward conversation positive. what do you like the most in your plots? dm plots? what works for you and why? what sort of things make you excited to be involved?

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Amateur Hour
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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Amateur Hour » Mon May 23, 2022 9:55 pm

This is less of a commentary on the DM side but on the player side, a situation I've seen sometimes but not continuously:

Please think twice before gating people away from DM plots.

It can be very tempting to say "X is dangerous. Completely stay away from anything involving it while we let The Experts handle it," but The Experts tend to be a very small group of people. Were this the real world we would want only experts to handle such dangerous situations, but this is a game. A game we play specifically to dive into danger and enjoy the thrill of it. Sometimes DM plots end up going in a direction where it is genuinely dangerous for word to get out, but at least half the time we get such warnings from PCs in positions of authority, it really doesn't have to be experts-only.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Richrd » Mon May 23, 2022 10:42 pm

Giving my opinion here on what OP said. Yes, it's not in the image of "lets keep forward conversation positive". But I just feel like these opening statements throw way too much shade at DM events, in a time where the Arelith community is finally receiving the tons of events it ought to have considering the player numbers. Ungrateful, really.

1. Non-punitive? The Dungeon Masters can punish the players at any time, in whatever way they deem appropriate. Your IC actions should have consequences, good and bad. If you think that a "negative" or "punitive" event is cause to avoid a DM then you don't deserve that DMs time (unless of course you think that the DM has some kind of agenda against you bla bla bla ... stuff that would surely come up in Arelith-related echochamber backroom Discords).

2. Fun and exciting? No, not every event has to be fun and exciting. Sometimes it is up to you to strain your player-brain and find fun on your own.
Example: An event could start with NPCs looking for adventurers to escort a caravan to a new outpost in the mountains and help with whatever needs to be done up there. The average Arelithian adventurer might expect tons of bloodshed and carnage as hundreds of giants and wyrms descend to assault you. But after the start of the journey you might realize that the caravan is effectively a single cart dragged by a pair of horses, loaded with tools. Not a single fight breaks out during the journey, no massive assaults happen. You arrive at the outpost and are asked to grab an axe and help out with procuring wood for the outpost's fortifications. Sounds damn boring, right? Because it's supposed to be. Not every day on the job has to be 120% adrenaline hyperboom supercombat. Appreciate the world building and relaxing time to develop your character and chat with other adventurers when it's offered is what I am trying to say here.
I am not even going to get into this "BUT I AM THE MAIN CHARACTER" syndrome thinking here.

3. I don't even get the third paragraph. What does players failing at keeping IC things IC and dragging some ridiculous grudge with them for years OOC have to do with DM events?

4. Welcoming? The fact that you get a DM's time and attention is the welcome. What happens in-character is separate from that. Not every book has a happy ending, not every Arelithian battle royale has to win with a fat W and you getting that chicken dinner. Losing is part of the experience. And it's not up to the DMs to build a story and entertain. You are supposed to be just as involved.

5. Fifth paragraph. Negative nancies? You sure are being one.


This entire thing reads like you are spitting on the efforts of the DM team. If I were a DM I'd certainly be discouraged from creating further events and I sincerely hope you are alone in your way of thinking.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon May 23, 2022 11:02 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 9:55 pm
This is less of a commentary on the DM side but on the player side, a situation I've seen sometimes but not continuously:

Please think twice before gating people away from DM plots.

It can be very tempting to say "X is dangerous. Completely stay away from anything involving it while we let The Experts handle it," but The Experts tend to be a very small group of people. Were this the real world we would want only experts to handle such dangerous situations, but this is a game. A game we play specifically to dive into danger and enjoy the thrill of it. Sometimes DM plots end up going in a direction where it is genuinely dangerous for word to get out, but at least half the time we get such warnings from PCs in positions of authority, it really doesn't have to be experts-only.
Most DM events, by default, feel gated. And maybe that's okay. Because you can't have an event that is inclusive to *everyone*. If the event revolves around finding a healer, my non-healer character is not going to get involved. She is indeed not the expert on this.

Even time and location could be considered gates. For example, an event taking place in Bendir while you are in Cordor is a gate in of itself. Sure, you could race to Bendir as soon as you hear about the event. But you would have little reason to do so, especially if your character already had something else on the agenda.

You could come upon an event that is already happening, but you don't want to be *that* person who hogs the spotlight, so you move along. In this way, timing is the gate.


--

I think gates are healthy and necessary, otherwise you will always have crowds of people who would normally never interact together, vying for the DMs attention.

I agree with Richrd, that a DMs time is limited and those partaking ought to be grateful for the event. But if the event isn't for you, it's perfectly fine to say "That's not for my character to partake in" and move on.


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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Amateur Hour » Mon May 23, 2022 11:08 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 11:02 pm
[
Most DM events, by default, feel gated. And maybe that's okay. Because you can't have an event that is inclusive to *everyone*. If the event revolves around finding a healer, my non-healer character is not going to get involved. She is indeed not the expert on this.
Perhaps I should be clearer; I've observed in recent times multiple plots that have been gated IC to the same small group of Experts. Were these plots related to each other? Only in the most tangential way. Was there any reason only these Experts could work on the plots? Not that I was aware of...but if there was a reason, that's perhaps something to draw to DM attention that their plots are only appropriate for the exact same group of four or five people.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon May 23, 2022 11:19 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 11:08 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 11:02 pm
[
Most DM events, by default, feel gated. And maybe that's okay. Because you can't have an event that is inclusive to *everyone*. If the event revolves around finding a healer, my non-healer character is not going to get involved. She is indeed not the expert on this.
Perhaps I should be clearer; I've observed in recent times multiple plots that have been gated IC to the same small group of Experts. Were these plots related to each other? Only in the most tangential way. Was there any reason only these Experts could work on the plots? Not that I was aware of...but if there was a reason, that's perhaps something to draw to DM attention that their plots are only appropriate for the exact same group of four or five people.
Could they have been faction-based events? Because if so, even then I'd argue that is a healthy gate. Better that than have half the online population race to the location of the event. That, I would argue, is unhealthy.

Let me give you an example: A friend and I were traveling through some caverns and we came across a wandering paladin. They do actually spawn, rarely, without DM intervention, but in this case a DM did possess them. There was back and forth, and it was a wonderful interaction, the paladin trying to sway the blackguard (my friend's character) from his evil ways, warning him if he didn't. A short and simple event, and yet it added so much to this living and breathing world.
Could you imagine if someone had broadcasted that DM Titania is possessing a paladin in the Gambler's Bluff caves? It would completely ruin the experience if players came racing in droves to see for themselves.

That being said, I agree that it's a fine line to walk, especially if one group of players gets all the attention, while everyone else does not even get a chance to participate, or even to say no thank you.


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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by magistrasa » Mon May 23, 2022 11:19 pm

The best faction leaders I ever saw were good at delegating roles of responsibility for plots to other players. Sometimes you think you're doing your fellows a favor by being the person who says, "I'll take care of everything!" - not realizing that you're inadvertently making it a one-man show and isolating others from expressing their own creativity. I can't count how many times I've had a character try to contribute to some event or another, only to be told, "That's cute, but my idea is better." It leads one to wonder, "Okay, well, why am I here? Am I just an audience-member to you?" That's not to say I think you should bend over backwards to make sure everyone's ideas are incorporated somehow (I'm sorry but some people's ideas are just very bad), but consolidating influence at the top rungs of the ladder is really not the way to go if you want to make a fun and engaging story.

At risk of turning this into a kudos thread, I felt like the Erudite Arcanum faction was a shining example of dispersed influence (at least, y'know, back when I interacted with them, like 2+ years ago). Members who had ideas for things to do would bring those ideas up among their colleagues as well as other higher-ranking faculty members, who would in turn coordinate with other officers or trickle down the information to subordinates who could voluntarily contribute as the interest struck them. The ideas were often interesting enough that we didn't even need DM participation to spice it up, although they did see fit to collaborate on occasion. The main thing that made any of it possible was the fact that the roles within the faction were distinct, defined, and earned through demonstrated merit. Intra-faction hierarchy and clear command chains can be really useful in both executing ideas smoothly, and it will also create a brain trust to freely trade creative ideas and inspiration among members. I don't think anyone's managed to do it quite as well as the Erudite did.

Also, please forgive me, this is verging more on the negative side of things, but I am begging everyone who is reading this - please do your best to come up with more creative ideas than just standing in a circle and typing "-conjure" or "-ce *Chants a prayer and channels the energy*" because it really only looks cool in your head and is actually very boring and also usually pretty meaningless. I'm also begging DMs to expect more of the players, because sometimes it feels like success is handed out to players for little to no actual effort and it would be cool to see people actually be challenged - creatively, intellectually, morally, philosophically, psychologically - by the scenarios they face. I promise there is a ravenous hunger for that within the player base.

...I was going to hit "Submit" but then I read Richrd's (needlessly-aggressive) post and for the sake of my health I'm going to limit myself to responding to one little nugget of it.
[...] you don't deserve that DMs time [...]
The fact that you get a DM's time and attention is the welcome.
Setting aside the fact that this post is equally applicable to both DM and player events - for god's sake can we stop worshipping the DMs like they're gods among mortals? That's part of what creates this culture of discontent with the team in the first place. They're players, just like we are. Face the fact that not all of them are good at telling a story and that's okay, because they're learning just like we are. Sometimes an event is going to suck, and that'll happen even if the DM running it tends to be great. It's perfectly alright to have gripes about the way things went down, and it's perfectly alright to voice those opinions in a constructive and respectful way - which is exactly how OP presented this post. I'm not going to tip-toe around the fact that I've only enjoyed maybe 2 DM events in the 5+ years I've spent on this server. We don't improve anything by meeting an invitation for open and honest and polite discussion with defensive vitriol. Humanize the DMs, and maybe we can start treating them the way they're supposed to be treated: Like collaborators, partners, fellow storytellers who want to explore the narratives of Arelith just as eagerly as the rest of us.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Richrd » Mon May 23, 2022 11:38 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 11:19 pm
in response to the part about what I wrote here, post right above me
Nobody here is trying to turn anyone into gods amongst mortals.
Arelith used to have a really bad player-to-DM ratio for a very long time. I could count the amount of events I was part of on a single hand. And that was during a time in my life I used to be no-lifing this PW to an unhealthy degree, reasons being stress and IRL being sh*t. Lots of hours played here.

I say used to have because now I keep hearing about the massive increase in events from different sources, not just Arelith's forums. It's even talked about outside the Arelithian sphere of influence, on other servers and Discords. People universally praise this new trend even if they do not currently play on the server.
It's a very good change.

And frankly the opening post reads like an indirect attack on DM events, like the one writing it happened to have a few experiences that were not up to their taste and now they need to vent. A disservice to the people volunteering and spending their own free time trying to make this world feel more alive.

Was I being aggressive with my post? Oh heck yeah, I intended it to be so. Because if I return to playing on Arelith I don't wish to see the aforementioned trend to be gone just because some people needed to be coddled, handled with kid gloves and created a negative experience for the DMs who were merely trying to liven up the world. There's already little that has any real consequence on Arelith (speaking on an IC level here), so when a DM uses events to punish my actions or create actually weighty conflict and caracter development? Heck yeah, sign me the f*ck up for that, bro.

And yeah, yeah. DMs can be new and learn. But I'd rather not be overly negative with them and instead live with a few bad events rather than only see less than I can count on a single hand for my entire playtime.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by magistrasa » Mon May 23, 2022 11:56 pm

Richrd wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 11:38 pm
Was I being aggressive with my post? Oh heck yeah, I intended it to be so. Because if I return to playing on Arelith I don't wish to see the aforementioned trend to be gone just because some people needed to be coddled, handled with kid gloves and created a negative experience for the DMs who were merely trying to liven up the world.
I'm sorry if this comes across as antagonistic towards you (especially when I said I'd just respond to one thing), but I think you should put a little more faith in the maturity of our DMs. I suspect maybe you read it too quickly and responded as a defensive gut reaction, so I'd suggest looking OP's post over one more time to see that it was really very tame. Sorry for this speculation, but it almost seems like you're using this thread as an outlet to respond to comments you've seen from other people outside of the forums, rather than addressing OP's post by its own merits.

The DMs don't need to be coddled or handled with kid gloves either. The prolific nature of the DM events as of late should absolutely make them fair game for commentary and feedback, as many players are affected by this drastic change in pace. From what I can tell, some are affected profoundly - in both positive and negative ways. I understand that you have a deep respect and appreciation for the team, but you have to admit that it's important to give people the space to talk through how they feel about these things, without fear of being publicly denounced as an ingrate or made to feel unwelcome on the server. If not on the Feedback forum, where else would this discussion go?

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Richrd » Tue May 24, 2022 12:00 am

magistrasa wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 11:56 pm
If not on the Feedback forum, where else would this discussion go?
Send it to Head DMs.
I've seen myself how utterly idiotic Arelith players can be once the DM-hate-train starts rolling. Got first hand experience due to how I've been part of it myself, leading to my eventual permaban (before anyone gets it twisted, I'm unbanned now).

Publicly listing a dozen things you want to school DMs about doesn't do nearly as much good as it might do bad, due to how it might give echochamber-idiots more stuff to mouth off about.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Security_Blanket » Tue May 24, 2022 12:43 am

My thoughts in general when it comes to RP is that "less is more" and this applies for DM events as well. My favorite interaction with a DM happened on another server many years ago now. Myself and another adventurer were killing spiders, grinding for XP and gold, just another boring day. When we approached the cave, we ran into an NPC that wasn't normally there, offering a quest to retrieve a family artifact that had been located somewhere in that cave. Fighting more spiders than we'd normally have to deal with, we got plenty of XP, killed the boss, found the artifact, got the reward in gold and a small bit of XP for a completed quest. It was a very short interaction, the mini plot lasted maybe 20 mins, but it left a lasting impression on me as a player. Those are the kind of quests that I'd love to see more of. It doesn't even have to be a plot, if you're a DM and you see a band of adventurers hunting orcs in a cave then sound the war drums. Make them feel like the fellowship in the middle of Khazad-dûm.

I've seen my share of "world-ending" plots, bigger doesn't mean better, embrace the mundane. Everyone wants to be a part of their adventure, how can you play a part when dealing with a wall of text? You can barely read fast enough let alone type. If you have more than six people involved in a DM event, then I think it's getting too big, but that's me.
Last edited by Security_Blanket on Tue May 24, 2022 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue May 24, 2022 2:27 am

I'm gonna jump in here and say that I feel this is way off base. I haven't been part of this supposed select group of plots, but I don't feel slighted by that fact. I'm sure there are appropriate reasons it's trended that way, besides the OOC consideration that's already been mentioned of just how chaotic a full-blown 'public' event tends to be.

FWIW, I've messaged a couple of DM's about ideas running through my head recently, and more than that over the years. Things don't always go the way you want them to (and this is something to keep in mind while being envious of those you see under a spotlight - there is no guarantee that it's all rainbows and pots of gold at the end) but I've never found them unwilling to entertain an idea.

Might I suggest putting in for a plot of your own, with a slightly less cynical tone, instead of hyper-focusing on what appears to be an ongoing plot thread (where it does, in fact, make sense for continuity to keep involving those who have already been involved). You'd be surprised what kind of ideas get entertained - I never followed through but I once had an idea of reenacting the fall of Tollidor as an offensive move against the underdark - I got a surprising amount of interest from DM's at the time.
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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Skibbles » Tue May 24, 2022 2:29 am

Similar to Aelryn this thread just gives me weird vibes. I don't think it's possible a DM event can be fun, exciting, and welcoming for everyone. Grey chunky nutrient paste is designed for everyone.

I doubt DMs have any more control over a huge number of characters as anyone else does when like 10 PCs are in a large confrontation and it spirals out of control at any single provocation.

Start an event? Reeeee. Don't start an event? Reeeee. Interact with a PC taking the lead? Reeeee. Don't interact with a PC taking the lead? Reeeee.

Exhausting. I salute DMs with the same grim appreciation I would a veteran, a sewage worker, or a noir detective down on his luck.
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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Hazard » Tue May 24, 2022 3:45 am

Maybe I missed the point, but ..
I like it when DM plots result in some kind of consequence or punishment.
I don't think a DM plot should = an automatic win/reward. That would be weird and boring.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Hazard » Tue May 24, 2022 3:46 am

Security_Blanket wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:43 am
My thoughts in general when it comes to RP is that "less is more" and this applies for DM events as well. My favorite interaction with a DM happened on another server many years ago now. Myself and another adventurer were killing spiders, grinding for XP and gold, just another boring day. When we approached the cave, we ran into an NPC that wasn't normally there, offering a quest to retrieve a family artifact that had been located somewhere in that cave. Fighting more spiders than we'd normally have to deal with, we got plenty of XP, killed the boss, found the artifact, got the reward in gold and a small bit of XP for a completed quest. It was a very short interaction, the mini plot lasted maybe 20 mins, but it left a lasting impression on me as a player. Those are the kind of quests that I'd love to see more of. If doesn't even have to be a plot, if you're a DM and you see a band of adventurers hunting orcs in a cave then sound the war drums. Make them feel like the fellowship in the middle of Khazad-dûm.

I've seen my share of "world-ending" plots, bigger doesn't mean better, embrace the mundane. Everyone wants to be a part of their adventure, how can you play a part when dealing with a wall of text? You can barely read fast enough let alone type. If you have more than six people involved in a DM event, then I think it's getting too big, but that's me.
Heck yeah.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Ork » Tue May 24, 2022 3:47 am

I'm in agreement that to be honest I really see little value in DM quests. I would prefer DMs latch on to player events and exceptionalize them. One of the most profound memories I have early in Arelith's history was when my character and the charismatic powerhouse of the hinvasion were practicing magic when a DM spawned an invincible dracolich to which we died to.

I don't know what that DM was trying to do. Punish us? It just seemed infantile and a waste of an opportunity. There's a legitimate threat with DM quests where I feel DMs do spawn in monsters that are meant to challenge but either fall flat or steamroll the players. It sucks when you get bodied by a DM because there is 0 recourse.

On the flip side, my favorite DM quest was when a bodak would mysteriously appear out of the corner of your eye and vanish into thin air. It felt like a scene from every suspenseful horror movie. What was the motive? What was the creature's next move? If I isolated myself would I be its next victim? It was subtle, elegant and scared the hell out of me. It gave the players opportunities to test relationships and cause conflict among formerly well-established friends.

When I think of Arelith, I think of the players being in the spotlight and DMs supporting them within that spotlight. It doesn't always have to have a good ending, but it's powerful when the bad ending is a consequence of the player's choices and not the DMs either error in powerful spawns or intentional punishment via invulnerable NPC.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Paint » Tue May 24, 2022 4:07 am

One of my favorite DM events on Arelith was a badger the size of a house burrowing out of the ground in a cave. That's it. That's all it was. We gave it rations and it was like wow what. That was crazy??? I'm glad it didn't murder us???

I do hope DMs are around doing small goofy things like that for players from time to time still. They make the island feel more alive, and they also help give the impression that the DMs are watching you.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Exordius » Tue May 24, 2022 5:24 am

I for one love the increase in events, and i have yet to see any that appeared to be punitive as far as i can tell.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Hazard » Tue May 24, 2022 9:10 am

This one time we found a little babby rothe at the end of a dungeon, and we saved it from the dragon. It followed us around being cute and making cute noises and we all fawned over it and cuddled it. We took it to Bendir to give to the dwarf lady who has a big momma rothe and we left thinking it was all fine :)

Later on we heard a dragon attacked that town, looking for its stolen snack. LOL

I love the little DM events, where they use their powers to just enhance the world around.

Just the tiniest thing can really stick with me well over a decade later.

One time Toman got sassy about my tiefling being near him. He was all like "Ew." Not exactly, I forget what he did or said exactly, but it really make my tiefling feel like a freak (which is GOOD!)

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue May 24, 2022 9:29 am

A few thoughts.

Firstly, everyone has different tastes in Dm events. World ending mega plots? some folk love them! Tiny interactions? Some folk adore them! Simply Player Requests and nothing else? That's some peoples jam! I don't think it's fair to say 'I like X' plot and thus there should. only be 'X' plot.'

You will run across DM events that you don't like. And that's fine. You can (to an extent) just put that down to personal taste. Excuse yourself from it and move on with your life. I am not going to turn around and say 'Ok from now on all events will be simple attack events/political events/just player requested events/just small interaction events/tiny silly humerous events/just mega world ending events. Because I think it's good if you have some of ALL of the above, and more, because - as we see by the comments here, different people like different things.

When a DM runs an event, they don't just run it for /YOU/ they run it for the server. Sometimes that will mean you can't do the things you want to do.
For example - lets say I run an event that I want to kick off with... the king declairing that Bane is now the official deity of Cordor, and bringing on a Banite Chaplain to stand and prothletize in the temple.
So I make the announcement, spawn the npc chaplain. Then five min later a player runs up to the npc and tries to murder them.
They are of course unsuccessful (either because I made them very powerful, made them immune to damage, or just respawned them).
The player may be upset. But ultimatly the event isn't about one player getting their kicks by murding an npc then walking away. It's about the reprocussions politically and socially of such an act. It's about players discussing that now the city is a Banite city. It's about players trying to find other ways around the issue (maybe political, maybe social, maybe they do want to try to murder the chaplain, but should be considering smarter ways of doing it rather than 'i click and he die'.

Which leads me to the second point.
fun and exciting for everyone (even the dm). in game design there is a theory that if its cool, the player should be the one to do it. you want the player to feel like the protagonist who saved the day or blew up megatown. its ok to gass people up to win. for the storyteller its all about being the one to enable that kind of magic and excitement to happen by building the set up for the adventure to take place.
So firstly, as I said above, everyone gets fun out of different things. Not every Dm event will be fun for you. And that's fine, so long as someone else is having fun. If you arn't? Find a way to back out. Talk to the DM (politely) if neccesary.

Secondly - Again you're using the word 'player' not 'players.' There's a difference. Maybe you won't blow up the megatown - but that's fine, because it might be the next pc over with the better idea. A DM doesn't exist to make the game fun for just you, they exist to make the game fun for ALL PLAYERS. I hope that some... hells most of the time, that will include you, but the sad fact is that it won't always.

Thirdly - and most importantly... Don't get me wrong, simple combat munchies can be fun. Unequivical wins can be fun. But at the same time, that's not in fact actually the job of DMs.
If that were the job of DMs, then my most successful events would be reskinning/renaming rats as ancient dragons, dropping them on players, seeing them murder them all within five seconds, then walking away.
That's not the case.

Victory has to be EARNED

A DM is there to CHALLENGE players, so that when/if they do win, it feels EARNED.

But the thing is... if the win is 100% utterly guaranteed in every way, it's not earned. It's not satisfying.

I don't remember the time I killed Abazur with my five man party of epics within five minutes.

I do remember the time that my pre-epic character and some others came across the white dragon in the spyres. We fought it and almost all the party members (rogue, bard, and mage) died, but the fighter survived and managed to kill the dragon /just/. He raised us, on near death himself, bloody and exhausted and we all laughed and marveled about how we managed that.

And in fact often I find my most successful, well remembered, beloved and interesting events weren't about just giving the players the 'win' but how they reached that win. The choices they made. The decisions they came to. The pride they took and also the regrets.

Who remembers my event with Brogendenstein with the ghost miners, where the ghosts had to be defeated?
Anyone?
I barely remember it myself.

Ok who remembers my event in Guldorand, with the loggers and Amnians vs the Druids? Where a choice had to be made between giving in to zealotic, hateful nature worshipers, who demanded sacrifices, who tortured innocent people, and who wanted to keep the town entirely subservient to nature... and the logging group, who were by sure better people (The leader was in fact a Paladin!) but who's actions would likely damage the natural environment of the mountain for a long time to come.
I think more people remember that.
Because in roleplay and story terms, 'I killed a dragon.' is kinda a one sentence thing. Ok cool. Well done. Good ego boost. Moving on.
But 'I killed a dragon, but it was the mother of a child. I wonder if that child will come back for vengence? Was I right in orphaning a youngling, even if the adult was evil?' - that's something your character can chew on for years to come.

And again I'm not saying unequivical wins are always bad. They can be fun. But I think that sometimes shades of grey can lead to better and more interesting stories in the long term. If I want nothing but unequivical wins all the time, I play single-player games. If I want intersting and characterful storylines... well that's what Arelith is for.

And also - Ok so I'm going to admit that there is such a thing as 'adversarial Dming' and I... am not really familiar with any situation that the opening poster may be referring to? So... it may be that they've run into that. Railroading is a thing. But also - it might be that they just approached a challenge the wrong way.

Like in my example above about the Banite Priest. Lets say that the guy did kill the npc. Well I made him raisable so some other npcs raised him, and the player gets slapped in jail for a little bit/yelled at/fined/whatever.
That's not me 'punishing' the player on a DM level. The player approached a sitaution which is intended to be political/social in a combat manner and reaping the rewards for it.
Sure, Dms should say 'Yes' as much as possible, but they can say 'yes but...' and they can also sometimes say 'No.' if the request just doesn't work, or is to the detriment of the larger plot wherein other players get to have fun too.

Now there's definatly something to be said that we as Dms need to work on telegraphing how such situations evolve, being patient with players when they don't go how we expect, try to evolve events to the taste of the players and say 'yes' as much as we can, et cetera.

So in conclusion

*DMs run events for the server, not just for you. That means you won't always be the star. That means that some events won't be to your tastem, or you won't be able to handle events as easily and quickly as you like to. So it goes. Maybe the next one will be.

*DMs run events primarly to challenge players. The challenges may be social, combatative, mental and so on. Sometimes you won't overcome these challenges, either because you just weren't up to it, or perhaps you approaches a sitation one way, when it should have been approached in the other. That's a shame, but so it goes. (That said we as Dms should probably telegraph or hint what sort of challenge is, make the challenge reasonable, and so on.)

* Whilst constantly loosing isn't fun, constantly winning simply is also dull. Sometimes there won't be a simple 'win' option. Again I admit this may be personal taste but I find events far more satisfying when there's some complexity that rings on afterwards.

* Characters and good stories are rarely forged by their successes, but are often forged by their failures. Drag other people into your story by talking about the times you failed, by trying to grow as a character, by using that to fuel future interactions. Turn your lemons into lemonaid.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by I will never sleep » Tue May 24, 2022 12:39 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 9:55 pm
This is less of a commentary on the DM side but on the player side, a situation I've seen sometimes but not continuously:

Please think twice before gating people away from DM plots.

It can be very tempting to say "X is dangerous. Completely stay away from anything involving it while we let The Experts handle it," but The Experts tend to be a very small group of people. Were this the real world we would want only experts to handle such dangerous situations, but this is a game. A game we play specifically to dive into danger and enjoy the thrill of it. Sometimes DM plots end up going in a direction where it is genuinely dangerous for word to get out, but at least half the time we get such warnings from PCs in positions of authority, it really doesn't have to be experts-only.
This is pretty much right. If your plot is public, yet private, then the plot probably needs work.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Kuma » Tue May 24, 2022 12:47 pm

Richrd wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:42 pm
The fact that you get a DM's time and attention is the welcome.
what if i dont want that time

what then
This entire thing reads like you are spitting on the efforts of the DM team. If I were a DM I'd certainly be discouraged from creating further events and I sincerely hope you are alone in your way of thinking.
Honestly? If constructive criticism is enough to make a particular DM stop what they're doing?

Good.

edit: the bizarre belief that all interactions from a dm (other than punishments or what have you) is inherently something to be aspired to, fawned over, or desirable at all, is absolute nonsense

i frequently walk away from DM quests and plots. i opt out of them all the time. this assumption that the default should be that we are grateful for the scraps we are given from our benevolent overlords is inane and assumes that our day to day DMless RP is somehow lesser than roleplay and plots involving DMs

i dont play for dm quests i play for everything else

and i know that i'm not the only one.
Richrd wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 11:38 pm
People universally praise this new trend even if they do not currently play on the server.
It's a very good change.
people in your echo chamber maybe

i'm hearing very different, in my own echo chamber

we're both at extremes, please stop pretending to speak for an enlightened majority
Last edited by Kuma on Tue May 24, 2022 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue May 24, 2022 12:59 pm

Kuma wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:47 pm
Richrd wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:42 pm
The fact that you get a DM's time and attention is the welcome.
what if i dont want that time

what then
This entire thing reads like you are spitting on the efforts of the DM team. If I were a DM I'd certainly be discouraged from creating further events and I sincerely hope you are alone in your way of thinking.
Honestly? If constructive criticism is enough to make a particular DM stop what they're doing?

Good.

edit: the bizarre belief that all interactions from a dm (other than punishments or what have you) is inherently something to be aspired to, fawned over, or desirable at all, is absolute nonsense

i frequently walk away from DM quests and plots. i opt out of them all the time. this assumption that the default should be that we are grateful for the scraps we are given from our benevolent overlords is inane and assumes that our day to day DMless RP is somehow lesser than roleplay and plots involving DMs

i dont play for dm quests i play for everything else

and i know that i'm not the only one.
I mean... you're not wrong? And Dms should be open to critisism, and take that on, and work to improve ect.

That said - (and I'm not targetting anyone here, I need to stress, I just mean in general) It's a good idea to be a little mindful of what and how you give that critisism.

We're not doing this because we're paid, we're doing this because it's... well. A hobby. Most DMs do this because they want players to have fun, and have fun themselves.

If I upset/insult/belittle another players rp playerside, then they will be upset and will not rp with me, and may leave the server.

And that's bad.

If I upset/insult/belittle A DM over their events, that may put them off running events entirely, or even quit Dming. And that's really bad - because there are fewer Dms than players, and because we do a lot of stuff that, frankly, isn't much fun.

And that doesn't just effect me, that effects others.

Again, I'm not saying 'Don't critisize DMs.' Far from it. Critisism can be useful, and enables us to grow. But just try to be kind when you do it, and also try to take a braud view of things too.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Kuma » Tue May 24, 2022 1:02 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:59 pm
I mean... you're not wrong? And Dms should be open to critisism, and take that on, and work to improve ect.

That said - (and I'm not targetting anyone here, I need to stress, I just mean in general) It's a good idea to be a little mindful of what and how you give that critisism.

We're not doing this because we're paid, we're doing this because it's... well. A hobby. Most DMs do this because they want players to have fun, and have fun themselves.

If I upset/insult/belittle another players rp playerside, then they will be upset and will not rp with me, and may leave the server.

And that's bad.

If I upset/insult/belittle A DM over their events, that may put them off running events entirely, or even quit Dming. And that's really bad - because there are fewer Dms than players, and because we do a lot of stuff that, frankly, isn't much fun.

And that doesn't just effect me, that effects others.

Again, I'm not saying 'Don't critisize DMs.' Far from it. Critisism can be useful, and enables us to grow. But just try to be kind when you do it, and also try to take a braud view of things too.
i'm not the one doing the criticism, the OP is and they were very nice.

i'm defending OP's ability to criticise (to a toxic minority) in small words.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Eira » Tue May 24, 2022 1:21 pm

Toxic positivity is as harmful as toxic negativity. It serves no one well to refuse anything that is less than 100% "omg omg omg I love this"

Is it easy to listen to critique? Of course not. Does someone have to take everything to heart every time all the time? No. But if they do listen, they can learn from it or at least be aware of concerns that one or more people have, in order to make decisions going forward. Not everyone will have the hottest take or be correct on everything. Many will disagree. But if many do agree on one or more points they are worth giving some thought to.

And likewise if one is only allowed to ever hear how amazing they are, then how will they ever improve? If they don't want to improve, well, like I said. They don't have to take it to heart. But if they do want to improve, then many suggestions can have great ideas.

But helpful critique needs to be two-part (as this one is)

1) identify the problem/issue/mishap/etc

2) suggest ways to fix/move forward/alternate

If only #1 is included, then it can (and often does appear so) tend towards the mean spirited, because why offer critique if you have put no thought into how it may be improved? Of course, this is subjective, but overall people should put responsibility into their own critical thinking.

And on that note, if someone has put effort into delivering critique in a thoughtful and non-combative manner, they don't deserve to be shot down. Allow discussions to happen without dying on a hill.

Personally, I see thoughtful critique and suggestions as a sign that someone likes something enough to work for it to approach their ideal.

so tl;dr - lay down your shield when you're facing someone who never picked up a sword in the first place

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