thoughts on plots

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Edens_Fall
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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue May 24, 2022 1:30 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 9:29 am

For example - lets say I run an event that I want to kick off with... the king declairing that Bane is now the official deity of Cordor, and bringing on a Banite Chaplain to stand and prothletize in the temple.

So I make the announcement, spawn the npc chaplain. Then five min later a player runs up to the npc and tries to murder them.

They are of course unsuccessful (either because I made them very powerful, made them immune to damage, or just respawned them).

The player may be upset. But ultimatly the event isn't about one player getting their kicks by murding an npc then walking away. It's about the reprocussions politically and socially of such an act. It's about players discussing that now the city is a Banite city. It's about players trying to find other ways around the issue (maybe political, maybe social, maybe they do want to try to murder the chaplain, but should be considering smarter ways of doing it rather than 'i click and he die'.
Can I request this as a DM plot? I will make my first Banite PC to just to take part!

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Security_Blanket » Tue May 24, 2022 1:54 pm

Everyone has their preferences, both to their characters and plots. I can only speak from my personal perspective like anyone else. Where I personally would love to see more DM attention is with parties walking through dungeons. Whenever I'm with a party and we're taking our time walking from room to room, start to finish, killing groups of monsters, I'm always thinking on how this would be prime territory for a little DM attention. Even just dominating some of the spawns and RPing out the combat just before being killed in brutal fashion, to dominate another and do it again.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue May 24, 2022 1:59 pm

Security_Blanket wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 1:54 pm
Everyone has their preferences, both to their characters and plots. I can only speak from my personal perspective like anyone else. Where I personally would love to see more DM attention is with parties walking through dungeons. Whenever I'm with a party and we're taking our time walking from room to room, start to finish, killing groups of monsters, I'm always thinking on how this would be prime territory for a little DM attention. Even just dominating some of the spawns and RPing out the combat just before being killed in brutal fashion, to dominate another and do it again.
Suggestion - don't be afraid to drop a quick message in the Dm channel for this? like 'Hay! we're doing the temple of Malar if a DM wants to come in and make our lives Interesting!' Not gonna say it'll always work, but it may help draw attention to you.
This too shall pass.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Richrd » Tue May 24, 2022 3:45 pm

Kuma wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:47 pm
bunch of stuff
Okay, so I am in an echo chamber that encompasses a handful of Discords, none related to one another other than that they're about NWN. Uh-huh.
That's not even worth typing a response over, so on to the next thing.

Sure, if you think that the same old treaded grounds of conflict with no-consequence-deaths, OOC cliques, toxicity and the same old crowd are superior to actually having the world around the player be involved too with the help of a DM? Whatever floats your boat, my dude.

I for one think that Grumpy's example of a Banite chaplain in Cordor and the moral conflict stemming from that situation already sound a thousand times more interesting than *insert settlement name* having election drama again that reaches beyond Arelith into OOC territory. Or anything else that happens regularly between the cliques of players.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Ork » Tue May 24, 2022 5:20 pm

I think that's the distinct difference between what you're complaining about Richord. You're burnt out on conflicts that seem to have no resolution, but there are players having conflict with others, making compelling stories and resolving them amicably.

The only limit you have as a player is if someone plays along or not. Not the same with DMs.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Zavandar » Tue May 24, 2022 5:41 pm

Richrd wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 3:45 pm
Kuma wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:47 pm
bunch of stuff
Okay, so I am in an echo chamber that encompasses a handful of Discords, none related to one another other than that they're about NWN. Uh-huh.
That's not even worth typing a response over, so on to the next thing.

Sure, if you think that the same old treaded grounds of conflict with no-consequence-deaths, OOC cliques, toxicity and the same old crowd are superior to actually having the world around the player be involved too with the help of a DM? Whatever floats your boat, my dude.

I for one think that Grumpy's example of a Banite chaplain in Cordor and the moral conflict stemming from that situation already sound a thousand times more interesting than *insert settlement name* having election drama again that reaches beyond Arelith into OOC territory. Or anything else that happens regularly between the cliques of players.
This post is very demeaning towards non-DM narratives and pushes false dichotomies. Please consider how hostile you are being; it's unbecoming.
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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Floral Shoppe » Tue May 24, 2022 8:13 pm

I'd like to see some DMs make lower stakes events for low and mid levels only (actively turning away anyone epic)

That could bring in more players who feel they're shut out of the save-the-world epic stuff and if there was some exclusive activity in that level range it could encourage sticking around those levels longer. It would also help new players see that kind of RP in action.

The best DM run events I've even been involved in on Arelith were all on Skal and were attended mostly by characters level appropriate. That's a perfect place for DMs to run smaller stories.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by -XXX- » Tue May 24, 2022 8:49 pm

Personally, I don't view DM events any different from a player character throwing a party in their home:
I wouldn't presume telling the person organizing it how to do it.
I wouldn't get salty over my character not getting invited.
I wouldn't feel obligated to attend if they do.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by La Villa Strangiato » Tue May 24, 2022 9:28 pm

Kuma wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:47 pm
Richrd wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:42 pm
The fact that you get a DM's time and attention is the welcome.
what if i dont want that time

what then
This entire thing reads like you are spitting on the efforts of the DM team. If I were a DM I'd certainly be discouraged from creating further events and I sincerely hope you are alone in your way of thinking.
Honestly? If constructive criticism is enough to make a particular DM stop what they're doing?

Good.

edit: the bizarre belief that all interactions from a dm (other than punishments or what have you) is inherently something to be aspired to, fawned over, or desirable at all, is absolute nonsense

i frequently walk away from DM quests and plots. i opt out of them all the time. this assumption that the default should be that we are grateful for the scraps we are given from our benevolent overlords is inane and assumes that our day to day DMless RP is somehow lesser than roleplay and plots involving DMs

i dont play for dm quests i play for everything else

and i know that i'm not the only one.
Basically all of this, yes, and also the OP's post. I have never been the one clamoring for large events where everything is happening at once, and I have never pretended to be. Like Kuma said-- I don't play for DM quests, and an ability to change the world as a player is why I continue to play Arelith.
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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Painus » Tue May 24, 2022 10:07 pm

Richrd wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 3:45 pm
Kuma wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:47 pm
bunch of stuff
Okay, so I am in an echo chamber that encompasses a handful of Discords, none related to one another other than that they're about NWN. Uh-huh.
That's not even worth typing a response over, so on to the next thing.

Sure, if you think that the same old treaded grounds of conflict with no-consequence-deaths, OOC cliques, toxicity and the same old crowd are superior to actually having the world around the player be involved too with the help of a DM? Whatever floats your boat, my dude.

I for one think that Grumpy's example of a Banite chaplain in Cordor and the moral conflict stemming from that situation already sound a thousand times more interesting than *insert settlement name* having election drama again that reaches beyond Arelith into OOC territory. Or anything else that happens regularly between the cliques of players.
This post reads like you're implying players have no agency over whether the world around them changes or not. It's disingenuous to the efforts many players make towards creating a living, breathing, moldable world with their various characters and factions. DMs should not be there to shoehorn in changes on a whim, but rather should be there to assist players in bringing about the organic changes they wish to add to the world.

DMs are there to help share in the player's story, not to tell them what happens in the world in which they live, otherwise this would just be a railroaded PnP campaign and not a collaborative story-telling sandbox. There's a lot more going on in the world created, led by, and participated wholly by players that you don't see. I've been part of very few DM events, and the ones I have been a part of had no substantial impact on the world beyond being a story my characters could tell in a gathering later, or some memory they could recall, like Hazard's story about finding a baby rothe and losing our minds over it. I like small things that break up the monotony but don't cause any major, lasting impacts that take agency away from the player.
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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by DMSatyr » Wed May 25, 2022 6:15 pm

DMs are there to help share in the player's story, not to tell them what happens in the world in which they live, otherwise this would just be a railroaded PnP campaign and not a collaborative story-telling sandbox.

Your statement here is not entirely correct, I'm afraid. The DMs are not here to soley follow and engage in a character's personal story but are also the server's custodians and the ones who enact and follow through world-changing events that are (or may be) unrelated to any character's own storyline or quest in mind. Though if a DM was just telling you a story and not really interacting with you as a character, one can all agree it would be pretty boring. But there's give and take, here.

Large world changing stories can and do take place in this server as well as other events that might not have a direct attachment to any character's own story and narrative. These do not happen too regularly and it is not the DM Team's intent or desire to rob any character of their agency of force them to engage with it. But the world of Arelith is not a static world made up of purely individual storylines and sometimes you, as a player, might find themselves involved in a DM event that has an overreaching narrative which might affect your character and the world they live in. There are various ways to opt out or not take direct participation in such events and we do not demand participation. But characters on this server are not excluded from the changes wrought by the DM Team as previous citizens of Benwick and Wharftown might find themselves agreeing to.

While you would be certainly correct to say that we as DMs can help and do help players develop and explore their storyline and narrative, this does not mean it is the only purpose we have when making events and storylines for the server as a whole.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Marsi » Fri May 27, 2022 1:55 am

It's worth mentioning that Arelith used to have the policy/saying that DMs were "smelled, not felt".

It's not out of left field to question heavy DM activity when for the longest time Arelith prided itself on having little DM intervention -- this was always how Arelith differentiated itself from the many unremarkable DM-led servers. For many, myself included, this is how it was, and I'm not sure when that changed. Probably a cultural shift due to the EE newcomers (many of which are now DMs themselves).

Having spent time on more traditional servers, I find Arelith's model far superior. The player can do whatever they want. It's permissionless. On other servers only the DM events really matter, and all the areas, PvE content, NPCs are just magazines in a waiting room.

Like others in this thread, I avoid big events and have for years. I deeply appreciate small atmospheric touches and remember them with profound nostalgia whereas all the big event "paush/pirates/demons/skeletons are invading!" quests blur together. The best big events I've experienced were a collaboration between many DMs / the whole team. The worst were when a single DM tried to pull off the whole epic, world is in peril thing.

Seems wrongheaded to me to call what happens outside of DM events as "static", because by definition the player reality is dynamic and subject to many inputs, whereas the event is largely subject to one, and is usually following a script. Might be a bit of a reach but I've always suspected there's a correlation between those who speak of player narrative as unexciting/"less than" and those who get super riled up by political/military upsets or the unseating of encumbent power. Of course it might seem static and boring if there are players who are hellbent on things not changing by player hand, and instead feel only a DM has the right to progress the story.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri May 27, 2022 6:35 pm

Marsi wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 1:55 am
.... .and is usually following a script.
A well designed dm plot, which shouldn't confused with a one shot event like has been described a few times above (ie, npc in the spider caves or where ever they were), does not follow a script. A DM should go in with flow chart of various paths depending on player choices at key moments, and be fully prepared to create a new path when players inadvertently do something silly you could have never predicted because that is most definitely going to happen. At its core, its generally a series of one shots that should not only involve a large variety of groups (Ie one group does step one, another group does step 2) but also each should feel like its a finished storyline at the end of that event on some level so if the players of a certain group don't carry on with the story it doesn't feel like a dangling cliff hanger over their head until they finally hear about how someone else did the finale. Its also best to not rely on players passing information to each other. It looks great on paper, but between characters rolling because they got killed and players being stingy it always flops.


Some other random things that stood out to me in this thread:

in regards to dms "punishing" players with an event. It depends on what you mean by punishing. For an easy example, if there is a vorpal sword behind an electrical forcefield and a player runs up and touches it, they should get burnt for a healthy chunk of their hps. If they keep doing it, they gotsta die. That can apply to far more nuanced stuff of course, I just wanted to keep it simple.

It doesn't have to be about the dms being an invasive species on the purity planes of player driven bliss, the two can exist at the same time.

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri May 27, 2022 7:48 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 6:35 pm
Marsi wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 1:55 am
.... .and is usually following a script.
A well designed dm plot, which shouldn't confused with a one shot event like has been described a few times above (ie, npc in the spider caves or where ever they were), does not follow a script. A DM should go in with flow chart of various paths depending on player choices at key moments, and be fully prepared to create a new path when players inadvertently do something silly you could have never predicted because that is most definitely going to happen. At its core, its generally a series of one shots that should not only involve a large variety of groups (Ie one group does step one, another group does step 2) but also each should feel like its a finished storyline at the end of that event on some level so if the players of a certain group don't carry on with the story it doesn't feel like a dangling cliff hanger over their head until they finally hear about how someone else did the finale. Its also best to not rely on players passing information to each other. It looks great on paper, but between characters rolling because they got killed and players being stingy it always flops.


Some other random things that stood out to me in this thread:

in regards to dms "punishing" players with an event. It depends on what you mean by punishing. For an easy example, if there is a vorpal sword behind an electrical forcefield and a player runs up and touches it, they should get burnt for a healthy chunk of their hps. If they keep doing it, they gotsta die. That can apply to far more nuanced stuff of course, I just wanted to keep it simple.

It doesn't have to be about the dms being an invasive species on the purity planes of player driven bliss, the two can exist at the same time.
I don't think I could have worded this any better myself. DM interactivity and player initiative are not mutually exclusive, and adding it to the mix isn't going to destroy the motivation of player plots - the people who allow it to destroy their motivation are living in an 'either/or' world unreasonably- or didn't have much motivation to rally a plot together in the first place.

I believe the notion that a world where DM events shape the story is somehow 'lesser' is a flawed concept. A world where players have no agency is definitely 'lesser,' but just because a DM plot leads to, oh say, a Banite becoming the Royal Consort of Cordor, doesn't mean players can't initiate an attempt to assassinate her in such a way that revival is nearly impossible. Or maybe somehow frame them for a crime of treason. Whatever might get the job done.

A server with DM Plot involvement is only lesser, IMO, if the DM's staunchly insist that you can't even try to remove the Royal Consort after she's elected. A server that lets you attempt such things at high risk in response to ongoing server narrative is, in my personal opinion, the peak of what a persistent world experience could and should be.
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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri May 27, 2022 10:42 pm

(Note I'm still on break so wouldn't be willing to run this - but I want to use this example)

To a large extent, how much a DM plot has any effect on your character is pretty much up to you. Events where DMs enforce mechanical effects on players (short of normal pve death and such) are very rare. So you can come out of an event where say, a dragon killed 10000 people and ate them in front of you with your character going 'Eh. Must be tuesday.' Or you can come out of an event where a DM had an npc squash a butterfly, with your pc falling to their knees weeping and screaming, avowing death to all guards for their careless destruction of poor, helpless, insectoid babies!

I mean - of course there's some amount of setting versimilitude and such that we as DMs do hope that you abide by, entirely ignoing DM stuff is rather rude, but you have to go pretty far for it to be anything like enforced.

What's better, DM plot or player plot? Is it better to have a server with lots of DM events? Or a server with lots of player events?

Well - I mean the thing that keeps me on arelith is the fact that it can run without a DM. That it gives players enough tools that they can make reasonable consequences and storylines for others without needing a DM looming over head. That it also encourages - via the RPB system (and note encourages not enforces) players to try and go along with other plots, other consequences of players. So that you guys can run your own game to a degree. During the time of 'smelt not felt' it kept arelith very much fun and alive.

... but....

DM events are also rather fun! The odd bit of fun adventure, spice, interest works to shift things up a bit, and stop things becoming too... stale? DM events are the icing on the cake, they add a bit extra and it's great. They arn't why I (as a player) play on arelith - but they are pleasent too and I don't begrudge them one tiny bit!

As for the quote I gave above...

Something to remember is that you can... attempt things, even though you know, on some level, that they won't work. That's not neccesarly the point. The point is to try and make some story from them no matter what happens.

On a meta level I know if I pvp a pc, they'll likely respawn. But that's not the point. Hopefully the point is to make a story between myself and the pc to work off from. HOpefully If I make their death interesting and fun and well built up enough, they'll take it. Or do something else interesting from it.

In the case of the example:
I believe the notion that a world where DM events shape the story is somehow 'lesser' is a flawed concept. A world where players have no agency is definitely 'lesser,' but just because a DM plot leads to, oh say, a Banite becoming the Royal Consort of Cordor, doesn't mean players can't initiate an attempt to assassinate her in such a way that revival is nearly impossible. Or maybe somehow frame them for a crime of treason. Whatever might get the job done.
By all means do try stuff like this (er, by which I mean send in event applications, not like - randomly)! But don't do it thinking 'yes this will succeed.' Rather- maybe try it for other reasons, because whatever happens it might be fun!
Maybe you WILL kill the queen, and Cordor will be free of her vial influence forever!
Maybe you'll fail and end up yelled at and temporarily banished (or some other consequence that the Dm would probably check to make sure you're ok with)
Maybe you'll not kill her, but gravely wound her, causing her to shrink from the public eye, to hide her terrible scars!
Maybe you'll succeed, and send the King into such a horrible spiral of grief that he turns to Shar and something darker looms!
Maybe you'll fail, but the palace can't take action against your pc, fro the sheer weight of public opition and praise laid upon you. Causing them to mostly ignore it, but a few allies to pass on gold and jewls to you as a 'thank you' for the attempt.
Maybe... maybe...

But succeed or no, hell - even if your character ended up permadeathed from this (And Dms pretty much NEVER do permadeath in events, unless the player has specifically asked for it, or given their permission) it'd be one hell of a story to tell!
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: thoughts on plots

Post by Gremkarc » Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:44 am

I hope no one will object if after a five day lull I bump this thread; I find the discussion, and some of its flashpoints, fascinating.

As a total newbie to Arelith and the PW genre, with all the attendant naivety that implies, it strikes me that DMs are one of the unique selling points of the whole thing. My background is in MMO RP, where if there was such a thing as a "DM", it was a player, and the only levers they had to pull lay in the communication systems built into the game. Co-opting tools for raid leading to instead describe the action that *wasn't* visible on screen, and to point players, through raid markers, in the right directions. Clumsy stuff, but if you want to roleplay in an MMO, this is what you have to do. I'm sure this isn't news to most.

So the idea that Arelith has staff who are specifically around to facilitate dynamic RP for players is... well, it's tantalising. The world can actually change through player input. Gameplay and RP can closely intersect. Plots originating from players can be given that extra boost from DMs. I can see the pitfalls, and I'm sure that in the past there *have* been big unsubtle events in which a big bad beast has been dropped somewhere, or an army of skeletons, and it's been too chaotic to keep up. Chatbox spam galore. But even the most jaded player should not lose sight of the power and possibility sourcing from having server staff actively involved, and invested, in RP.

All the OP's suggestions seem sound to me. I do value inclusivity, and I believe that if an event is public, the greater part of attendees shouldn't be there to fill out the numbers. But to create scenarios in which a large number of people all feel like they've had a part to play is hard, and DMs should most certainly be lent the patience while they puzzle through these conundrums (and then shown profuse gratitude whichever way it goes!).

But yes, all the guidelines you'd find in a core rulebook apply: the DM should not try to assert too much control over their players. Because just as the DM is giving their time to the plot or event, or what have you, so too the players are giving theirs. Neither party has selfless motives. Arelith wouldn't exist without its staff; Arelith wouldn't exist without its players.

When I organised events on MMO RP servers, I did like to go big. My benchmark was Helm's Deep, but what interested me about Helm's Deep was not the climatic battle so much as the dynamics preceding that battle: all the tense scenes (I speak of the films as well as the books) of the people Rohan preparing their defences: the gearing up, the speculating on the enemy's moves, the attempts to make sure that the defence was watertight. In roleplay what this meant was, a week-long garrisoning of whatever stronghold felt appropriate for a big battle. Everyone in attendance came with a prepared role: a smith, a carpenter, a scout, a drill sergeant, a cook, a chaplain, a demonologist, a secretary. The slogan of these events, and I ran a few, was "bringing epic to everyone". And I don't think anyone who attended them would say the last battle of each was the best bit. No, what made them worth attending, and worth running, was the atmosphere in the hold during preceding week, where we as a community would work out ways to make downtime the entire point. Sometimes this meant skirmishes outside the hold, or bold manouvres into enemy forward camps, but not everyone would be involved in those -- the majority of people would be inside the keep, working organically at their assigned, and volunteered, jobs.

I go on this tangent because I want to describe how, in fact, big events are best when they can be compartmentalised into many smaller ones, interconnected silos that feed into a whole. Arelith's large population absolutely means that publicised DM events are going to attract many players, and I imagine (again, speaking from a position of naivety) they can become unwieldy because of it. But there *are* ways of breaking down flagship narratives until you have a nice flotilla, on which all tastes are catered for. Dungeon interactions involving just two-three players and a DM sound great; and they can exist within a larger context, even.

Anyway, I was moved to post because, where DMs are concerned, I don't think hagiography is helpful, but nor do I think anyone has a cause to be bolshie and ungracious. I think even for players of 10+ years of experience of PW RP, it's good to remember what makes the whole thing unique, and to me that's the much closer relationship between staff and players, which means RP rules can be enforced and mediated, *and* the world can sometimes change to the delight, or at least the shock, of the players concerned. I hope this newbie's perspective can be counted as worthwhile, though!

Edit: Just to add, on the non-punitive thing: I totally agree here. It's important that players don't leave events with bad tastes in their mouths, it's important events are never made for any motives other than to entertain in a gregarious manner. Actively setting out to harm characters *is* just going to cut attendance down at the next event. It's all part of that contract: the two sides should engage each other in good faith, because they're depending on each other for a good worthwhile time. Events don't have to end in rampant success for the players, but they should never feel cheated, or like they've been made an example of.

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