Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

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Waldo52
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Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Waldo52 » Mon May 23, 2022 8:51 pm

There have been so many comprehensive changes in the past few months. Just look at paladins, blackguards, warlocks, shaman synergies, bards, clerics, spellswords, druids, rangers etc. I like a lot of what I see but there's a sort of power creep setting in, and the losers of Arelith are looking worse by comparison every day. Sadly as much as I love the class, rogues are feeling pretty losery of late.

Before I give specific feedback I have to admit that I've heard from a few forum-goers who claim to have soloed rogues to 30, saying it was easy. I'm anticipating a few of these types of responses so I'll just throw in a bit about my own rogue experience: after playing regularly on a rogue for about a year I made a shaman to level with my friend. I was not optimizing or using appropriate gear and at times was practically trying to get killed.

The rogue needed an ally to tackle level appropriate content. The only alternative was to spend 2-4+ thousand gold on traps, wards, healing and grenades. At level 20 a level 20 writ could take hours and I'd likely die in the attempt.

The shaman was different. He was a tribal barbarian dip who walked into battle with leather armor (because it looked cool) and a whip he was not proficient in (because it looked cool). I took the evocation spell focus feats because damage spells are fun and used slightly more direct damage spells than I should've. While his gear was pathetic and half of his decisions were made around the rule of cool, the dude could single hamdedly trivialize writs by simply existing with summons+tribals+magic.

Yes, as a rogue player I do take some perverse pride in playing on hard mode. But there's a big difference between having a hard time due to a steep learning curve and having a VERY hard time because your class is mechanically so incredibly inferior.

With my experience and general opinion out of the way I'll just get to my list of feedback items:

1) Grenades seem weak.

Brilliant system. i love the pseudo-artificer feel, and the way rogues seem to be the tech nerds of the server. However the highest attainable DCs are not so great, flashbangs are absurdly pricey, the whole system needs to be dialed up a bit.

Also while I do hear good things about acid/fire bombs, upper echelon consumable grenades are expensive. Without paths, feats, meaningful grenade improvement options or a simple damage increase across the board, this whole Arelith custom system feels under utilized.

2) Strength Rogues are cool, but most of what this server has given to rogues works against them

Weapon finesse as a free feat is a godsend for most rogues, as are Lightly Armored and grenade access. But these reforms do very little for a beefy thug.

3) Archer rogues have it hard too

Last time I checked, crippling strike does not effect ranged weapons. Poison arrows exist, but it's much easier to smear a melee weapon with poison. Knockdown is not an option so landing sneaks is that much harder. Rangers get all their core ranged feats per free, plus called shot. Ranged rogues feel like they're left holding an empty bag.

4) invisible blades are incredibly cool, but ironically don't serve rogues as well as other classes

While I'm about to start playing one for flavor reasons and a general change of pace, I mostly hear about IB as a good dip for barbarians and rangers. This PrC is gated behind a feat tax, which is usually q pretty demanding thing for a rogue. This often limits your ability to do two weapon fighting, but things are just as bad if you want to use a shield as neither class is proficient. Things would be a little better if IB granted additional sneak attack damage or was generally a little stronger.

5) Rogues have generally faced trouble with their signature skills given PvP rule reforms.

People now have to know you've set them to hostile when you pickpocket them. I've often set traps with the intention of setting an enemy to hostile, only to have the enemy in question step on the trap during RP and having it sent to my pocket. I'm not going to criticize these changes, as these are complex discussions in and of themselves and settled matters anyway.

6) The class is feat starved

Two weapon fighting and archery feats are a fundamental part of many rogue builds. I love the specialized nature of rogue bonus feats but we're a class with a very combat oriented nature and we don't get any additional combat feats.

7) Rogues are glass cannons that feel more glass than cannon.

Sneak attack is good, but it's situational AND other classes blow us out of the water in terms of raw damage even in good circumstances. This wouldn't be an issue if our grenades and abilities in general gave us more to work with. But we're tricky damage dealers with mediocre tricks and mediocre damage.

8) No paths

Stealth god, master of disguise, offensive warrior, brawny thug, grenade lobber, etc. Rogues can be all this and more but without path support everybody seems to be doing better than us.

I realize that much of this has been stated previously by myself and others, but I felt that in the context of all these recent class upgrades we needed a general rogue feedback thread. We're hurting. :(

9) (EDIT) No synergies

Tribal barbarian shamans. Monk shamans. Ranger shamans. Bard warlocks. Hexblade warlocks. Pale master warlocks. Bard clerics. There are a lot of new synergies. I don't think that lack of synergies is necessarily a problem or that synergy should be some entitlement for every class, but rogues are drowning and synergy is like a lifeguard for those who are already floating fine.

Getting some paladin oath abilities or ranger toys with modest multiclass investment wouldn't exactly save us, but seeing these goodies proliferating through the server just rubs in how neglected we are. In fact, we have the opposite of synergy, we have utter dependence on classes like fighter, ranger and (insert divine here) for our basic needs. Access to discipline and a fourth attack are incredibly important, but this reduces the potency of our sneak attack and guts our skill points to the extent where even our skill point advantage over bards becomes nominal.

10) {EDIT} Gear and Discipline

Gearing a rogue is hell. We tend to need dexterity, Con and strength in a big way. Divine builds need charisma. At the same time we have a reputation for being a skilly class. We also have a huge need for discipline. While I know everyone needs disc. to some extent and even many wizards will even dip for it, rogues are at a major impasse.

There are a lot of gear nerds on these boards, so feel free to correct me but it seems almost impossible to build a gear set that shores up discipline to adequate levels, buffs relevant stats to the needed amounts and has any wiggle room for those signature rogue skills. Even with a good helm + displacer beast cloak + rogue leathers or equivalent and everything else being god tier basin stuff with millions spent on runes and 5% rolls it's extremely difficult to plan, let alone do.

I think we need more class specific (or just highly compatible) items that are actually craftable or possible to find.
Last edited by Waldo52 on Wed May 25, 2022 5:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon May 23, 2022 9:42 pm

Rogues are on a thin thread (no pun intended). I want to say we should revert the nerf to grenades from a while back but I'm not even sure rogue needs a buff. It's a skill heavy class with a lot of cookies, that still preserves situational burst damage windows sometimes and is very "abusive" by skilled players against unskilled players so I'm not quite sure where the fine tuning lays. I dont think Rogue has it fair when it comes to gear economy.
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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by ImWithThisGuy » Mon May 23, 2022 10:32 pm

There's a lot to agree with here, but I have a few larger worries than class balance. Namely Power-creep. It doesn't feel all that long ago that the rogue update went out, and rogues became a truly competent class. Funnily enough however, that was four years ago. It was wonderfully implemented, and the class really did hold on for longer than any other Arelith Class customization, finding itself on top of the meta less than a year ago.

I don't know how I really feel about constantly complaining about the numbers, then raising them when they seem low, then complaining again, and once again, adjusting. It's a cycle, and eventually, it ends in dissatisfaction and burnout. I feel putting in-module rewards for different classes or feats, etc. is a far more balancing measure to keep classes interesting and relevant.

Which brings me to my second issue.. I have to admit I felt a pang in my heart when reading the changes to disable trap. Was it annoying dealing with the infinite traps for anyone without rogue levels? Undeniably so, everyone hates those dang things. That said, people already had their ways of avoiding or denying this limitation; Familiars as one, and gonnes as another, while some more invested characters had a swap set of gear to just recover the trap outright. These were a bit cheeky, but I prefer them to putting no limitations or trade-offs on characters. Plus, a 3 rogue dip (which is still very viable and powerful) removes this restriction.

Some may view this change as a nice QoL, and I can't deny that it kind of is. I think the main thought was that people would still have to invest in order to utilize this change, but.. That's not really the case. With some quick math:

Take20 +2int +1rank +20gear +2goodhope = 45.
That's effectively no investment and will get just about any traps you'll come across. You can also get much more than that with the right gear. This is possible for ANYONE, and if they're a bard or have access to rogue's cunning via item, they barely need gear at all. The same applies to detection, except there are infinitely available spells/items to account for this in Find Traps. From a gameplay enjoyment perspective, the change makes sense. But from a server fundamentals standpoint, I feel it's disingenuous. Especially once you consider the experience rewards for disarming traps.

Ultimately, I see this as an unintentional change towards furthering the 'must solo dungeons' stigma, which was already prevalent enough. It makes me think the team hopefully has something planned for rogues elsewhere, so here's hoping.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Skibbles » Tue May 24, 2022 12:00 am

I can't speak about rogue power or anything but I think it can use some 'flavor' abilities.

Lately I've been thinking: What if rogue was sort of an Urban Ranger type?

Just small little bonuses in cities and stuff to sort of give them a certain vibe and feel.

Maybe like an inverted nature sense, or sneak bonuses instead of penalties in cities, access to secret message boards or some intangible communication like graffiti, and so on.
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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue May 24, 2022 12:18 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 9:42 pm
Rogues are on a thin thread (no pun intended). I want to say we should revert the nerf to grenades from a while back but I'm not even sure rogue needs a buff. It's a skill heavy class with a lot of cookies, that still preserves situational burst damage windows sometimes and is very "abusive" by skilled players against unskilled players so I'm not quite sure where the fine tuning lays. I dont think Rogue has it fair when it comes to gear economy.
Due to Bards now having ALL skills as class skills, Bard is the superior skill monkey class.

This usually means the Bard will be picked over the Rogue in a group setting, as the Rogue has almost nothing to offer that the Bard already doesn't offer along with its Bard-only goodies.


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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue May 24, 2022 12:21 am

Hi, I'm the person who leveled a majority rogue build to 30. It's not free like conjuration caster, but it's not hard. But rogue is in a very bad spot. It's not good at all of the things rogues are supposed to be good at, bard far surpasses it now. Bard can solo quarterbreak, they are the best thieves. Bards can disguise better because they're a cha class that can buff their skills. Bards have their own scry ward. Bards can even cast rogue's cunning. As a player who hates bard RP but likes rogue RP, it makes me sad.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Waldo52 » Tue May 24, 2022 2:26 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:18 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 9:42 pm
Rogues are on a thin thread (no pun intended). I want to say we should revert the nerf to grenades from a while back but I'm not even sure rogue needs a buff. It's a skill heavy class with a lot of cookies, that still preserves situational burst damage windows sometimes and is very "abusive" by skilled players against unskilled players so I'm not quite sure where the fine tuning lays. I dont think Rogue has it fair when it comes to gear economy.
Due to Bards now having ALL skills as class skills, Bard is the superior skill monkey class.

This usually means the Bard will be picked over the Rogue in a group setting, as the Rogue has almost nothing to offer that the Bard already doesn't offer along with its Bard-only goodies.
I wish I could quote and respond to every one of you, but with time being an issue I literally rolled a d6 on this one.


It's true that bards are basically better rogues right now. Rogues have up-sides and I enjoy the feel of the class but we're objectively gimped bards who trade most of what makes that class valuable for two skill ranks on an interior list, some okayish grenades, a situational damage bonus and crippling strike. That damage bonus probably doesn't compare to summoning undead and crippling strike is generally less reliable than curse song, which by the way does a lot of other stuff too.

Edit:

Pardon the dramatic claim but the other class I'm thinking about lately for rogue comparisons is commoner. The great skill access with limited martial abilities. We're obviously better combatants, but it feels like we're somewhere between bard and commoner. It's a funny thought, and I'm proud to play rogues but it's also distressing.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Paint » Tue May 24, 2022 3:54 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:21 am
Hi, I'm the person who leveled a majority rogue build to 30. It's not free like conjuration caster, but it's not hard. But rogue is in a very bad spot. It's not good at all of the things rogues are supposed to be good at, bard far surpasses it now. Bard can solo quarterbreak, they are the best thieves. Bards can disguise better because they're a cha class that can buff their skills. Bards have their own scry ward. Bards can even cast rogue's cunning. As a player who hates bard RP but likes rogue RP, it makes me sad.
This is probably the best argument against the current state of rogues. If rogues aren't the best at the things that rogues are supposed to be the best at, why be a rogue at all?

Edit: I can't resist being chatty. I've never played a rogue on Arelith. My experience is entirely from the outside. Every time I've wanted to play a stealthy character with quarterbreaking skills, I've been dissuaded by it because someone'd tell me to just play a bard instead. The problem is, every time I want to play a bard, I want to play a battlebard, because I enjoy the fantasy of someone screaming into combat lyrically. (Judge me for it, please, I need someone to save me from this mental image.) I think the only thing that rogues have over bards right now is sneak attack, which is slick, and pretty great in a lot of situations, but it doesn't really make a rogue feel like a rogue on its own, you know? You have to contort your build in such an awkward way to make a rogue a spy that they become anemic in PVP/PVE, or you have to build a rogue so heavily towards PVP/PVE that they can't do rogue things.
Last edited by Paint on Tue May 24, 2022 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by La Villa Strangiato » Tue May 24, 2022 4:01 am

Playing a rogue has been a joy lately, and while I disagree that the class is bad, it is suffering from power creep next to the current powerbuilds of spellsword, paladin, bard, and shaman. I definitely agree that bard needs to have some of its skills sealed away, and that grenades need to do something a lot more useful.

Stealth bonuses and movement speed in city-areas, as someone mentioned prior, would be an excellent addition for rogue. There's already an unseen debuff to hide/move silently in city areas, so this would give rogue a nice sneak niche in the current meta.

I think a few extra feats for a deep rogue (20 up?) would be nice, especially since non-human rogues seem to be a bit starved for it.
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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Hazard » Tue May 24, 2022 4:16 am

Leveling a rogue to 30 is easy because leveling anything to 30 is easy now. Leveling is just very easy and fast.
I don't think getting to 30 as a rogue means anything. The class is in a very bad place.
Sure, theoretically you could beat others in a 1v1, but the difference is I need to pull some crazy, sweaty, wristbreaking, 200IQ plays to just beat someone who might left click on me and delete all my HP if I mess up once (just one example of many).

And when it comes to PvE, forget about it. Sure, you can build/gear/play a rogue to get through lots of cool PvE content. Technically.
While you spend an hour doing that, some jerk just sprints past while also killing everything without breaking a sweat. Better leave stealth so you can try to keep up/beg them to let you tag along.

I love the class fantasy of rogues. I actually even like how pathless they are atm, because it makes them versatile. My rogue can be so many things, in my imagination .. In the actual game though, they're just a crappy version of several things.

Rogues have crap AC (unless you go 1 hand+shield+IE, and wear gear that does nothing for all your rogue skills) but then you're pretty harmless and good for nothing but tanking. Might as well have been a dex WM at that point.
Rogues have crap AB.
Even their sneak damage, while good, ends up performing poorly because of the low AB.

I'd like to see some kind of buff given to rogues to ensure they are always the best at rogue stuff.
Like +1 for every 2 levels of rogue, to skills like Hide/MS, Open Lock, Pick Pocket.
Maybe even higher AB when leaving stealth, or an extra sneak die or two based on how deep you went into rogue.
Making grenades useful.
Stuff like that.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Waldo52 » Tue May 24, 2022 5:16 am

Hazard wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 4:16 am
Leveling a rogue to 30 is easy because leveling anything to 30 is easy now. Leveling is just very easy and fast.
I don't think getting to 30 as a rogue means anything. The class is in a very bad place.
Sure, theoretically you could beat others in a 1v1, but the difference is I need to pull some crazy, sweaty, wristbreaking, 200IQ plays to just beat someone who might left click on me and delete all my HP if I mess up once (just one example of many).
Very well put. I've been trying to say this for a while but you found the words.

Rogues do perform exceptionally well against lowish AC opponents if you plan like a chess grandmaster and don't fudge a single important throw of the dice.

I think the devs might want to consider weather this is a description of a legitimate battlefield role or just an underpowered class.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue May 24, 2022 6:39 am

Here's a crazy mad idea. Give rogue Discipline as a class skill.
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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Waldo52 » Tue May 24, 2022 6:55 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 6:39 am
Here's a crazy mad idea. Give rogue Discipline as a class skill.
I see the appeal of this. I also see the appeal in sticking to convention. Either way, the problems with the class go far beyond discipline.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Skarain » Tue May 24, 2022 7:39 am

Since we are in the subject of Rogues.... Not all Rogues are Thieves. It would be cool if you were able to pick another Language at level 7, to "opt out" of Thieves Cant if your character is not a Thief. Likewise, that would make those who DO take Thieves Cant to feel more values, as a proper language of thieves known only by those who actually practice (or have practiced) such trickery.

My Rogue/Cav/WM horserider wild elf makes no sense to speak Cant, but my petty halfling thief definitely does.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Preserver » Tue May 24, 2022 8:10 am

Hazard wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 4:16 am
Sure, theoretically you could beat others in a 1v1, but the difference is I need to pull some crazy, sweaty, wristbreaking, 200IQ plays to just beat someone who might left click on me and delete all my HP if I mess up once (just one example of many).
Now, I don't post very often in build and class balance discussions because I am bad at both, but this particular thing struck me (not negatively, but as a nice conversational trigger). Rogue is one my favourite classes so I am very interested in this thread.

Question being: is it necessarily a bad thing that the neighbourhood's friendly Paladin/Spellsword/Whatever can easily disintegrate a Rogue lest the Rogue pulls the 200IQ plays? For more clarity: I think that, rather than hope for changes to the Rogue that allow them to fit nicely into the competitive meta, it would be nice to have the Rogue fill an otherwise unfillable niche (both in PvE and PvP). Something that can make a player go "Okay I won't ever be able to easily PvP 1v1 with Rogue but...".

Could it be possible to establish an interesting or exciting playstyle of what Rogue is expected to do in PvP when performed at its best and that doesn't necessarily impact on the spectrum of damage? The way I see it, due to easy access to movement speed and E-Dodge, Rogue is in a good position to start working on damage avoidance if design goes that way... issue being that you cannot just do damage avoidance in PvP.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Eyeliner » Tue May 24, 2022 8:33 am

If it's even possible... speed up how quickly a rogue can lay down a trap. Being able to throw down a trap in combat or behind you when escaping would be a game changer.

They're also just annoying to set or disarm in general since they take so long (it really adds up)

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Waldo52 » Tue May 24, 2022 8:41 am

Preserver wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 8:10 am
Hazard wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 4:16 am
Sure, theoretically you could beat others in a 1v1, but the difference is I need to pull some crazy, sweaty, wristbreaking, 200IQ plays to just beat someone who might left click on me and delete all my HP if I mess up once (just one example of many).
Now, I don't post very often in build and class balance discussions because I am bad at both, but this particular thing struck me (not negatively, but as a nice conversational trigger). Rogue is one my favourite classes so I am very interested in this thread.

Question being: is it necessarily a bad thing that the neighbourhood's friendly Paladin/Spellsword/Whatever can easily disintegrate a Rogue lest the Rogue pulls the 200IQ plays? For more clarity: I think that, rather than hope for changes to the Rogue that allow them to fit nicely into the competitive meta, it would be nice to have the Rogue fill an otherwise unfillable niche (both in PvE and PvP). Something that can make a player go "Okay I won't ever be able to easily PvP 1v1 with Rogue but...".

Could it be possible to establish an interesting or exciting playstyle of what Rogue is expected to do in PvP when performed at its best and that doesn't necessarily impact on the spectrum of damage? The way I see it, due to easy access to movement speed and E-Dodge, Rogue is in a good position to start working on damage avoidance if design goes that way... issue being that you cannot just do damage avoidance in PvP.
The idea that rogues actually should be at a disadvantage unless played masterfully is not entirely without merit, but there's the matter of extent. Rogues will reliably die to a stiff breeze, and anyone with banditry or PvP in mind has to reconcile his role play with constant visits to Kelemvor's Wall, well beyond what another evil chatter would experience. This is a problem.

I'm also not a big fan of this defensive rogue idea. A rogue jumping from the shadows and ominously dodging your blows? *Giggles* I'm not against these types of builds but I wouldn't exactly love it if they came to typify the class.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by I will never sleep » Tue May 24, 2022 1:06 pm

It's been relegated to a dip class. I've played a deep rogue for the better part of 2 years, and I would argue that the class is, in fact, bad. Every time I build one I walk away frustrated.

They suffer from a myriad of issues that is sort of casts a wider net.

Incredible feat starvation unless fighter is taken. This certainly limits their building options. I wouldn't be surprised if >95% of the rogues on the server are rogue/fighter or rogue/cot. I've tried to break away from this many times but there just simply aren't enough feats.

Dex is in a bad place overall and not even that much more ac than a strength build, with the only difference being you might have epic dodge.

Sneak attacks are one of the most inconsistent ways of doing damage out there and definitely has a much higher burden of execution in pvp than basically anything else.

The damage is absolutely pitiful even if your attacks are landing unless you go with assassin (which is locked behind an application). And funnily enough, the best assassin builds? Don't even have a single rogue level. You could play a strength rogue, which has some funny applications, but why would you instead of the myriad of other better options for combat at that point?

People chugging heal/cure crit wounds potions are NOT flatfooted and the low AB even pumped makes knockdown a sour prospect. To beat a rogue all you have to do is stand there and chug.

There was a time 2-3 years ago during the Monk Meta that rogue was fairly popular- due to spamming touch attacks when everyone had turbo high AC, so it was easier than just hitting them normally. The grenades used to be decent and a reason to be deep rogue. But the damage was cut in half some time ago and since then they have been incredibly mediocre. The best thing rogues have that is unique to rogues is +10 move silently and crippling strike. That is sad.


--


Their mediocrity in their character sheet and straight up combat would honestly be fine if this was not the case:
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:21 am
But rogue is in a very bad spot. It's not good at all of the things rogues are supposed to be good at, bard far surpasses it now. Bard can solo quarterbreak, they are the best thieves. Bards can disguise better because they're a cha class that can buff their skills. Bards have their own scry ward. Bards can even cast rogue's cunning.
Rogue was never meant to be the Big Number class, certainly- but at the moment they forego specialization just to do nothing well. They don't even interact with the world around them in any way better than a bard or even just a wizard can (in fact, they are much, much worse). I've yet to find a truly elegant solution to this, but I, too have thought along similar lines something like this:
Hazard wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 4:16 am
I'd like to see some kind of buff given to rogues to ensure they are always the best at rogue stuff.
Like +1 for every 2 levels of rogue, to skills like Hide/MS, Open Lock, Pick Pocket.
Making grenades useful.
Even if such a solution feels like just giving them a poor man's bard song, they pretty much need it if they're ever going to compete with bard. Even better, more types of grenades and rogue tools that accomplish this. But seeing as bard being the only build capable of solo quarterbreaking is a touchy topic, I doubt we'll see this.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue May 24, 2022 1:56 pm

I think Rogues could use a grenade that is useful in a group. That's about it.

I get the thought process that rogues have lost something now that other classes can do what they can do in pve, in particular when it comes to traps and locks, but really rogues did nothing before that save trail along until the group got to the really tough traps that everyone knows exists and then someone says "send in the rogue!". Which is fine I guess, unless you don't have a rogue in your group.

As for pvp, rogue is still absurdly powerful. Corner stealthing is borderline busted unless your opponent is a dedicated spotter, and this was only enhanced by the short duration of true seeing combined with the speed boost when moving in stealth, which are custom to arelith. In group pvp, its even stronger since its easy to get lost in the commotion and take down the opponents wizard or bard in a quick flash. If you boost them too much, then you have the same situation you have with bard now where people are realizing how powerful they can be when used right only instead of being nerfed from vanilla (like bard is) they are actually stronger then vanilla.

I could see giving them a few qol boosts like a bonus to sail or something, or maybe paths that forces you to trade x for y to be stronger in the rogue kit. But if the problem is power creep, the answer is never more power creep.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Shadowy Reality » Tue May 24, 2022 2:02 pm

The cookies Rogue got some years ago were and still are great additions, all of them. But if you look at it from a pragmatic point of view, it's just not that great compared to other things these days.

PvE wise they are fine, so long as they have someone else on the party, but PvE isn't really a good standpoint for class balancing.
  • Their AB is lower than other melee builds
  • Their damage output even with sneak attacks is about on par with Strength meleers
  • Their AC is usually slightly higher, but a lot of it is lost if flat footed
  • They get access to Epic Dodge but the feat is sort of a joke, as someone can use KD on their lower AB attacks to 'expend' your epic dodge even though their attack would miss
  • You have to go Dex since many of your cookies work off this, so your Discipline even with ESF is still well within knockdown range.
And I am sure there are more issues.

Rogues aren't a power house in PvP, if your opponent is incompetent they are about as good as your usual cookie weaponmaster, if your opponents know what they are doing then a lot of your kit is just nullified. And I am not convinced the grenades, or stealth movement make up for that.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue May 24, 2022 2:23 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 2:02 pm
The cookies Rogue got some years ago were and still are great additions, all of them. But if you look at it from a pragmatic point of view, it's just not that great compared to other things these days.

PvE wise they are fine, so long as they have someone else on the party, but PvE isn't really a good standpoint for class balancing.
  • Their AB is lower than other melee builds
    Not as much as they are in vanilla, rogues get bonuses to ab and are probably the class that makes the best use of ts potions
  • Their damage output even with sneak attacks is about on par with Strength meleers
    This is probably accurate, but because they are flanking when they sneak attack they get +2 ab. Combine kd with a true strike and chances are you get the builds you are looking to get before they get up too.
  • Their AC is usually slightly higher, but a lot of it is lost if flat footed
    You might want to read up on what uncanny dodge does, a feat they get for free.
  • They get access to Epic Dodge but the feat is sort of a joke, as someone can use KD on their lower AB attacks to 'expend' your epic dodge even though their attack would miss
    I had no idea that this was true, but even if it is E-dodge still seems to be considered one of the premium feats so there has to be more to it in practice.
  • You have to go Dex since many of your cookies work off this, so your Discipline even with ESF is still well within knockdown range.
    So what you are saying is I can go all in on dex and have it count toward my ab and ac, and with the way damage can be stacked on arelith I can at least be respectable toe to toe. Not sure why this is on the list.
And I am sure there are more issues.

Rogues aren't a power house in PvP, if your opponent is incompetent they are about as good as your usual cookie weaponmaster, if your opponents know what they are doing then a lot of your kit is just nullified. And I am not convinced the grenades, or stealth movement make up for that.
I bolded and underlined my responses to your list within your list, sorry if it looks ugly this is an experiment of a post!

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Waldo52 » Tue May 24, 2022 6:00 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 2:23 pm
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 2:02 pm
The cookies Rogue got some years ago were and still are great additions, all of them. But if you look at it from a pragmatic point of view, it's just not that great compared to other things these days.

PvE wise they are fine, so long as they have someone else on the party, but PvE isn't really a good standpoint for class balancing.
  • Their AB is lower than other melee builds
    Not as much as they are in vanilla, rogues get bonuses to ab and are probably the class that makes the best use of ts potions
  • Their damage output even with sneak attacks is about on par with Strength meleers
    This is probably accurate, but because they are flanking when they sneak attack they get +2 ab. Combine kd with a true strike and chances are you get the builds you are looking to get before they get up too.
  • Their AC is usually slightly higher, but a lot of it is lost if flat footed
    You might want to read up on what uncanny dodge does, a feat they get for free.
  • They get access to Epic Dodge but the feat is sort of a joke, as someone can use KD on their lower AB attacks to 'expend' your epic dodge even though their attack would miss
    I had no idea that this was true, but even if it is E-dodge still seems to be considered one of the premium feats so there has to be more to it in practice.
  • You have to go Dex since many of your cookies work off this, so your Discipline even with ESF is still well within knockdown range.
    So what you are saying is I can go all in on dex and have it count toward my ab and ac, and with the way damage can be stacked on arelith I can at least be respectable toe to toe. Not sure why this is on the list.
And I am sure there are more issues.

Rogues aren't a power house in PvP, if your opponent is incompetent they are about as good as your usual cookie weaponmaster, if your opponents know what they are doing then a lot of your kit is just nullified. And I am not convinced the grenades, or stealth movement make up for that.
I bolded and underlined my responses to your list within your list, sorry if it looks ugly this is an experiment of a post!
You have some valid points but bear in mind that anyone can use a true strike potion. A barbarian doing knockdown/true strike is much more accurate and lethal, you're probably not getting up.

Uncanny dodge is good, epic dodge is incredible. But there are much more competent classes out there that get the same feats. Epic dodge is part of why monks are so defensively overpowered, but it's more of a critical life support/damage control feature for rogue players that keeps the class playable.

You treat Dex to AC and AB like it's some wonderful treasure trove. This really isn't keeping us "toe to toe", the class is struggling. Our AB is at the bottom of the barrel the turn after you strike from stealth, barring flat footing or special circumstances. Above average AC (not spectacular AC, mind you!) and epic dodge doesn't help you much when your HP blows, and that's IF you have the feat economy for toughness. Discipline is also a chronic issue.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by -XXX- » Tue May 24, 2022 6:16 pm

Attainining ~70 Discipline is a challenge for everybody (even STR builds), not just rogues.

IMO gear is probably the most awkward thing about rogues. People seem to be intuitively gearing for stealth, but that means sacrificing something else.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by TurningLeaf » Tue May 24, 2022 6:58 pm

No UMD way to get Divine Power on Arelith hurts rogue most of all I think.

Still one rogue may be meh but two rogues is amazing, due to NWN AI.

Are we doing rogue dream lists? A suicidal clockwork henchman thing that is crafted from a trap, carried as an item then spawned by activation. When encountering hostiles it runs up and if it gets close the "trap", having now been turned into an ability of the henchman, activates and destroys the henchman in the process.

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Re: Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Wed May 25, 2022 12:33 am

Waldo52 wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 6:00 pm
said some stuff I snipped for aesthetics, read it above!
I didn't mean to imply that a rogue could stand up toe to toe with a melee class or was as good at the charge kill as a melee class. I just don't think that's a bad thing. Rogues in the right hands can win just about any encounter as long as they are patient enough to use hit and run tactics and don't get really unlucky. That discipline deficit is about the only chance a traditional melee class has to beat them.

Now does that mean they can't get some love in the form of kits? No, I could see a world where a more fighter style rogue and a stealth rogue and a skill rogue could all get boosts to what they do best at a cost to other things. But just boosting rogues any more than Arelith already has is dangerous.

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