Rogues are in a seriously bad spot

[seethings]

I think its a shame they don't have their own specialty...as others have commented the Bard now covers alot

On top of that the freely available wands of knock and what have you...

and sneak attack used to be a thing of theirs, now widely available in other classes

[Skarain]

Sneak Attack mechanic is by most part fine. Sure, it requires tricky play to utilize or an ally, but its not bad by any means. AC creep has been a thing that hurts Rogue with their 3/4 BAB, but I don't think the satisfying solution would involve increasing AB. If you play a Deep Rogue, thematically it will feel a lot more rewarding if your victory come through the use of your specialized tools and cunning tactics. Fighting dirty, so to say.

Taunt by range and not breaking Stealth for the Rogue might be a neat ribbon for the Rogue, "Expose Weakness" or somesuch. Would require some extra time to setup, but allow then to tackle more durable foes and try to take them down before the enemy can adjust, likely using other tools to support.

That and grenade improvements/balance adjustments, bringing a grater level of utility to them.

Combat things aside, Rogue is a skill monkey. While Bard is a skill monkey who excells at buffing others, Rogue are meant to be the experts in their field. Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus giving double the benefit as Soft bonus (such as (Epic Skill Focus: +10 hard ranks, +10 soft ranks, or +5 hard, +5 soft for the regular Skill Focus) could help to make Deep Rogues relevant.

The latest doesnt help a Rogues feat starvation, but would allow them to specialize in their choosen field(s) at the cost of raw combat potential. I think that would be a fair trade-off.

[Waldo52]

Sneak Attack mechanic is by most part fine. Sure, it requires tricky play to utilize or an ally, but its not bad by any means. AC creep has been a thing that hurts Rogue with their 3/4 BAB, but I don't think the satisfying solution would involve increasing AB. If you play a Deep Rogue, thematically it will feel a lot more rewarding if your victory come through the use of your specialized tools and cunning tactics. Fighting dirty, so to say.

Taunt by range and not breaking Stealth for the Rogue might be a neat ribbon for the Rogue, "Expose Weakness" or somesuch. Would require some extra time to setup, but allow then to tackle more durable foes and try to take them down before the enemy can adjust, likely using other tools to support.

That and grenade improvements/balance adjustments, bringing a grater level of utility to them.

Combat things aside, Rogue is a skill monkey. While Bard is a skill monkey who excells at buffing others, Rogue are meant to be the experts in their field. Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus giving double the benefit as Soft bonus (such as (Epic Skill Focus: +10 hard ranks, +10 soft ranks, or +5 hard, +5 soft for the regular Skill Focus) could help to make Deep Rogues relevant.

The latest doesnt help a Rogues feat starvation, but would allow them to specialize in their choosen field(s) at the cost of raw combat potential. I think that would be a fair trade-off.

I'll admit to experiencing a certain adrenaline rush when a plan goes off just perfectly, but I wouldn't go as far as to say we should be denied a little AB bump for the purpose of keeping things difficult and interesting. You acknowledge AC creep is real and we walk around struggling to hit things.

I do like your taunt and skill focus ideas though, and agree with you on grenades.

I'm also upset about our discipline/gear situation. I think I'll update the original post.