Rogues are in a seriously bad spot
Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 8:51 pm
There have been so many comprehensive changes in the past few months. Just look at paladins, blackguards, warlocks, shaman synergies, bards, clerics, spellswords, druids, rangers etc. I like a lot of what I see but there's a sort of power creep setting in, and the losers of Arelith are looking worse by comparison every day. Sadly as much as I love the class, rogues are feeling pretty losery of late.
Before I give specific feedback I have to admit that I've heard from a few forum-goers who claim to have soloed rogues to 30, saying it was easy. I'm anticipating a few of these types of responses so I'll just throw in a bit about my own rogue experience: after playing regularly on a rogue for about a year I made a shaman to level with my friend. I was not optimizing or using appropriate gear and at times was practically trying to get killed.
The rogue needed an ally to tackle level appropriate content. The only alternative was to spend 2-4+ thousand gold on traps, wards, healing and grenades. At level 20 a level 20 writ could take hours and I'd likely die in the attempt.
The shaman was different. He was a tribal barbarian dip who walked into battle with leather armor (because it looked cool) and a whip he was not proficient in (because it looked cool). I took the evocation spell focus feats because damage spells are fun and used slightly more direct damage spells than I should've. While his gear was pathetic and half of his decisions were made around the rule of cool, the dude could single hamdedly trivialize writs by simply existing with summons+tribals+magic.
Yes, as a rogue player I do take some perverse pride in playing on hard mode. But there's a big difference between having a hard time due to a steep learning curve and having a VERY hard time because your class is mechanically so incredibly inferior.
With my experience and general opinion out of the way I'll just get to my list of feedback items:
1) Grenades seem weak.
Brilliant system. i love the pseudo-artificer feel, and the way rogues seem to be the tech nerds of the server. However the highest attainable DCs are not so great, flashbangs are absurdly pricey, the whole system needs to be dialed up a bit.
Also while I do hear good things about acid/fire bombs, upper echelon consumable grenades are expensive. Without paths, feats, meaningful grenade improvement options or a simple damage increase across the board, this whole Arelith custom system feels under utilized.
2) Strength Rogues are cool, but most of what this server has given to rogues works against them
Weapon finesse as a free feat is a godsend for most rogues, as are Lightly Armored and grenade access. But these reforms do very little for a beefy thug.
3) Archer rogues have it hard too
Last time I checked, crippling strike does not effect ranged weapons. Poison arrows exist, but it's much easier to smear a melee weapon with poison. Knockdown is not an option so landing sneaks is that much harder. Rangers get all their core ranged feats per free, plus called shot. Ranged rogues feel like they're left holding an empty bag.
4) invisible blades are incredibly cool, but ironically don't serve rogues as well as other classes
While I'm about to start playing one for flavor reasons and a general change of pace, I mostly hear about IB as a good dip for barbarians and rangers. This PrC is gated behind a feat tax, which is usually q pretty demanding thing for a rogue. This often limits your ability to do two weapon fighting, but things are just as bad if you want to use a shield as neither class is proficient. Things would be a little better if IB granted additional sneak attack damage or was generally a little stronger.
5) Rogues have generally faced trouble with their signature skills given PvP rule reforms.
People now have to know you've set them to hostile when you pickpocket them. I've often set traps with the intention of setting an enemy to hostile, only to have the enemy in question step on the trap during RP and having it sent to my pocket. I'm not going to criticize these changes, as these are complex discussions in and of themselves and settled matters anyway.
6) The class is feat starved
Two weapon fighting and archery feats are a fundamental part of many rogue builds. I love the specialized nature of rogue bonus feats but we're a class with a very combat oriented nature and we don't get any additional combat feats.
7) Rogues are glass cannons that feel more glass than cannon.
Sneak attack is good, but it's situational AND other classes blow us out of the water in terms of raw damage even in good circumstances. This wouldn't be an issue if our grenades and abilities in general gave us more to work with. But we're tricky damage dealers with mediocre tricks and mediocre damage.
8) No paths
Stealth god, master of disguise, offensive warrior, brawny thug, grenade lobber, etc. Rogues can be all this and more but without path support everybody seems to be doing better than us.
I realize that much of this has been stated previously by myself and others, but I felt that in the context of all these recent class upgrades we needed a general rogue feedback thread. We're hurting.
9) (EDIT) No synergies
Tribal barbarian shamans. Monk shamans. Ranger shamans. Bard warlocks. Hexblade warlocks. Pale master warlocks. Bard clerics. There are a lot of new synergies. I don't think that lack of synergies is necessarily a problem or that synergy should be some entitlement for every class, but rogues are drowning and synergy is like a lifeguard for those who are already floating fine.
Getting some paladin oath abilities or ranger toys with modest multiclass investment wouldn't exactly save us, but seeing these goodies proliferating through the server just rubs in how neglected we are. In fact, we have the opposite of synergy, we have utter dependence on classes like fighter, ranger and (insert divine here) for our basic needs. Access to discipline and a fourth attack are incredibly important, but this reduces the potency of our sneak attack and guts our skill points to the extent where even our skill point advantage over bards becomes nominal.
10) {EDIT} Gear and Discipline
Gearing a rogue is hell. We tend to need dexterity, Con and strength in a big way. Divine builds need charisma. At the same time we have a reputation for being a skilly class. We also have a huge need for discipline. While I know everyone needs disc. to some extent and even many wizards will even dip for it, rogues are at a major impasse.
There are a lot of gear nerds on these boards, so feel free to correct me but it seems almost impossible to build a gear set that shores up discipline to adequate levels, buffs relevant stats to the needed amounts and has any wiggle room for those signature rogue skills. Even with a good helm + displacer beast cloak + rogue leathers or equivalent and everything else being god tier basin stuff with millions spent on runes and 5% rolls it's extremely difficult to plan, let alone do.
I think we need more class specific (or just highly compatible) items that are actually craftable or possible to find.
Before I give specific feedback I have to admit that I've heard from a few forum-goers who claim to have soloed rogues to 30, saying it was easy. I'm anticipating a few of these types of responses so I'll just throw in a bit about my own rogue experience: after playing regularly on a rogue for about a year I made a shaman to level with my friend. I was not optimizing or using appropriate gear and at times was practically trying to get killed.
The rogue needed an ally to tackle level appropriate content. The only alternative was to spend 2-4+ thousand gold on traps, wards, healing and grenades. At level 20 a level 20 writ could take hours and I'd likely die in the attempt.
The shaman was different. He was a tribal barbarian dip who walked into battle with leather armor (because it looked cool) and a whip he was not proficient in (because it looked cool). I took the evocation spell focus feats because damage spells are fun and used slightly more direct damage spells than I should've. While his gear was pathetic and half of his decisions were made around the rule of cool, the dude could single hamdedly trivialize writs by simply existing with summons+tribals+magic.
Yes, as a rogue player I do take some perverse pride in playing on hard mode. But there's a big difference between having a hard time due to a steep learning curve and having a VERY hard time because your class is mechanically so incredibly inferior.
With my experience and general opinion out of the way I'll just get to my list of feedback items:
1) Grenades seem weak.
Brilliant system. i love the pseudo-artificer feel, and the way rogues seem to be the tech nerds of the server. However the highest attainable DCs are not so great, flashbangs are absurdly pricey, the whole system needs to be dialed up a bit.
Also while I do hear good things about acid/fire bombs, upper echelon consumable grenades are expensive. Without paths, feats, meaningful grenade improvement options or a simple damage increase across the board, this whole Arelith custom system feels under utilized.
2) Strength Rogues are cool, but most of what this server has given to rogues works against them
Weapon finesse as a free feat is a godsend for most rogues, as are Lightly Armored and grenade access. But these reforms do very little for a beefy thug.
3) Archer rogues have it hard too
Last time I checked, crippling strike does not effect ranged weapons. Poison arrows exist, but it's much easier to smear a melee weapon with poison. Knockdown is not an option so landing sneaks is that much harder. Rangers get all their core ranged feats per free, plus called shot. Ranged rogues feel like they're left holding an empty bag.
4) invisible blades are incredibly cool, but ironically don't serve rogues as well as other classes
While I'm about to start playing one for flavor reasons and a general change of pace, I mostly hear about IB as a good dip for barbarians and rangers. This PrC is gated behind a feat tax, which is usually q pretty demanding thing for a rogue. This often limits your ability to do two weapon fighting, but things are just as bad if you want to use a shield as neither class is proficient. Things would be a little better if IB granted additional sneak attack damage or was generally a little stronger.
5) Rogues have generally faced trouble with their signature skills given PvP rule reforms.
People now have to know you've set them to hostile when you pickpocket them. I've often set traps with the intention of setting an enemy to hostile, only to have the enemy in question step on the trap during RP and having it sent to my pocket. I'm not going to criticize these changes, as these are complex discussions in and of themselves and settled matters anyway.
6) The class is feat starved
Two weapon fighting and archery feats are a fundamental part of many rogue builds. I love the specialized nature of rogue bonus feats but we're a class with a very combat oriented nature and we don't get any additional combat feats.
7) Rogues are glass cannons that feel more glass than cannon.
Sneak attack is good, but it's situational AND other classes blow us out of the water in terms of raw damage even in good circumstances. This wouldn't be an issue if our grenades and abilities in general gave us more to work with. But we're tricky damage dealers with mediocre tricks and mediocre damage.
8) No paths
Stealth god, master of disguise, offensive warrior, brawny thug, grenade lobber, etc. Rogues can be all this and more but without path support everybody seems to be doing better than us.
I realize that much of this has been stated previously by myself and others, but I felt that in the context of all these recent class upgrades we needed a general rogue feedback thread. We're hurting.
9) (EDIT) No synergies
Tribal barbarian shamans. Monk shamans. Ranger shamans. Bard warlocks. Hexblade warlocks. Pale master warlocks. Bard clerics. There are a lot of new synergies. I don't think that lack of synergies is necessarily a problem or that synergy should be some entitlement for every class, but rogues are drowning and synergy is like a lifeguard for those who are already floating fine.
Getting some paladin oath abilities or ranger toys with modest multiclass investment wouldn't exactly save us, but seeing these goodies proliferating through the server just rubs in how neglected we are. In fact, we have the opposite of synergy, we have utter dependence on classes like fighter, ranger and (insert divine here) for our basic needs. Access to discipline and a fourth attack are incredibly important, but this reduces the potency of our sneak attack and guts our skill points to the extent where even our skill point advantage over bards becomes nominal.
10) {EDIT} Gear and Discipline
Gearing a rogue is hell. We tend to need dexterity, Con and strength in a big way. Divine builds need charisma. At the same time we have a reputation for being a skilly class. We also have a huge need for discipline. While I know everyone needs disc. to some extent and even many wizards will even dip for it, rogues are at a major impasse.
There are a lot of gear nerds on these boards, so feel free to correct me but it seems almost impossible to build a gear set that shores up discipline to adequate levels, buffs relevant stats to the needed amounts and has any wiggle room for those signature rogue skills. Even with a good helm + displacer beast cloak + rogue leathers or equivalent and everything else being god tier basin stuff with millions spent on runes and 5% rolls it's extremely difficult to plan, let alone do.
I think we need more class specific (or just highly compatible) items that are actually craftable or possible to find.