Shamans and Loremaster

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Paint
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Shamans and Loremaster

Post by Paint » Tue May 24, 2022 9:05 am

I really hate to do this because I'm benefitting from this right now but uh. I figure I might as well get it out there. If you go 20 Shaman/5 Loremaster/5 X, your CL ends up as 29. Th-this is. Really, really good. I'm not sure if it's the best shaman build out there or anything like this, but it means that you can take a martial dip in pre-epics, finish it in epics for the discipline, get access to a ton of loremaster goodies, have a ton more skillpoints, and be slightly better for it than if you went Shaman 25/x 5.(Your CL would be 28.) The only thing you sacrifice is one 9th level spell known. Which -can- be a big deal, but I don't know if it's a big enough sacrifice.

I feel like this needs to be pointed out specifically because I think that the synergy is too strong. And again, my character is currently benefitting from it.

Kenji I am sorry I really love this class I swear.

Edit: Math because math.

Starting CL is 20 from Shaman.
+2 from Loremaster dip's first two levels due to Shaman Synergy
+2 from x dip's first two levels due to Shaman Synergy
+3 from Loremaster dip because that's how it functions.
So far we are at 27.
For each 3 levels of non-shaman class you have after the first two, you gain an additional 1 Cl.
+1 from Loremaster
+1 from x.
We end up at 29.

I -did- test this on PGCC.

Edit 2: I forgot epic spells exist. You can't take epic spells with this setup so. That's kind of a Big Deal.

Edit 3: Upon further elaboration this might not be as Strong as I thought it was. Despite this, I'm leaving this post up as a testament to my foolishness, or maybe somebody might find something weird and exploity about this anyways.

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Re: Shamans and Loremaster

Post by Ping14 » Tue May 24, 2022 10:27 am

True, it is really really good.
Only getting dispelled by high level content dungeon bosses and dedicated mages.
Breach is another thing though.

Also, the shaman NPCs around are much much more deadly with access to mass haste, breach and SR, and a thematic offensive spells that deals respectable damage that pierces SR of Headband of Protection. Which is a sign of how much better it has become since the changes.

Shaman now sits from the low midtier to the higher mid or even lower high tier of base classes. The only thing that is holding it back is its not a CHA based character.
The good thing about it is class diversity. It is by far the most flexible primary class that can break the min max levels of multiclassing. You can stop at 18 Shaman just for the spells, then leave the 12 for other classes. Leaving you with 18 + 2 + 2 (fully multiclassed) + 2 or 3, that's 24-25 caster level.

The Perma Divine Power AB is also a thing. Keep majority of Shaman levels (16+) and you get the boon of an additional 4 soft AB per attack (this is under the assumption that you are building towards the 4ApR mark).

Performance in PVP? It doesn't have the Divine Shield + Improve expertise shenanigans for AC tanking (but can multiclass to monk + Imp expertise), has low reflex saves most of the time. The malus on Blood Frenzy is spot on, on the reflex save and AC as it is the lowest of scores on the typical shaman... making it hurt real bad when its hit/failed a save.

PVM? Its really high up there. Access to planar conduit is a thing now for shamans, and the difference is night and day. It covers most of the weaknesses a shaman has (lack of damage output, lack of AC and damage reductions). Previously the shaman needs to dip to a class which can select it at Epic, now it just has more freedom to do so.

The changes made gives it a new experience to play. Its like a cleric without the wind-up. Its like a watered down barbarian. Its a fighter but also a support caster. The experience is great for someone who is used to playing a gish with an upside of extra caster levels.

What it enables (Just did quick math, hence CL computation may be off):
1. Shaman 18 / Monk 6 / Fighter 6 - Full arsenal of WIS casting from shaman with full BAB, 8ApR (Haste + Flurry), and +13 damage to fist (Epic weapon spec + Imp Ki Strike 4), high AC, 25 CL. Closest to the Way of the Four Elements monk you can get. (Inferno, Flesh to Stone, Frost Shield, SoV as representative offensive elements you can pick)
2. Shaman 23 / Ranger 4 / Barbarian 3 - Can go path of archer via ranger, dip in zen archery, go throwing weapons. Damage stacking that can do high 30 to mid 40s damage on average on range at 6ApR reaching max AB of low 50s fully buffed. 28CL. Epic spells and focuses. Barbarian and Ranger boons to 18.
3. Shaman 20 / LM 5 / Ranger 5 - Caster with melee capability (can go TWF route). Get greater spell focus from ranger "favored enemies". Have LM CL stacking. Full BAB, 5ApR on Melee. Ranger boons to 18. 29 CL.

If you're a shaman, you're most likely to keep your wards most than other multiclassed toons, which is really really great. Full mundane can also achieve it but would need Lore and UMD. Full casters are still the best at keeping wards. Shaman breaks that "rule" in investing in either full mundane or caster to have more resistant wards. Changes are great (and mostly buffs), but as for its power level, remains to be seen when more people try it on its current state.

Toning it down to 1 CL on first multiclass may also not hurt much but still enable some new class combinations playable.

That said about the shaman, its cousin, the favored soul is now alone on that low mid tier class, FS does have the same-ish interaction with cloistered cleric in terms of CL. But I would pick shaman everytime when I'm asked to pick between the two just because of class diversity and its CL bonus.

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Re: Shamans and Loremaster

Post by Quidix » Tue May 24, 2022 4:12 pm

Worth emphasizing that compared to 27 Sha / 3 Monk you effectively lose 3 feats (2 epic class feats and forced to take SF: Lore) - that's not a small sacrifice for what is largely LM RP goodies. I say this as someone playing a 27 Sha / 3 Monk and considered going 21 Sha / 4 M / 5 LM.

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Re: Shamans and Loremaster

Post by Kenji » Tue May 24, 2022 8:43 pm

I decided to keep Shaman/LM synergy as is instead of removing the CL scaling like what I did with Harper/Zhent dips.

The reasoning goes as noted by Quidix, that Loremaster provides different kinds of bonuses at the cost of those (pre-)epic feats, whereas Harper/Zhent "refunds" those prerequisite feats as epic feats.

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Re: Shamans and Loremaster

Post by Paint » Wed May 25, 2022 3:06 am

Upon further testing and theorycrafting, though it feels really good and nice, and is definitely some incredible QOL, I can't break anything with it, so yeah. My original point was a knee-jerk reaction, and the logic behind keeping the synergy as is makes sense.

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Re: Shamans and Loremaster

Post by magistrasa » Wed May 25, 2022 11:44 am

At risk of sounding like I'm saying "no fun allowed," I do just want to comment that I feel like Loremaster is kinda too good, in a way that I have a hard time articulating. Towards OP's point, it's just an extremely enticing option for every variety of caster - for the simple and obvious reason that Loremasters get access to more roleplay, simply by virtue of being a Loremaster. You get free languages, you get to scry and know when you're scried, you can project image for free messengers, or whatever other ESF cookie you might want, on top of everything else the class gets. Don't get me wrong, I like it, but I think I like it too much. I kinda wish that Loremaster counterfeit cookies were inferior to the legit ESF cookies in some way. Like, you can scry, but you can't tell if you're being scried. You can project image, but only to people on the same server. You can create portal, but it just sends everyone to their respawn point. You can yoink, but... I dunno, people take damage when they accept? (I'm just brainstorming out loud here, I'm sure better options would be possible.) And maybe instead of getting free languages, you just get a bonus to the rate at which you learn languages, and an extra language possible to learn. And maybe you can learn languages without books, which would open up access to learning those secret languages!

Obviously I'm taking this in a VERY different direction from the OP (and in hindsight maybe this should be a different thread entirely), but I agree with the general sense that Loremaster is really, really good, even if not "broken" in PvP. I'd be very curious to see how many Loremasters there are on the server, because anecdotally, I see it in around half the people I run into. And that other half might just be keeping it a secret. I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing, because it's genuinely great that the roleplay is made accessible to people - but I guess I just feel weird about the fact that the class seems so prolific, in a world that is enriched by diversity. At the end of the day, this is a roleplay server, and the class that opens up more options for roleplay is going to be a really desirable class. As the Greek Philosopher Syndrome once said, "When everyone's a Loremaster, no one will be."

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Re: Shamans and Loremaster

Post by Rei_Jin » Wed May 25, 2022 12:57 pm

At the risk of sounding salty, why does the Shaman get this bonus when no other spellcasting class does?

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Re: Shamans and Loremaster

Post by Kenji » Wed May 25, 2022 6:14 pm

Rei_Jin wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 12:57 pm
At the risk of sounding salty, why does the Shaman get this bonus when no other spellcasting class does?
To speed up the balance, design, discussion, and coding process, one can always ask Irongron to join the team and help out.

Edit: To address the actual question - precedence should not and does not impact design.

We can ask the same question in regards to why Warlocks get to have infinicast of touch attacks, why Clerics get domains, why Rangers get to be full BAB and have animal companions, why X class is the only one to have Y feature.

Because that's what defines them. And now shaman's identity is defined through various synergies that no other full casters have.
Last edited by Kenji on Wed May 25, 2022 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shamans and Loremaster

Post by Kenji » Wed May 25, 2022 9:12 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 11:44 am
At risk of sounding like I'm saying "no fun allowed," I do just want to comment that I feel like Loremaster is kinda too good, in a way that I have a hard time articulating. Towards OP's point, it's just an extremely enticing option for every variety of caster - for the simple and obvious reason that Loremasters get access to more roleplay, simply by virtue of being a Loremaster. You get free languages, you get to scry and know when you're scried, you can project image for free messengers, or whatever other ESF cookie you might want, on top of everything else the class gets. Don't get me wrong, I like it, but I think I like it too much. I kinda wish that Loremaster counterfeit cookies were inferior to the legit ESF cookies in some way. Like, you can scry, but you can't tell if you're being scried. You can project image, but only to people on the same server. You can create portal, but it just sends everyone to their respawn point. You can yoink, but... I dunno, people take damage when they accept? (I'm just brainstorming out loud here, I'm sure better options would be possible.) And maybe instead of getting free languages, you just get a bonus to the rate at which you learn languages, and an extra language possible to learn. And maybe you can learn languages without books, which would open up access to learning those secret languages!

Obviously I'm taking this in a VERY different direction from the OP (and in hindsight maybe this should be a different thread entirely), but I agree with the general sense that Loremaster is really, really good, even if not "broken" in PvP. I'd be very curious to see how many Loremasters there are on the server, because anecdotally, I see it in around half the people I run into. And that other half might just be keeping it a secret. I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing, because it's genuinely great that the roleplay is made accessible to people - but I guess I just feel weird about the fact that the class seems so prolific, in a world that is enriched by diversity. At the end of the day, this is a roleplay server, and the class that opens up more options for roleplay is going to be a really desirable class. As the Greek Philosopher Syndrome once said, "When everyone's a Loremaster, no one will be."
Clerics faced the same dilemma before all the path and domain changes. One can easily bet they were most, if not all, travel/trickery or travel/death - maybe travel/war from time to time, even if their respective RP approaches are different. Mechanically their functions were all homogeneous to an extent.

Before the Loremaster patch, from all being tutors to having to make choices, the problem of all Loremasters being language tutors is apparent, as you pointed out now. Loremaster needs a push in the same direction, much like what Clerics got. Their cookies don't need a nerf, but they need more options than they have now. Only then will we see both the RP and function of Loremasters enjoy the diversity as clerics do now.

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