Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

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Jagel
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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Jagel » Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:49 pm

I’m just sadface that this wasn’t around when Justin Gaskell walked the island. Would have been perfect…

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Hinty » Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:10 pm

First thoughts and instinctive reactions follow.

I'll not get into the mechanics of the class, that is a path that involved too much mathematical theory crafting and I don't want that headache. I would rather address the Lore and the classes place in the world.

I agree that the Divine/Nondivine split is flawed. FR lore has so many gods that almost any cause can be a divinely inspired and backed one. Personally I would opt for a system where you choose a cause and then choose if it is divine or mundane, but this would involve a good deal of extra work.


My main issue with this is with Gruesome Tactics, or more specifically the description. "Willing to do whatever it takes." The idea that anything is acceptable if it is done to evil, or to stop evil is a very strong motivation and the characters who willingly walk an evil path so that those that follow can live in a safer world are some of my favourites.
Make no mistake. Someone whos acts of evil outweigh their acts of compassion or kindness is Evil. Even if they do it for the right reasons. Think the operative in Serenity. When he tells Mal about the wonderful world of peace and harmony he is trying to create, and Mal questions him on his right to live in that world after what he has done he replies something to the tune of "Oh, I am a monster, I have no illusions about that, I have no place in that world."
As such I would like to see a path open to Evil alignment (not exclusive to) for this kind of approach. "I become a monster, condemned to burn forever in the pits of the Hells, so that those who follow shall not be."




The internal battle of doing what is effective, and what is right is a struggle that anyone who fights Tyranny faces, I would like to see the Divine CG path opened to NG/CN also to represent that, they all fight for the same cause, but some will feel inspiring people to follow a virtuous path is more important, and some will feel that thwarting the enemy is.


The "ecto terorist" path is problematic. The battle between civilisation and nature is not such a big issue in the Forgotten Realms. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it doesn't exist, there are a number of very prominent deserts in places there should not be because old empires got greedy and destroyed the land and turned it nearly lifeless, and there will always be a conflict between those who live in a habitat and those who seek to exploit it too greedily, but most of the land is untamed wilderness.
There is a place for characters like this in the forgotten realms, but enough of a place that it becomes a distinct and prominent archetype in this class? Especially on Arelith where natural exploitation is hardly a major issue in the lore?
I mean, Guld had that plotline about nature spirits objecting to their logging. (As I recall it Guld lost and were forced to agree to stop logging. Which amounted to a few buildings being buried in rubble and some NPCs being removed for a few months, before being returned, Guld (or Westcliff as it is now) is now once again depicted as a logging town.) This biggest city on the island has a small area of farmland, and two mines that they can't even exploit because they are overrun by hostiles.
Again, I have no issue with the character type, I just don't feel that it should be even close to prolific enough to have its own official mechanics.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by TurningLeaf » Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:01 pm

Took a quick glance-over, seems strong yes but for the most powerful version I'm still not sure it beats a typical str based ranger build. Most classes are pretty well buffed in Arelith.

Also i dont know what exactly the implementation of the devices would be but it sounds interesting from a flavor standpoint.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Drowboy » Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:04 pm

Since we're doing costumed vigilantes I'd be absolutely furious with myself to not suggest ye olde 'magic' or elemental hero.

Maybe they pick an element at 1, and can do energy blasts/coat their fists with their element? You know the sort.
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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Waldo52 » Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:51 am

One more point of feedback during this crucial early phase:

There's really no good reason to block evil from this class. For some of the paths/options I totally get it, but as a player of evil characters this almost feels like a shiny new toy being dangled in front of my face and arbitrarily pulled back.

I think I understand the impulse to keep this class good/neutral. The bad guys always get cool things. Spikes, glowy red blades, devils, undead, poison use, scantily clad lady demons. The design of good classes often leads the player to pick up a holy glowing sword, an angel, a furry animal or at best a dark Robin Hood look. Good players really do need some cooler looking toys, and this has been a problem in just about every RPG I've seen.

In this context the vigilante makes a lot of sense as a non-evil only option. They can be unscrupulous slayers who do things a paladin can't, and wear spikey black leather doing it. The only problem is that there's just as much potential for evil vigilantes, if not more.

Vigilantes can be clever tinkerers who make deadly or deceptive contraptions, just like spider man or Bat Man. But what about Doctor Octopus or Mr Freeze? They fit the same sort of archetype but they're evil.

Vigilantes can be like rogues or assassins with poison use, better AB and HP and all sorts of likely power creep goodies. I know we're in the early development phase, but we all know how unlikely it is that anyone's gonna build one of these and say "I wish I made a rogue instead!" from a power level standpoint. You're taking one of the classic evil niches, making it better and branding it as GOOD ONLY.

I could go on but I'm pressed for time.

TL;DR: Non evil options for this class are totally fine, but depriving bad guys from so many thematically fitting buffs and toys is in my opinion arbitrary and inappropriate. Especially on a server that's already incredibly hard for us.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:28 am

Building off Waldo52 and magistras, vigilantism is not an inherently "good" or "non-lawful" activity.

Conceptually, a paladin refusing to uphold the administration of justice set by a Banite autocrat and in turn perpetuates Ilmateri ideas of justice would be, by some regards, a "vigilante."

Alternatively, a Banite who believes the merry-go-lucky Selunite theocrat is letting criminals get off to loosely, and opts to instead brutally hunt down demonmongering scum, is a "vigilante."

I think the alignment restrictions can start to get a little funny, and I don't think there should be any interplay with "divine"/divinity stuff.

I think if the Dev intention is to create an "unlawful authority enforcing lawfulness" (a more modern interpretation of vigilantism), this is actually probably a non-good character, not a non-lawful one.

If the "fantasy" of the vigilante design is to create "cool shadowy paladin-y types", I'd rather we do the -

-> Shadowbane Inquisitor Style PrC (a paladin/rogue PnP Prestige Class hybrid)
-> give a CG oath to paladins
-> create a cleric path that syncs with Rogue progression

And lastly, characters should *earn* the title or renown of being a vigilante. I foresee a lot of blundering around the roleplay implementation of this class - whereby 'vigilantes' are not really 'vigilantes' and in turn become more 'law and order' then undermining the class identity.
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Waldo52
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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Waldo52 » Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:34 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:28 am
-> Shadowbane Inquisitor Style PrC (a paladin/rogue PnP Prestige Class hybrid)
-> give a CG oath to paladins
-> create a cleric path that syncs with Rogue progression
+1

I just wanted to point out how good these ideas were.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Quidix » Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:40 am

Thank you and the team for the work. I'm excited about the addition and like the agility of the class.

I don't think it's as overturned as some suggest as one only selects 1 cause. That said, toning it down a bit is probably needed. These adjustments feel like no-regret:
- Half AB from Signature Weapon
- Half AB from Guerilla Warfare, or make it flanking only
- Reduce HP to d8

I do agree with others that opening the class to evil would be cool.
Last edited by Quidix on Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Arigard » Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:22 am

looks like an interesting class, more good work from the team. The mechanics of which I'm sure are going to be balanced and go through periods of reflexive thought etc.

My reservation is more in the concept. Is this a class that will be open to everyone, will it be behind a reward etc? I just feel like vigilante in a traditional PnP setting works because the party is small and one person pretending to be batman/kickass isn't going to break the bank, but once an entire server starts coming up with secret identities, trying to make a name for themselves etc and playing into the vigilante style RP, it has the potential to get a bit over the top...

A class like this, perhaps even more so than Paladin (because it's tied to building up an identity) is going to actively encourage players going out into the world and making a name for themselves. It's going to really place the whole "my character is the center of the world" syndrome at the forefront and it's just something I can see potentially causing issues if left completely unchecked. The idea of a vigilante/secret identity/superhero has the potential to be a very polarizing concept, I guess is what I'm trying to get across.

With all that said, I think the whole idea of having something increase over time with use is an amazing addition to Arelith and should be implemented with other systems. So massive kudos for that.
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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Edens_Fall » Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:40 am

I enjoy the "can't be elected as a settlement leader" restriction. It's a clever use of the game to add RP flare and a downside to taking the class.

Kudos to whomever thought it up. Would love to see more such things in the future.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:39 am

my biggest RP concern is the class infringes on the 'what alignment' is batman question when doing arelith bingo cards. (*edited*: I am a lawfulgood fan boy and I first wrote this a partial joke partial serious before writing everything else)

personally I think freedom is a (lawful) right to all a sentient beings and Optimus Prime is the best lawful good robot in all of the multiverses.

(I still argue batman is lawful good. I suppose i can also just make a neutral good follow of Ilmater and call it a day)

Alignments debates aside, I do like the themes of the causes.

mechanically/rp, I never been a fan of fear immunities being handed out to non paladins, but that's a whole other discussion. If a vigilante lives up to the whole cause then the way a paladin is suppose to be a paladin, not as big of a deal as it still is 'non-evil' themed. But I don't think we need more things auto immune to weird or fear in general.

I hope with this class the standard of 'alt identity' disguises is made more clear for teh community. Like I often advise people that their public name should be their character name sheet, not a disguised name even if said name is fake. Kind of like how bruce wayne is the mask for batman so there isnt a dissonance between your property owning name and your public alias.

Mechanically it looks like builders will need to see if outperforms the other class combo equivelants attempting to do the same thing. I don't immediately see redflags. The brutal damage is minimum (brutal damage sneak or what/) comparible to BG sneak progression. If we were to compare the divine paths of this vigilante class, it does not appear to offer more than BG does (smite, turning, powerful summon, cha saves, plus something weapon vs same stuff - cha saves,smiting, extra cookies/feats (like better smiting).

I do have a mechanically and rp concern of this opens up divine dip to all alignments.

Before at least if you were doing a bg/pal dip you were guranteed to be more suspectible to opposed alignment smiting.
Vigilante seems to have a lot of flexibility and you can just be a true neutral div dip sorceror. mechanically it doest appear 3 pal would offer more. I am sure many would be please by opening up div dip to all alignments though.

a real builder can give feedback how good other paths are, I would like to note to people to not be alarmed at the vigilance path and think its a substitute for true monk ac, as it counts as dodge ac and can be flatfooted.

The freedom path looks like it has some seriously good potential depending how gruesome tactics plays out. The swash buckler full bab path to epic dodge requires epic bonus feat taxes and being a 26 swash.

Epic investment its technically higher here as you need 9 epic lvls of this class plus the 10 pre epic, but I would be interested to see how 4x/7knight valiant/19 vigilante can play out. Specifically if intimidate gets used. The path might also make for a good str dip in the case of a barbarian depending how the gruesome math plays out. Might be best to avoid intimidate altogether, less we end up just having bard vigilantes determine the final minmaxed math of intimidate + alt disguise + sail all at the same time.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:29 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:39 am
my biggest RP concern is the class infringes on the 'what alignment' is batman question when doing arelith bingo cards. (*edited*: I am a lawfulgood fan boy and I first wrote this a partial joke partial serious before writing everything else)

Batman would be chaotic good everywhere besides arelith, where alignment is often twisted into knots to make sense of monk pirates and paladin murder hobos. Think of all the breaking and entering he does, and the complete disregard for goon A and B's Miranda rights.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:05 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:29 am
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:39 am
my biggest RP concern is the class infringes on the 'what alignment' is batman question when doing arelith bingo cards. (*edited*: I am a lawfulgood fan boy and I first wrote this a partial joke partial serious before writing everything else)

Batman would be chaotic good everywhere besides arelith, where alignment is often twisted into knots to make sense of monk pirates and paladin murder hobos. Think of all the breaking and entering he does, and the complete disregard for goon A and B's Miranda rights.
I think one of the most consistent criticisms we've seen so far is the whole alignment thing. Is there any way we can just say keep this thing non-lawful and call it a day? (LIKE A BARBARIAN!)

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:44 am

The mechanics of Vigilante isn't something I worry too much about; Jack Oat did a fantastic job making it very flavorful and not overpowering everything else we have in the current meta, harper/zhent paragon dips notwithstanding. Many of the concerns about the class offering too much, I recommend you all build a simple and basic 19 rogue / 6 ftr / 5 WM build, compare it to a deep Freedom or deep Vindication build, and observe the differences as an exercise.

We should also address the premise that "something offers too much without drawback." before we move on to alignments. We can look at every single class we have and say the same thing:
  • Fighter 20 offers 11 extra feats, extra weapon damage, all the extra AC, and full BAB progression, Fighter 23 offers 1 extra AB that counts for DR piercing, and 25 offers another AB and 3 AC. Why does it not have any drawbacks for being a dedicated fighter?
  • Ranger 21+ offers extra damage and AB vs. favored enemies (almost half of the available races) and skill points, free two-weapon fighting feats or ranged feats. Why does it not have any drawbacks for being a dedicated ranger?
  • Barbarians 20+ offers all these epic rages, extra damage, best maximum health progression, physical DR, and temp hp from rage. Why does it not have any drawbacks for being a dedicated barbarian?
  • Blackguard 16+ offers this big bad summon that no other full BAB classes have and divine feats and sneak attack progression. Why does it not have any drawbacks for being a dedicated Blackguard?
I can go on with the same premise. But the truth is, the drawback for most, if not all builds, is the number of levels spent in one class will take away from another class. The same applies to Vigilante. The other 2 significant drawbacks are the BAB loss for 3/4 BAB classes or CL for caster classes.

We all need to recognize how these types of questions are presented before we echo them. Do they truly understand the mechanics at hand, or are they simply going off on first impression without further in-depth thought and investigation? Vigilante took months of discussion, design, creation, coding, and testing. I ask that anyone who has a vested interest in this class also take at least hours, if not days, of vigorous building and testing before replying only with one's instinct and first impression. Concrete evidence, number-crunching, and build presentations will make for a healthier and more constructive mechanics discussion than paragraphs filled with "I think" or "my first impression is".

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by jomonog » Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:55 am

From a mechanical standpoint only things that stand out to me:

1. If parry AC stacks with the wisdom ac then you can make some fairly high ac builds that dip vigilante for the vigilance path. Hopefully this stays but question whether it is intended to work this way;
2. Having hide/ms as class skills on divine once again opens up stealth sorc and also div SD (which seemed to be the reason BG lost hide/ms awhile back which is why questioning if its intentionally been done to reverse that decision)

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:52 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:29 am
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:39 am
my biggest RP concern is the class infringes on the 'what alignment' is batman question when doing arelith bingo cards. (*edited*: I am a lawfulgood fan boy and I first wrote this a partial joke partial serious before writing everything else)

Batman would be chaotic good everywhere besides arelith, where alignment is often twisted into knots to make sense of monk pirates and paladin murder hobos. Think of all the breaking and entering he does, and the complete disregard for goon A and B's Miranda rights.

I mean we might need to agree to disagree. If I never played arelith or any online DnD, I would still argue people like Vash the Stampede or batman or lawful good and not chaotic good.

This can be a an endless 100 page necromanced thread and I feel we are more interested in debating mechanics. I said my piece, but I mentioned batman bingo in recognition that I know that not everyone is going to agree with me here.

By some small chance that people do care why I think this, I will give a short summary and just leave it at that (people are free to reply but I would recommend creating a new thread if you want me to further reply)

Lawful evil often has the 'killer with a code (some ninja assassin)' or a 'villian seeking to build their own soceity' (magneto) and these people very much break local laws that in the ways of their goals, but have their own sense of law, ways/things that inhibit their own freedom. When talking about lawful good, you can be a good version of that.. where you cause and deeds are good but your amount of 'code' is the same and you are still lawful.

Lots of DC fans, not all, can recognize that in some way batman and superman are cut from same cloth. At end of the day they both got god complexes that wants to work with the law but will feel their cause is above the law (or a law above laws kind of like hellknights in pathfinder). Superman is lawful because how good he is and batman is good because how lawful he is. He has codes/rules that prevent him from doing too much evil crap (ends justifying means). When talking about batman, what happens when the justice league gets formed? You know when batman pretty much has a license to be a superhero and has jurisdiction over other super heroes. Did he change suddenly form CG to LG? No, the circumstances around him did. His essence was always the same and just acted in relation to the environment around him.

Like wise, many paladin will find themselves a vigilante if the laws are unjust and not good. Their lawful commitment is to justice, not to some made up man local laws of some messed up town.

DnD has monks to Shar, and many causes/things that would normally be considered 'non-lawful' in their core essence, but the commitment to the things the lawful part, not what they are committing too. Demons don't commit to demon kind out of sense of duty, in fact they fight each other the most with their chaotic nature and are often actign out of selfish interest. You don't chaoticly commit to a cause. Your commitment could make you chaotic if you earn enough chaotic karma points, but the argument has and will always be made that breaking local laws in the face of cosmic justice doesn't really score you a lot of chaotic karma points when your fighting the lawfulgood fight.

-----

Now please reply to this non batman stuff:

That being said, my concern for every alignment divine dips have waivered a bit because i think this is a health alternative to underdark good aligned characters than being a secret paladin. As I argued above, 'I'm a secret paladin' can be done, but its unintuitive and nuanced in a way that beckons an alternative like the vigilante class as the distinction i make between local law and person/cosmic/godlaw is not crystal clear/understood/agreed upon by all players.

And although I hate reinforcing the idea that lawful = being a local law simp; hurdling the masses towards that said ideas (but not enforcing it like super restricting how lawful can be done for all other classes.. stil allowing the nuance) may actually be better for the server health. My concern is this class will be quoted saying arelith indeed adheres that being lawful = local law simp. If we stay clear of that, I think the stereotyping of vigilante being non lawful can be a good thing as a guidelines to roleplay. A player can still roll up a neutral good vigilante and be quite paladin like. I also appreciate the non good part of the vigilante. Evil already has so many classes to access/play around with.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:55 pm

Kenji wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:44 am
The mechanics of Vigilante isn't something I worry too much about; Jack Oat did a fantastic job making it very flavorful and not overpowering everything else we have in the current meta, harper/zhent paragon dips notwithstanding. Many of the concerns about the class offering too much, I recommend you all build a simple and basic 19 rogue / 6 ftr / 5 WM build, compare it to a deep Freedom or deep Vindication build, and observe the differences as an exercise.

We should also address the premise that "something offers too much without drawback." before we move on to alignments. We can look at every single class we have and say the same thing:
  • Fighter 20 offers 11 extra feats, extra weapon damage, all the extra AC, and full BAB progression, Fighter 23 offers 1 extra AB that counts for DR piercing, and 25 offers another AB and 3 AC. Why does it not have any drawbacks for being a dedicated fighter?
  • Ranger 21+ offers extra damage and AB vs. favored enemies (almost half of the available races) and skill points, free two-weapon fighting feats or ranged feats. Why does it not have any drawbacks for being a dedicated ranger?
  • Barbarians 20+ offers all these epic rages, extra damage, best maximum health progression, physical DR, and temp hp from rage. Why does it not have any drawbacks for being a dedicated barbarian?
  • Blackguard 16+ offers this big bad summon that no other full BAB classes have and divine feats and sneak attack progression. Why does it not have any drawbacks for being a dedicated Blackguard?
I can go on with the same premise. But the truth is, the drawback for most, if not all builds, is the number of levels spent in one class will take away from another class. The same applies to Vigilante. The other 2 significant drawbacks are the BAB loss for 3/4 BAB classes or CL for caster classes.

We all need to recognize how these types of questions are presented before we echo them. Do they truly understand the mechanics at hand, or are they simply going off on first impression without further in-depth thought and investigation? Vigilante took months of discussion, design, creation, coding, and testing. I ask that anyone who has a vested interest in this class also take at least hours, if not days, of vigorous building and testing before replying only with one's instinct and first impression. Concrete evidence, number-crunching, and build presentations will make for a healthier and more constructive mechanics discussion than paragraphs filled with "I think" or "my first impression is".
my apologies for batman bingoing your feedback thread lol

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by satan » Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:10 pm

My only, probably wildly unpopular opinion is that the theme of this class doesn't fit the world or the lore, and seems completely out of place in arelith both from an RP and a mechanical perspective.

If I want a superhero game there are a lot of options.
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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Hinty » Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:07 pm

And this is a reason to consider changing the name.

Its just a name. You can build a Vigilante class character without being a masked hero standing on rooftops and fighting in the streets, but many people will see the name and immediately start playing the character as comic book heroes. In fact, many will see the name in the class list and purposely create concepts like that.

Perhaps name it something else. "Champion of Freedom" perhaps. Its hard to think of something that wont heavily influence concepts...

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:14 pm

I love the theme of the class and the mechanics involved are interesting. My only concern is it seems like a straight upgrade to rogue, except it's alignment locked. I understand why it's alignment locked, there was a whole conversation last year about how to make non-evil prestige classes since so many of them are evil themed. But because of the benefits it provides over rogue, it sort of sucks for any evil rogue out there now. I'm imagining a future where every disguise heavy cloak and dagger character in Andunor are neutral so they can use this class.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:15 pm

satan wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:10 pm
My only, probably wildly unpopular opinion is that the theme of this class doesn't fit the world or the lore, and seems completely out of place in arelith both from an RP and a mechanical perspective.

If I want a superhero game there are a lot of options.
If you equate vigilante to superhero, I don't think this is going to be that unpopular of an opinion. The truth is that this is a non LG non evil divine class, and despite the silly name and the silly debates about alignment is actually a welcome addition to the game. Who knows, it might even let paladins act like traditional paladins while allowing for a class that fits what paladins are often played as on Arelith.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by elftv » Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:34 pm

I'm genuinely more concerned the class may fall short in too many comparisons. It also seems like too good of a 3 level dip as an alternative to paladin and bg. It does need the free power attack otherwise it's gonna eat dirt in feats after spending dirty fighting and potentially cross classing bluff till level 5 which is a 10 skill point tax or whatever you're doing for your vigilante build. But the level 3 point of vigilante is really good across the board.

I'll be clear here that I'm actually a huge fan of 3 level dips and a proponent of them being equally apart your roleplay as long as it has definitive features like monk, paladin, and blackguard do. I love the idea of a variation on the 3 level dips, and this one even takes away your ability to be a nation leader.

My one other comment/thought is that I wouldn't WANT to play one of these without the disguise upgrade feat, but that I would mechanically feel pretty bad taking it over other options. I would genuinely recommend this one for a base class feature, though probably not within the first 3 levels.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:17 pm

elftv wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:34 pm
I'm genuinely more concerned the class may fall short in too many comparisons. It also seems like too good of a 3 level dip as an alternative to paladin and bg. It does need the free power attack otherwise it's gonna eat dirt in feats after spending dirty fighting and potentially cross classing bluff till level 5 which is a 10 skill point tax or whatever you're doing for your vigilante build. But the level 3 point of vigilante is really good across the board.

I'll be clear here that I'm actually a huge fan of 3 level dips and a proponent of them being equally apart your roleplay as long as it has definitive features like monk, paladin, and blackguard do. I love the idea of a variation on the 3 level dips, and this one even takes away your ability to be a nation leader.

My one other comment/thought is that I wouldn't WANT to play one of these without the disguise upgrade feat, but that I would mechanically feel pretty bad taking it over other options. I would genuinely recommend this one for a base class feature, though probably not within the first 3 levels.
I have two concerns, and for my first I'd like to piggyback off of what you said. I also enjoy tasteful 3-4 level dips, they're often discouraged by ceetain role play purists but I think they can be rewarding both in terms of character and character sheet. But with any class, especially one that is perceived as untraditional or weird, I think we should ensure that a dip isn't too overpowered. I know that when any new class drops it becomes the cool thing to try and Skal is infested with them but I would really hate if six months in everyone is a vigilante.

My second concern is even nearer and dearer to my heart. The whole inspector gadget/batman tool belt element of this class looks really cool. I haven't seen any numbers or data for the special bombs/gizmos but it looks like this is supposed to be some pseudo-artificer path or trapper/grenadier rogue on steroids. It also seems to be that abilities like this would find a home in the underdark right away, which is concerning. It seems like not only a class but a whole new shady, crafty and deceptive fighting style will now be blocked from anyone with "evil" written on their character sheet. There's really no justification for this in the setting.

I'll be quiet about the issue after this, as I've made my feedback clear but I'd love it if I could get an answer from the devs: is there any way you would consider opening up certain vigilante paths for evil characters or making similar gadget abilities to other classes?

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Sincra » Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:03 am

Evil has alot to play with already, so no, there's no plans to unlock it that I am aware of.
Irongron wrote:I've literally never used -guard on anyone.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Ork » Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:12 am

Waldo52 wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:17 pm
It seems like not only a class but a whole new shady, crafty and deceptive fighting style will now be blocked from anyone with "evil" written on their character sheet. There's really no justification for this in the setting.
The class is non-evil. You could argue that assassins don't need to be evil till your blue in the face, but I don't see that changing any time soon. This is similar.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:If the "fantasy" of the vigilante design is to create "cool shadowy paladin-y types", I'd rather we do the -

-> Shadowbane Inquisitor Style PrC (a paladin/rogue PnP Prestige Class hybrid)
-> give a CG oath to paladins
-> create a cleric path that syncs with Rogue progression
In a similar way that a bard doesn't need to say they're a bard, I don't think a vigilante needs to say that they're a vigilante. This is a relevent blurb from the 3.5 splatbook vigilante comes from - Complete Adventurer p85:
The vigilante combines magical and mundane investigative techniques to assess a crime scene. He is adept at learning “the word on the street” about a crime, analyzing clues, and identifying likely suspects. Once on the trail, he relentlessly tails, apprehends, and interrogates a suspect until the truth comes out. Many vigilantes work for the local ruler or the city guard; others are independent detectives-for-hire. Some even take to the streets by night to stop crimes in progress—or to keep would-be criminals from striking in the first place.

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