Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

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Waldo52
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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:47 am

Sincra wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:03 am
Evil has alot to play with already, so no, there's no plans to unlock it that I am aware of.
Oh rats, definitely not what I wanted to hear. But thank you for taking the time to respond to a bit of dissenting feedback.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Eyeliner » Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:41 am

I expect we'll see some evil-acting neutral Vigilantes in Anundor. I don't particularly care about things like that but someone might.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Dr. B » Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:58 pm

msterswrdsmn wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:12 am
Kenji wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:03 am
Let me know how that 11 caster 19 vig build works out for you on PGCC.
Challenge Accepted! Does spellsword count?

I threw together a half-hearted build, having absolutely no knowledge on how spellswords are supposed to work. I went DEX based, with starting stats of something like 12 STR/18 Dex/12 con/8 wis/18 int/8 cha after gifts.

The end result of a 11 spellsword /19 vigilante ended naked as:
30 AC
39-40 AB while holding a signature weapon (scimitar)
Skills all in the 40's and high 30's.

Again, I threw this together at random. I threw on a circlet of logic, grand magi robes, slippers of soft movement and a displacer beast cloak. I have on idea what i'm doing and i noticed i screwed up my spell selection and am missing a lot of cruicial buffs. Oh well. I gave up halfway through gearing up and went in without any amulets, rings, gloves or runed gear.

End result was about 45 AB buffed, 40-45 AC buffed, but again, i'm missing a LOT of buffs, like shield, because I was hitting the recommend button for spells to blow through that portion (I'm used to building innate casters sadly). I think the only buffs that are actually raising my AC at this point are mage armor and cats grace.

And I still did reasonably well. Damage was in the high 50's with sneak attacks and a 1d8 imbued masterly damask scimitar. No essences, no other buffs, no dirty fighting, so the damage can easily be cranked higher as well. Crit sneaks were around 70 with this halfhearted gear setup. The midish AB can easily be fixed with things like darkness flatfooting, attacking from stealth, or general debuffing. Or actually building properly.
....
Given how badly I screwed this up, building with a class I know nothing about and missing half my gear and using unruned gear on everything else, I should -not- be doing anywhere near this well. Period.

Actually building this with something that -does- synergize with this class well and is properly geared, like swashbuckler, rogue, ranger, or harper paragon as mentioned before would likely be far, far worse.

To Waldo52:
Sorry if it seems like i'm coming off as a negative person. My job has heavily influenced my analytical writing style in a very bad way. That said, feedback was asked, and I'm just trying to throw out some immediate red flags that I noticed upon first glance, and referenced it to the bard freakout not to long ago, which was nowhere near as powerful as this is.

Nothing person, no hate intended. I can tell a lot of effort was put into this, and I like the -idea- of a vigilante character, but this is like batman on venom after crossbreeding with superman here.
*dispels you*

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Scurvy Cur » Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:54 am

Ok, now that things seem to have settled some and I have had the time to build some vigilantes out, I have a bit of feedback to give.

Overall, the class actually seems to come out just a little behind most of what you can do with other classes, in other parts of the alignment spectrum. I note that Dirty Fighting is still marked "hold this space", and it's possible that whatever goes there will even things out. Particularly, the requirement that the epic bonus feats be spent on class features will rise and fall based on how good the dirty fighting techniques wind up being. If they're good, then the class will feel good, if they're bad, the class will feel like it's missing 2 epic feats, because it will have picked up its good techniques already, and will be spending the epic feats on the less potent features. I will revise my stance once we learn what Dirty Fighting will do.

There are, however, some outliers that I would like to address:

1) Vigilante has hide/ms as class skills. This means that a div sorc who dips vigi will get stealth. This is the reason blackguard got hide/ms removed after the big skill update of last year.

Suggestion: if possible, restrict hide and move silently to the non-divine vigilante paths.

2) There is one build that looks particularly strong as an outlier, and I'm not sure it's what was intended to be done with the class: Swashbuckler 6/Paragon 5/Vindicator 19 comes out with 10d6 sneak attacks 50 AB (leaving aside short term buffs like aid), high 50s AC, crippling strike, poison use, and super disguises.

My suspicion, looking at the class layout and the alignment restrictions is that Vigi was supposed to be un div dippable (since neither paladin nor blackguard can go vigi). But Paragon may have slipped through the cracks.

Suggestion: Properly block the three non-div vigis from might/shield use, so that the only div vigis to worry about are the ones who take Old Dirt or the CG smiter paths.

3) Speaking of the CG smiter path, it feels like it will be awkwardly worse than deep pal or deep BG in most situations with the exception of killing single targets in pvp with overwhelming burst attacks. For both paladin and blackguard, smite has been restricted to Great Smiting I for strength builds (and deeper investment requires the sacrifice of going charisma and tanking your non-smite AB). I worry a little that this path will be both clunky in pve content with the double action might/shield windup, but also probably a little too bursty for comfort in pvp.

Suggestion: Strip out gsmites 2 and 3, replace with divine synergy, extra smiting, and improved turning. This puts the CG quasi paladin vigi on par (ish) with vengeance paladin and deep bg both in terms of tempo and smiting performance. Overall, this is probably a buff for anything that isn't pvp damage spikes, while mitigating the potential for builds that go all in on overwhelming damage spikes against a single target.


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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:48 am

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:54 am
1) Vigilante has hide/ms as class skills. This means that a div sorc who dips vigi will get stealth. This is the reason blackguard got hide/ms removed after the big skill update of last year.

Suggestion: if possible, restrict hide and move silently to the non-divine vigilante paths.
Agreed. It also opens up div swash sd without needing locked classes.
Scurvy Cur wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:54 am
2) There is one build that looks particularly strong as an outlier, and I'm not sure it's what was intended to be done with the class: Swashbuckler 6/Paragon 5/Vindicator 19 comes out with 10d6 sneak attacks 50 AB (leaving aside short term buffs like aid), high 50s AC, crippling strike, poison use, and super disguises.

My suspicion, looking at the class layout and the alignment restrictions is that Vigi was supposed to be un div dippable (since neither paladin nor blackguard can go vigi). But Paragon may have slipped through the cracks.

Suggestion: Properly block the three non-div vigis from might/shield use, so that the only div vigis to worry about are the ones who take Old Dirt or the CG smiter paths.
Agreed on the paragon. And... possibly harper priest.

However, I think that Cleric also 'slipped through the cracks' here. And compared to cleric, paragon gets significantly higher saves (especially fort, since you get great fort), you get 3 bonus feats which is an up trade in feats even with the requirements included, and does not drop 1 bab. Harper priest is also problematic in that it's about the same as cleric (feat neutral, because you need to pick turn undead) but you get tumble for a net lose of 1 bab. I think maybe we can leave div shield/might available for cleric dips and just disable paragon/priest.
Scurvy Cur wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:54 am
3) Speaking of the CG smiter path, it feels like it will be awkwardly worse than deep pal or deep BG in most situations with the exception of killing single targets in pvp with overwhelming burst attacks. For both paladin and blackguard, smite has been restricted to Great Smiting I for strength builds (and deeper investment requires the sacrifice of going charisma and tanking your non-smite AB). I worry a little that this path will be both clunky in pve content with the double action might/shield windup, but also probably a little too bursty for comfort in pvp.

Suggestion: Strip out gsmites 2 and 3, replace with divine synergy, extra smiting, and improved turning. This puts the CG quasi paladin vigi on par (ish) with vengeance paladin and deep bg both in terms of tempo and smiting performance. Overall, this is probably a buff for anything that isn't pvp damage spikes, while mitigating the potential for builds that go all in on overwhelming damage spikes against a single target.
Absolutely love this suggestion.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by jomonog » Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:33 am

Been playing around a bit more with the vigilance path, mainly for the wisdom to ac cookie and the more I look at it now that parry doesnt work with that ability I just can't see any use case for the path as it currently stands. Its a worse monk dip because you get the ac as dodge (it also specifically doesnt work with div shield) and most zen archers can just dip monk late for tumble so vigilante being full bab as opposed to 3/4 monk bab provides no advantage on a dip. Common zen archer builds like ranger/monk/aa or bard/monk/aa dont seem to gain anything substituting for vigilante. Vig dip costs 5 levels as well compared to 3 on monk and vigilante doesnt have tumble as a class skill. Deep vigilance path also doesnt seem that appealing as a zen archer alternative. Maybe im missing something but I can't see the path having much play as currently planned. It needs something more compelling to recommend it as an alternative to a monk dip imo. My suggestion if the ac wont work with parry or a shield is perhaps allowing it to wear at least light or medium armor. Otherwise maybe some better cookies aimed at archer deeper into the path similar to ranger (free called shot? some scaling bow damage?)

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:43 am

Coming changes to Vigilante
Vigilante
=========
Cause progression changed, check out the spreadsheet (v1.01 tab)

Hide and Move Silently removed from Vigilante skills

Divine Might/Shield disabled from Non-Divine causes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =882680237

I'm contemplating that it may just be a better approach to make 2 separate PrCs, one being Vigilante as a non-div PrC with Hide and MS, the other being a div PrC that caters to all the non-Paladin/BG alignments without being Harper or Zhent.

Feel free to give some generic name ideas, I'm thinking something like Avenger. Specific PrC names should be avoided as it limits the RP interpretation.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Baseili » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:22 pm

I'd suggest strip the divine aspects of the Divine Heart and Elder Earth, which are pretty well covered by divine champion/druid/ranger, and rename them to Compassion and Conservation? The themes of them are excellent just need to replace the divine aspects with more mundane stuff.

Compassion focus on healing and helping the suffering, creating potions or item uses of spells like sustanance, cure poison/disease or the various restorations. A path that you could see sneak into slave pits to tend wounds before ambushing the slavers.

Conservation is already in a pretty good place, just swapping out the 3rd and 17th level divine stuff maybe with items for entangle or vine mine, the whole natures wrath ideal perhaps replacing divine with the restoration theme?

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by MathAenya » Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:28 pm

Baseili wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:22 pm
I'd suggest strip the divine aspects of the Divine Heart and Elder Earth, which are pretty well covered by divine champion/druid/ranger, and rename them to Compassion and Conservation? The themes of them are excellent just need to replace the divine aspects with more mundane stuff.

Compassion focus on healing and helping the suffering, creating potions or item uses of spells like sustanance, cure poison/disease or the various restorations. A path that you could see sneak into slave pits to tend wounds before ambushing the slavers.

Conservation is already in a pretty good place, just swapping out the 3rd and 17th level divine stuff maybe with items for entangle or vine mine, the whole natures wrath ideal perhaps replacing divine with the restoration theme?
Love the flavor of those!

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:20 am

Kenji wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:43 am
Coming changes to Vigilante
Vigilante
=========
Cause progression changed, check out the spreadsheet (v1.01 tab)

Hide and Move Silently removed from Vigilante skills

Divine Might/Shield disabled from Non-Divine causes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =882680237

I'm contemplating that it may just be a better approach to make 2 separate PrCs, one being Vigilante as a non-div PrC with Hide and MS, the other being a div PrC that caters to all the non-Paladin/BG alignments without being Harper or Zhent.

Feel free to give some generic name ideas, I'm thinking something like Avenger. Specific PrC names should be avoided as it limits the RP interpretation.
I feel like an avenger would very much have stealth skill acess. In 4e DnD avenger was step lightly, carry a big weapon.

In pathfinder, a inquisitor was like this mix between a rogue and a paladin/cleric

You probably also didnt do this, but your diverse/many paths to vigilante is very reflective of the pathfinder vigilante class. To the point that said class seperate paths even change your bab progression.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Vangrave » Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:11 pm

I'd agree with the idea to separate them into two different PRCs. Without Hide/MS I don't see any compelling reason to take any of the non-div vigilante paths. They end up being poorer versions of whatever class they're mimicking. This might change depending on what happens with dirty fighting/what the gadgets do, but with the info we've got now I think splitting them is the way to go. No reason to penalize the non-div vigilante paths.

Would be interesting to see some of them have different BAB progression, maybe some of the paths getting tumble etc.

If they're split into two, I'd say call the divine vigilante paths "Liberator". Feels pretty appropriate for Chaotic Good.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Waldo52 » Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:13 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:20 am
Kenji wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:43 am
Coming changes to Vigilante
Vigilante
=========
Cause progression changed, check out the spreadsheet (v1.01 tab)

Hide and Move Silently removed from Vigilante skills

Divine Might/Shield disabled from Non-Divine causes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =882680237

I'm contemplating that it may just be a better approach to make 2 separate PrCs, one being Vigilante as a non-div PrC with Hide and MS, the other being a div PrC that caters to all the non-Paladin/BG alignments without being Harper or Zhent.

Feel free to give some generic name ideas, I'm thinking something like Avenger. Specific PrC names should be avoided as it limits the RP interpretation.
I feel like an avenger would very much have stealth skill acess. In 4e DnD avenger was step lightly, carry a big weapon.

In pathfinder, a inquisitor was like this mix between a rogue and a paladin/cleric

You probably also didnt do this, but your diverse/many paths to vigilante is very reflective of the pathfinder vigilante class. To the point that said class seperate paths even change your bab progression.
I just want to highlight this thing about the Inquisitor from Pathfinder. Check it out!

Weather it's for the vigilante or for future projects it's a great inspiration. Basically a divine rogue/ninja/thug/secret agent.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:13 pm

Newest Vigilante Update:
  • Div Path removed
  • Other paths adjusted
  • Tumble, Hide, and Move Silently are now class skills
More details are in the spreadsheet below:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =340340384

Liberator will be the new CG Div PrC that takes the div path's places. More details will be disclosed in the future, and another thread specific to Liberators will be made.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by WanderingPoet » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:02 pm

Seems a bit strange to be missing UMD while also having explosives. Is that for balance reasons? From a dip perspective that doens't seem any better than just going 3 bard in epics to get UMD/tumble/disc; and if anything a bit worse due to whatever PRC requirements this has.

(Note I didn't read the entire thread so if you already responded to that feedback, feel free to ignore me :) )
Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:41 am

WanderingPoet wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:02 pm
Seems a bit strange to be missing UMD while also having explosives. Is that for balance reasons? From a dip perspective that doens't seem any better than just going 3 bard in epics to get UMD/tumble/disc; and if anything a bit worse due to whatever PRC requirements this has.

(Note I didn't read the entire thread so if you already responded to that feedback, feel free to ignore me :) )
Dip-wise, Vigilante will serve as a different niche, that being non-lawful monk's Wis to AC and UBAB attack for unarmed.

The UBAB implementation is noted as follows:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Code: Select all

Important Milestones							
	Vanilla					New +1					New +2
15	+15/+15/+12/+9/+6/+3		15	+15/+15/+10/+10/+5		15	+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5	
16	+16/+16/+13/+10/+7/+4/+1	16	+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+1		16	+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1	
20	+20/+20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5	20	+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+5		20	+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5	
It's also a full BAB class (at the cost of a pre-epic feat that may become useful down the line). Therefore Vigilantes won't and should not be getting UMD, it'd otherwise offer too much.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:00 am

why does it progress like this tho? It seems strange. it's ubab in -5s but falls off in ab every 2 attacks rather than 1. This is actually looking *better* than vanilla ubab by the 3rd attack and forward in the round.
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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by WanderingPoet » Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:26 am

Kenji wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:41 am
WanderingPoet wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:02 pm
Seems a bit strange to be missing UMD while also having explosives. Is that for balance reasons? From a dip perspective that doens't seem any better than just going 3 bard in epics to get UMD/tumble/disc; and if anything a bit worse due to whatever PRC requirements this has.

(Note I didn't read the entire thread so if you already responded to that feedback, feel free to ignore me :) )
Dip-wise, Vigilante will serve as a different niche, that being non-lawful monk's Wis to AC and UBAB attack for unarmed.

The UBAB implementation is noted as follows:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Code: Select all

Important Milestones							
	Vanilla					New +1					New +2
15	+15/+15/+12/+9/+6/+3		15	+15/+15/+10/+10/+5		15	+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5	
16	+16/+16/+13/+10/+7/+4/+1	16	+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+1		16	+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1	
20	+20/+20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5	20	+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+5		20	+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5	
It's also a full BAB class (at the cost of a pre-epic feat that may become useful down the line). Therefore Vigilantes won't and should not be getting UMD, it'd otherwise offer too much.
Oh that's very interesting. Makes sense to not want a full BAB class to have it. Understandable!

I can't say I really understand what I'm looking at in the UBAB sheet. The vanilla column I understand, but the 1 extra APR and 2 extra APR I don't. Haste will be required to get to the full 6-7 APR?

Are the 1extra APR and 2 extra APR just two possible variations the devs are still deciding on?

I'm not seeing why 15 is an important milestone, it looks like just 1 more AB than 14. I'd have thought 13 would be the bigger milestone since that is when you go from 5APR to 6APR (in vanilla/2 extra APR versions).
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:00 am
why does it progress like this tho? It seems strange. it's ubab in -5s but falls off in ab every 2 attacks rather than 1. This is actually looking *better* than vanilla ubab by the 3rd attack and forward in the round.

I'd say it's a slight nerf given your third attack loses 2 AB, even if your third gains 1 and your sixth gains 2.

+20/+20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5
+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5
+0/+0 /-2/+1/-1/+2/+0

So it does gain as much as it loses, some might disagree but I'd say the later attacks are generally lower value.
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Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:40 am

The assessment on the new UBAB approach being a general nerf compared to Monk’s UBAB is the consensus among the team. The later attacks are not as valuable as the first two attacks, a drop in 2 AB for the second attack is more significant than a gain in 2 AB in the second last attack.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by jomonog » Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:00 pm

The vigilante monk ac looks potentially problematic to me given all the existing class exceptions where some types of class ac dont stack with monk wisdom ac (for example, spellsword, invoker, divine shield, some druid shapes, etc). Are those exceptions going to be extended to also not work with the vigilante wisdom ac or is it thought that because its dodge and not untyped that there is no need to create new exceptions?

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Barkoneus » Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:20 pm

I'd just like to chime in that I really don't understand the UBAB progression here... and apologies if this has been explained somewhere.

Vigilantes get a special UBAB progression separate from Monks?

What is the difference between the two approaches, meaning are they still both being considered? Are those extra attacks only when hasted... meaning a Level 20 vigilante gets 4 attacks per round, but potentially 7 when hasted?

Is there also a bonus unarmed damage like monks? Or vigilantes would be intended to use the special UBAB-eligible weapons?

Thanks...

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Quidix » Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:40 pm

I'd love to see some monk-weapon bonus to the monk path, if that could be considered.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Good Character » Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:26 pm

For me, the class is a bit confusing in some aspects:

1. You earn Method 1 at level 6 and Method 2 at level 9 but you can choose a Cause at level 3 and Causes seem to automatically provide Methods. Does Method 1 and 2 let you just have the Methods accessible in the Cause(s) you didn't choose?

2. Does Fervent Cause just upgrade the Method for the Cause you chose, or does it do something entirely different?

3. What's the intended change to Dirty Fighting to make Skirmish Maneuvers/Guerilla Warfare worthwhile? (Assuming currently it still sets your APR to 1)

4. I couldn't find it in the thread yet beyond speculation. What does "Brutal Attack" do?

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:15 am

WanderingPoet wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:26 am
I can't say I really understand what I'm looking at in the UBAB sheet. The vanilla column I understand, but the 1 extra APR and 2 extra APR I don't. Haste will be required to get to the full 6-7 APR?

Are the 1extra APR and 2 extra APR just two possible variations the devs are still deciding on?
Given 16+ pre-epic BAB, a monk can achieve 6 APR with the -3 AB regression. Haste would then give it an extra attack at the highest AB, achieving 7 APR.

The scripted approach takes 16+ pre-epic BAB with 4 APR into account. It proceeds to give 2 scripted APR that goes into the Haste AB regression, thereby achieving 4 APR with 3 extra Haste APR, a total of 7. 4 of them will be on -5 AB regression, and 3 will be on the Haste's -5 AB progression separate from the original 4 APR.

Monk's UBAB is hardcoded by nature, and there isn't much we can do beyond modifying the AB regression. We are allowed a greater range of customization with scripted UBAB even though it is slightly nerfed compared to the Monk's original UBAB. These can be allowing what extra APR is gained at how many class levels, if equipping a shield or armor and not both would disable only 1 APR rather than both APRs, or allow UBAB to go with certain weapons but only gives 1 APR and not 2 APR.
WanderingPoet wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:26 am
I'm not seeing why 15 is an important milestone, it looks like just 1 more AB than 14. I'd have thought 13 would be the bigger milestone since that is when you go from 5APR to 6APR (in vanilla/2 extra APR versions).
3/4 BAB classes such as Rogue, Monk, Bard, etc., when taken in full 20 pre-epic levels in any combination, without multiclassing to a full BAB class, can only achieve 15 BAB. This is why many builds often take at least 4 levels of a full BAB class pre-epic to achieve 16 BAB, increasing the APR by one more. 15 BAB builds obtain 3 APR, whereas 16 to 20 BAB builds enjoy 4 APR. Hence the milestones are noted in 15, 16, and 20.
jomonog wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:00 pm
The vigilante monk ac looks potentially problematic to me given all the existing class exceptions where some types of class ac dont stack with monk wisdom ac (for example, spellsword, invoker, divine shield, some druid shapes, etc). Are those exceptions going to be extended to also not work with the vigilante wisdom ac or is it thought that because its dodge and not untyped that there is no need to create new exceptions?
The intent is that any existing features that don't stack with Monk Wis to AC (Untyped AC), such as Parry (when unarmed), Divine Shield (in general), or Spellsword, should not stack with Vigilante's scripted Wis to AC (Dodge AC).

But currently, as it is, I might open up some synergies to see if the Untyped AC stacking vs Dodge AC hitting a ceiling will make a big difference in attainable AC. Vigilante serves as a good testing bed for future changes to Monks, both in terms of the new approach to UBAB progression and Wis to AC types.
Barkoneus wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:20 pm
I'd just like to chime in that I really don't understand the UBAB progression here... and apologies if this has been explained somewhere.

Vigilantes get a special UBAB progression separate from Monks?

What is the difference between the two approaches, meaning are they still both being considered? Are those extra attacks only when hasted... meaning a Level 20 vigilante gets 4 attacks per round, but potentially 7 when hasted?

Is there also a bonus unarmed damage like monks? Or vigilantes would be intended to use the special UBAB-eligible weapons?

Thanks...
The UBAB from Monk is done at an AB regression of -3. For a 15 BAB character, it'd be a total of 5 APR. For a 16 to 20 BAB character, a maximum of 6 APR is achieved. The scripted UBAB approach is to provide 4 APR (from 16 to 20 BAB) Vigilantes with two extra APRs that follow the haste progression to match the same amount of APR a monk would obtain when unarmed.

Bonus unarmed damage is still to be determined, but Vigilantes will likely have access to UBAB-eligible weapons with only 1 extra APR rather than 2. To re-emphasize, Vigilante will serve as a testing bed for new approaches to UBAB for mainly balance purposes that will eventually allow weapon monks to become a thing without enabling the old, meta-defining Monk UBAB on certain weapons.
Good Character wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:26 pm
For me, the class is a bit confusing in some aspects:

1. You earn Method 1 at level 6 and Method 2 at level 9 but you can choose a Cause at level 3 and Causes seem to automatically provide Methods. Does Method 1 and 2 let you just have the Methods accessible in the Cause(s) you didn't choose?

2. Does Fervent Cause just upgrade the Method for the Cause you chose, or does it do something entirely different?

3. What's the intended change to Dirty Fighting to make Skirmish Maneuvers/Guerilla Warfare worthwhile? (Assuming currently it still sets your APR to 1)

4. I couldn't find it in the thread yet beyond speculation. What does "Brutal Attack" do?
1. Yes, there will be a total of 4 methods available upon release. This would mean a level 6 vigilante has access to 2 unique methods.

2. Fervent Cause is just an upgraded version of the Cause. The difference is mainly flavor and for development purposes.

4. Brutal Attack is a renamed version of Sneak Attack. Functionally they're all the same. The name change is mainly flavor like Rogues and SDs have Sneak Attacks, Blackguards and Vigilantes have Brutal Attacks, and Assassins have Death Attacks.

3. Here's the intended change to Dirty Fighting:
Dirty Fighting Overhaul
  • This is now a set of active feat abilities that can target and damage an enemy like Smite
  • All Dirty Fighting techniques are done at -4 AB and have a 9-second cooldown
  • DC is 10 + Character Level / 3 + (Bluff or Sleight of Hand) / 6
  • Damage is 1d4 + Dex Mod; unarmed will use the fist and all of its bonus damage as damage
  • Debuff only works on mostly humanoids and animals
  • Techniques:
    - Sand in the Eyes - blinds for 5 seconds, Reflex negates, can be used when having a free hand (Not dual-wielding or holding a shield with a weapon)
    - Pommel Strike - stuns for 2 seconds, Fortitude negates, can be used when wielding a melee weapon
    - Low Blow - slows for 6 seconds, Will negates, can be used by all weapon style
    - Nosebreak - dazes for 3 seconds, Fortitude negates, can be used when holding a shield or wearing heavy armor
    - Headbutt - confuses for 4 seconds, Will negates, can be used by all weapon style

jomonog
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 2:32 am

Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by jomonog » Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:25 am

Sounds cool, you probably also want to have a look at werewolf interaction unless youre looking to encourage those ofc

xanrael
Posts: 507
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by xanrael » Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:42 am

Could probably expand the target choice of Dirty Fighting to include all types that are affected by Dominate Person or Animal Empathy. A harpy or worg would probably be as likely to be affected by this as a human or wolf. That may be what you mean already by "mostly humanoids or animals".

Really I'd say other types like outsiders and fey would fall under that as well, many of them have a humanoid or animalistic shape like an Erinyes or Nymph.

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