Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

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Helsing
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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Helsing » Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:51 am

Liberator is just worse version of Blackguard.
Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:01 am

Vigilante and Liberator will be released Soon™

Liberator prerequisites have been changed to be the same as Blackguard's: +6 BAB and nothing else

Signature Weapon is confirmed fixed. Please provide feedback on its usage and the process.

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Quidix » Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:19 pm

Exciting it's coming out.

Three things I just wanted to check if intentional or bugs based on PGCC:

1) If taking Ki Strike 4/5 and using a monk weapon, there is no bonus AB or damage applied (I was expecting +2/+2)
2) One can only choose Class Feats on 13/16/19, whereas I expected to be able to select at least some general epic feats
3) Avariel can be Vigilantes - is that intentional as it was specifically excluded from monks? (given it's dodge AC, maybe it's fine)

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:53 am

Quidix wrote:
Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:19 pm
Exciting it's coming out.

Three things I just wanted to check if intentional or bugs based on PGCC:

1) If taking Ki Strike 4/5 and using a monk weapon, there is no bonus AB or damage applied (I was expecting +2/+2)
2) One can only choose Class Feats on 13/16/19, whereas I expected to be able to select at least some general epic feats
3) Avariel can be Vigilantes - is that intentional as it was specifically excluded from monks? (given it's dodge AC, maybe it's fine)
Sometimes PGCC is behind on updates as it doesn't get reset as often as the live servers. Did you make sure that its hak version is up-to-date? (Not having to download a different set of NWSync for PGCC vs. Live is often a good indicator, but not always)

Answers:
1) Double-check the weapon that is equipped. The Ki Strike 4/5 AB bonus should be appended onto the weapons rather than the character itself
2) Intended for now, but open to suggestions on what the general epic feats can be other than improved methods
3) I haven't thought about Avariels and Vigilance Vigilantes yet, but I welcome any input from the community and will discuss it internally with the other devs.

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Quidix » Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:46 pm

Kenji wrote:
Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:53 am
1) Double-check the weapon that is equipped. The Ki Strike 4/5 AB bonus should be appended onto the weapons rather than the character itself
I tested by checking the combat logs, and I can also confirm it does not apply on the weapon when equipping it (though PGCC has not reset for 3 days). Checked on several different weapons and characters. I'll check again after PGCC reset.

Added: PGCC reset and it's still a problem, ie no bonus (even made a fresh character to make sure).

Kenji wrote:
Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:53 am
2) Intended for now, but open to suggestions on what the general epic feats can be other than improved methods
I think the following are very thematic:
- Ki Strike 4/5 (given Ki Strike 1/2/3 is a part of the class progression)
- ESF and SF in Spot / Hide & MS / Bluff / Intimidate / Sail / Climb (given skill bonuses from the different paths)
- Improved Sneak attack (given sneak progression)
- Evasion, Skill Mastery, Slippery Mind, Crippling Strike (as different paths access them; I'd not suggest improved evasion and defensive roll as those given access to epic dodge)

Beyond those, I'd always enjoy access to the general feats like epic prowess, armor skin and EWF, but they're not specifically thematic.

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Svrtr » Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:43 pm

As is, vigilante as a class as a whole gets brawler and pugilist for free, but the fact that signature weapon working on fists is unintentional feels anti-synergistic, especially as then you lose quite a bit of AB, going from the 48-50 range when focusing on it to the approximately 46-48 dependent on race.

Gaining the feats for unarmed but being unable to use one of the key core class methods to improve your melee on them feels unpleasant, and so unless there are plans to add some weapon such as a cestus as was briefly mentioned in passing on the discord that can be a signature weapon for unarmed builds, it seems unnecessary to bar specifically unarmed from signature weapon usage.

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Rowlind Salem » Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:27 pm

just messing around with a 6/7/17 fighter/wm/vigilante with freedom oath signature weapon and gruesome technique methods maxed out.

pretty fun, pretty strong. a full bab class with tumble is nothing to sneeze at. the sneaks aren't that much extra damage and I didn't mess with the traps much but that fear effect is really powerful in pve on pgcc.

having open lock/disable trap as a class skill is really really nice too

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Rowlind Salem » Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:46 pm

just did another run with vigilance path and improved complex devices, but all my grenade DC's are stuck at 15. Shouldn't they be scaling with vigilante levels? (17 on this toon)

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Svrtr » Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:32 pm

Unless there are plans for vigi studded leathers, would consideration be given to making elven chain out as light armor for the fist feats?

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by jomonog » Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:36 am

I just realised Liberator doesnt get ki strike 3 like Vigilante does, yet it gets Brawler and Pugilist as feats. If its encouraged to use unarmed feats then shouldn't it also get the same ki strike progression as Vig or is this intended?

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Helsing » Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:37 am

jomonog wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:36 am
I just realised Liberator doesnt get ki strike 3 like Vigilante does, yet it gets Brawler and Pugilist as feats. If its encouraged to use unarmed feats then shouldn't it also get the same ki strike progression as Vig or is this intended?
IMO liberator is a divine power user so give it Ki theme ability is very weird. Honestly I think they shouldn’t be grant brawler either, it should be a weapon user, like a chaotic version of Paladin.
Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by BurntGnome » Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:50 am

Shouldnt acid bombs proc the grenade fear? It doesnt seem to be, which would be odd if intentional.


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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Kythana » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:18 pm

Besides flavor reasons and alignment restriction, what is the reason you would play a Liberator over a BG?

Just comparing between a standard 7/7/16 Liberator build and a 8/5/17 Blackguard, the BG has one less AB, no KI critical and doesn't necessarily have extra smiting(unless you go Orog). But gains lots of other goodies, like a powerful summon, corrupt weapon , poisons, bull's strength.

At the moment, Liberator is effectively a worse Blackguard in every way.

I have heard a few suggestions, such as:

Give Liberator a couple extra bonus(non epic) feats to use on methods. Being able to pick up grenades on a WM build would make it slightly more competitive and worthwhile to go for over blackguard.

Add a summon to Liberator like blackguard, or an epic method that gives it access to a once per rest gate like ability.

I think it ultimately needs a little something extra to make it more appealing. An extra 1 AB, 2 threat range, and extra smiting isn't that strong compared to what Blackguard gets for free.


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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:26 am

Kythana wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:18 pm

Besides flavor reasons and alignment restriction, what is the reason you would play a Liberator over a BG?

The main reason is alignment, really. A Liberator as a dip is no different than a Blackguard.

Kythana wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:18 pm

Just comparing between a standard 7/7/16 Liberator build and a 8/5/17 Blackguard, the BG has one less AB, no KI critical and doesn't necessarily have extra smiting(unless you go Orog). But gains lots of other goodies, like a powerful summon, corrupt weapon , poisons, bull's strength.

At the moment, Liberator is effectively a worse Blackguard in every way.

I have heard a few suggestions, such as:

Give Liberator a couple extra bonus(non epic) feats to use on methods. Being able to pick up grenades on a WM build would make it slightly more competitive and worthwhile to go for over blackguard.

Add a summon to Liberator like blackguard, or an epic method that gives it access to a once per rest gate like ability.

I think it ultimately needs a little something extra to make it more appealing. An extra 1 AB, 2 threat range, and extra smiting isn't that strong compared to what Blackguard gets for free.

A deep Liberator does have Simple/Complex Experimental Device as bonus feats, which in turn offers access to Rogue Grenades (might need up to 19 levels of Liberator to make it worth it for non-rogues)

A summon will be a no-go for Liberators.

The build comparison there is limited to Weapon Master builds, which doesn't necessarily include the broader range of the builds the two divine PrCs would offer. However, I am interested in hearing more of these side-by-side comparisons and seeing where adjustments may best fit.


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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:09 am

I'm thinking about giving Liberators animal companions. If any existing liberator players (dedicated mainly, but dips are fine, too, present your build to me in private or in public, up to you) have any feedback, I'm all ears.

Also Vigilante’s Dirty Fighting prerequisite will be removed, it may have other requirement instead, such as higher BAB or further skill investments.


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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by WanderingPoet » Thu Sep 21, 2023 7:16 pm

Giving Liberator an animal companion would be very cool; and give it a better identity from paladin too.

I'm not currently maining the liberator, but a character I have in mind for next is 14 rogue/16 liberator (or 10 rogue/4 fighter/16 liberator, undecided). An animal companion would actually fit the idea very well.

Some thoughts though:

  • Would the animal companion scale differently? A level 20 animal companion wouldn't do all that much even with max liberator levels. Maybe every even Liberator level counts for double level for scaling? So a level 10 liberator would have a level 15 companion, a level 16 Liberator would have a level 24, and a 20 Liberator would have a 30th.
  • Would the liberator get access to awaken or greater magic fang to make the companion more useful? Maybe on summon it automatically gets GMF with a CL equal to the liberator level that lasts permanently? Then the Liberator can find another source of Awaken, like the ranger amulet.
Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by WanderingPoet » Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:19 am

What is Aura of Resolve going to do? I see it's still listed as TBD on the wiki. I'm guessing this is meant as the opposite of aura of despair?

Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Power Word, Haste » Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:35 am

Kenji wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:09 am

I'm thinking about giving Liberators animal companions. If any existing liberator players (dedicated mainly, but dips are fine, too, present your build to me in private or in public, up to you) have any feedback, I'm all ears.

Also Vigilante’s Dirty Fighting prerequisite will be removed, it may have other requirement instead, such as higher BAB or further skill investments.

I like this idea for certain flavors of Liberators, but it definitely wouldn't fit with them all. Sure, the other liberators could simply not summon it - but they are pretty powerful and it would feel really bad to have a strong animal companion available but you don't use it. This wouldn't be much different from how current blackguards who don't summon the fiend for RP reasons feel.


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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Kythana » Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:50 am

A summon will be a no-go for Liberators.

I'm thinking about giving Liberators animal companions.

Seems like it was pretty certain that Liberator wasn't going to receive a summon. What is the reason for the change?

Additionally, I think it would be thematically appropriate to open Liberator to CN. The class introduction and description fits with CN perfectly fine too imo.

Considering how strong Divine Synergy is compared to a div dip, I would like to see a niche open for a neutral divine martial to be a bit more viable. The only other option is warpiest, and that fulfills a different type of build(And is frankly, pretty terrible.).

Last edited by Kythana on Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:02 am

Kythana wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:50 am

What is the reason for the change?

John Wick

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:18 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:02 am
Kythana wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:50 am

What is the reason for the change?

John Wick

Yes, John Wick.

Vigilante/Liberator started out with being inspired from Constantine or Punisher Lonewolf concepts, and then John Wick came along (Sofia Al-Azwar and her hounds), so I reconsidered. 8-)

Looking at Blackguard, where the summon is a staple to the PrC itself, Liberator's approach to animal companion should be something more akin to Ranger's, where they can specialize in building into Beastmaster instead of martial prowess. This way, there's a semblance of choice and build diversity.

Whether or not the execution will match the intention is going to be a subject of discussion another time.


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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by WanderingPoet » Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:52 pm

What about making animal companion a technique choice for liberators, and giving them a couple more? Then it'd be more optional for liberators (and maybe vigilantes) to get one, or they can use the 2 more technique feats on some other techniques if it's not the flavour they're looking for.

Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Quidix » Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:55 am

I like the idea of giving liberators something more, as they are currently a worse BG.

If that's an animal companion, it would be good to address two material weaknesses: the lack of (i) blind fight, and (ii) will saves.

I also like the idea raised above, giving a choice between animal companion and some other martial boost.


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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by Wethrinea » Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:16 pm

With some experience playing melee Ranger that tried to lean into the beastmaster archetype, animal companions has a few issues:

  • They are strong up front at lower levels, but once summons starts to get immunities, the animal companions fall to the wayside as they have zero immunities.
  • What makes animal companions (Dire wolf and bear specifically) situationally useful at epic levels are the buffs they get from Call of the Wild and Bloodlust feats, as well as the DR from magical fang spell. Even with them, they require careful coordination to not be swatted in a few rounds. Or WoF/Banished.

Unless Liberators get access to these feats and the GMF spell, and somehow scale animal companions to comparable level (10 + liberator level?), they won't be much than RP cookies at best.

Then there is the other question: If Liberators get animal companions on the same level as Rangers, what will make Rangers unique among the martial classes?

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Re: Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

Post by eddymakaveli » Sat Sep 30, 2023 10:40 am

I've played a liberator for about 4 months now as my main, and the class itself has some things going for it but when compared to BG (Not paladin, since that's a full-30 class), it doesn't even come close to touching it.

For example, a level 16-20 BG would get, along with whatever other class they chose:

  • +4-6 Weapon

  • Contagion

  • Epic Fiendish Summon

  • Stacking Bull's Strength

  • Undead Summon

  • Substantially increased Arelith Custom Poison DC

  • Aura of Despair (Any non-mind immune enemies that enter the aura suffer a -2 penalty to saving throws for 1 minute (1 turn). The aura can be cast as an action as many times as the Blackguard likes and it lasts for 15 minutes (15 turns). The effects do not stack with itself.)

  • Bonus Language

Whereas a 16-20 Liberator would get:

  • Methods I & II (Likely used for signature weapon and imp. signature weapon)

  • Woodland Stride

  • Pugilist

  • Brawler

I don't think anyone in good conscience can say that these are even close to equitable. An animal companion that scaled poorly wouldn't cure this. Maybe a good-aligned BG summon equivalent would make up the gap but even then, there's a massive difference between the two. You may be able to take things like rogue grenades or other methods, but those come at the cost of core effectiveness and aren't baked into the class as BG has it.

If you're going to add anything to Liberator, I'd ask you to look at things that make the classes more similar in positives. A stacking +4 to either STR/DEX/CHA that turns to hours/level, or a +5 Barkskin akin to Oath of Ancients paladin - to pair with woodland stride, maybe the Epic Celestial Summon custom feat or something that gives a nice good-aligned summon. Or something like an hours/level weapon buff, be it an enchantment bonus or a 1d10 deafening clang that lasts hours/level. Or baking in more methods as core class features and not just optional feats that can be taken.


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