Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

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Kenji
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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:01 am

Aberration, Fey, and Outsiders do not get affected by Dirty Fighting at the moment. If anyone has any lore sources indicating they are susceptible to physical ailments, I'd be interested to know.

The current exception to Aberration being able to be affected is Sand in the Eyes and Beholders.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by xanrael » Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:17 am

Kenji wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:01 am
Aberration, Fey, and Outsiders do not get affected by Dirty Fighting at the moment. If anyone has any lore sources indicating they are susceptible to physical ailments, I'd be interested to know.

The current exception to Aberration being able to be affected is Sand in the Eyes and Beholders.
From the 3.5 Type and Subtype Listings:
Fey and outsiders can be stunned from physical attacks (something like a construct, undead, ooze etc specifically call this out as being immune). Fey need to eat, sleep, and breath. Outsiders breath. They can catch diseases and get sick as they lack immunity to it.

From descriptions and pretty much any book featuring them:
The ones that have eyes need them to see and have been described as looking with them. Fey would also be similarly affected by a "low blow" for the same reasons a human would be.

While some of this is true for aberrations, a lot of them do not have humanoid/animal shaped bodies and organs so there are probably more exceptions than not so makes sense that they'd be immune as long as it's not Harkle Harpell fighting them.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Good Character » Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:17 pm

Really dig the Dirty Fighting change. I was mildly hesistant on the -4 AB, but I think I can see it work inconjuction of stealth mechanics (flat-footing someone) or Taunt if you're a plate-user.

Really excited for the hilariously cheesy fist/shield plate build; a real Capitan America-vibe to it. Sadly, I figure the AC will be so-so without some sort of help.

The mandatory Bluff requirement seems slightly out of place; it works to fill some some stereotypes of the class in similar fashion as Batman, but not others that would be like the Punisher.

I say make the requirement 6 Bluff or 6 Intimidation or 6 Taunt.

Explanations for why one of those three could work:

Bluff - The same laws that bound the innocent and defenseless to tyranny are the same that would see your closest friends and allies in shackles or worse. To prevent this, you must hide your identity from your objectors.

Intimidation - Long have the wicked and established forgotten the taste of fear. They have hidden safely behind their laws and walls issuing brutality. You will seek to remind them.

Taunt - You are the people's champion. You know pummeling the villanous guard in the streets will yield only disdain, wariness, and distrust even from the guard's own victims. So, you are guile, cunning - allow yourself to be attacked first then strike.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by WanderingPoet » Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:03 pm

Kenji wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:15 am
Oh I see! I entirely misunderstood that as levels of vigilante rather than BAB, for some reason. That makes a lot more sense! I can see why 15BAB is a big milestone.

Does it get any weapon or armour proficiencies? I realize that they get UBAB, but monks also get proficiencies.

Appreciate the answers!
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Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
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From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:42 am

Kenji wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:15 am
Given 16+ pre-epic BAB, a monk can achieve 6 APR with the -3 AB regression. Haste would then give it an extra attack at the highest AB, achieving 7 APR.

The scripted approach takes 16+ pre-epic BAB with 4 APR into account. It proceeds to give 2 scripted APR that goes into the Haste AB regression, thereby achieving 4 APR with 3 extra Haste APR, a total of 7. 4 of them will be on -5 AB regression, and 3 will be on the Haste's -5 AB progression separate from the original 4 APR.
Okay.
That's why it's not broken op. Not because you drop 2 ab from an early-ish attack and gain 2 ab on a later attack. Yeah it looks interesting.
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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Hazard » Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:51 am

xanrael wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:17 am
Kenji wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:01 am
Aberration, Fey, and Outsiders do not get affected by Dirty Fighting at the moment. If anyone has any lore sources indicating they are susceptible to physical ailments, I'd be interested to know.

The current exception to Aberration being able to be affected is Sand in the Eyes and Beholders.
From the 3.5 Type and Subtype Listings:
Fey and outsiders can be stunned from physical attacks (something like a construct, undead, ooze etc specifically call this out as being immune). Fey need to eat, sleep, and breath. Outsiders breath. They can catch diseases and get sick as they lack immunity to it.

From descriptions and pretty much any book featuring them:
The ones that have eyes need them to see and have been described as looking with them. Fey would also be similarly affected by a "low blow" for the same reasons a human would be.

While some of this is true for aberrations, a lot of them do not have humanoid/animal shaped bodies and organs so there are probably more exceptions than not so makes sense that they'd be immune as long as it's not Harkle Harpell fighting them.
Interesting, on Arelith pixies do not need to eat or drink .. and are 'immortal', but the wiki says they only live to 300 years old and are herbivores.
Last edited by Hazard on Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:54 am

Hazard wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:51 am
xanrael wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:17 am
Kenji wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:01 am
Aberration, Fey, and Outsiders do not get affected by Dirty Fighting at the moment. If anyone has any lore sources indicating they are susceptible to physical ailments, I'd be interested to know.

The current exception to Aberration being able to be affected is Sand in the Eyes and Beholders.
From the 3.5 Type and Subtype Listings:
Fey and outsiders can be stunned from physical attacks (something like a construct, undead, ooze etc specifically call this out as being immune). Fey need to eat, sleep, and breath. Outsiders breath. They can catch diseases and get sick as they lack immunity to it.

From descriptions and pretty much any book featuring them:
The ones that have eyes need them to see and have been described as looking with them. Fey would also be similarly affected by a "low blow" for the same reasons a human would be.

While some of this is true for aberrations, a lot of them do not have humanoid/animal shaped bodies and organs so there are probably more exceptions than not so makes sense that they'd be immune as long as it's not Harkle Harpell fighting them.
Interesting, on Arelith pixies do not need to eat or drink .. and are 'immortal', but the wiki says they only live to 300 years old and a herbivores. Which is it then?
Sounds to me all fey should now be forced to have food meters and can only replenish said meter with fruits and nuts, not the usual meal kits or fish.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Hazard » Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:56 am

Kenji wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:54 am
Hazard wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:51 am
xanrael wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:17 am


From the 3.5 Type and Subtype Listings:
Fey and outsiders can be stunned from physical attacks (something like a construct, undead, ooze etc specifically call this out as being immune). Fey need to eat, sleep, and breath. Outsiders breath. They can catch diseases and get sick as they lack immunity to it.

From descriptions and pretty much any book featuring them:
The ones that have eyes need them to see and have been described as looking with them. Fey would also be similarly affected by a "low blow" for the same reasons a human would be.

While some of this is true for aberrations, a lot of them do not have humanoid/animal shaped bodies and organs so there are probably more exceptions than not so makes sense that they'd be immune as long as it's not Harkle Harpell fighting them.
Interesting, on Arelith pixies do not need to eat or drink .. and are 'immortal', but the wiki says they only live to 300 years old and a herbivores. Which is it then?
Sounds to me all fey should now be forced to have food meters and can only replenish said meter with fruits and nuts, not the usual meal kits or fish.
:twisted:
yesss.
YESS.
share the suffering.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Eldariash » Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:31 pm

I see a point in vigi's stealth play.

Bluff, Open lock, MS, Hide, Disarm trap, even sleight of hands.

In these elements the vigi is a pure upgrade to any rogueish type.
Rogueish have no bonus to these skills with the exception of movement and leaving stealth AB.
A thing that only matters for combat, RP focussed rogueish taking SF and ESF in the above skills aren't combat focussed.

Yet the vigi can do all the same and has a disguise bonus.
Dip in specialist for extra ESF feats once you got the epic disguise bonus and you still have +2 epic feats.
+4 normal epics so you could do ESF in all the skills + disguise bonus.

This one puts RP spy/infiltration rogueishes at well even more useless status cause you just go 13-14 vigi 6 specialist.

So they preform equal on all fields but just better at disguises than a rogue can who has this as his toolkit?

So the main question: Is the disguise bonus added to softcap, if not how high can it go.
If it is softcapped its managable I guess is like a pocket bard for disguises.
This also adds in dangers with how high can spots go? Is the cap so high no one can find out about them? Will we then buff spot to make rogues even more weak. Counterplay is important but putting one class higher then raising the counterplay to it means the lower ones suffer too.

TLDR Possibility for SF+ESF+Epic rep disquise with new strenghtening disguises (hard/soft?) and access to all the sneak stuff makes me doubt if its a good plan.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Hazard » Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:20 pm

Yeah. Uhm. Looking at this worries me a bit.
Class seems really cool and all, but rogue is already pointless and weak. Bard is a better rogue than rogue, and now it looks like vigilante will also be a better rogue than rogue. What is rogue for?

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:53 pm

Few things about Rogue.

Rogue is weak. I personally dont find any appeal in this class anymore. It is only good for easily leveling with a pocket guard and farming traps for exp. Rogue is no longer the best Rogue in the game and hasnt been for a while.

Rogue is popular. I have no idea why, but it has high play rate (or at least had high play rates last time I saw the graph just before invoker's release). Go figure...

It's clear to me that the team has higher interest in making new classes than working on old ones as long as they dont leave things bugged and broken. Hence, Vigilante.

I would like to see Rogue's grenades reworked into usefulness and Rogue should be mostly fine, imo.
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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:01 am

Hazard wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:20 pm
Yeah. Uhm. Looking at this worries me a bit.
Class seems really cool and all, but rogue is already pointless and weak. Bard is a better rogue than rogue, and now it looks like vigilante will also be a better rogue than rogue. What is rogue for?
I have whined and moaned about the rogue quite a bit on these boards, so I've been worried about this class too.

My first thought was "at least we have a monopoly on crippling strike", as this is pretty much the closest thing we have to a niche in PvP. But vigis are getting this too. The power disparity goes beyond a tiny bit of dev favoritism, it's massive beyond any kind of reasonable dispute.

If you think this class is balanced compared to other classes in general there's no problem in going forward with these plans. But the rogue needs some serious buffs afterward.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Hazard » Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:34 am

Waldo52 wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:01 am
The power disparity . . . it's massive beyond any kind of reasonable dispute.
I feel exactly the same way, and I don't want to whine on the forums or derail this thread, but it's kind of hard not to address this.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:26 am

Those who believe Rogues are weak or Vigilantes are overtaking Rogue's functions, here are some basic comparisons:

Rogue 24 / Ftr 6
Epic Dodge, Sneak Attack 12d6, Uncanny Dodge 7, Crippling Strike, All Grenades, UMD
2 bonus feats can be: Epic Feats, Slippery Mind, and/or Skill Mastery
Missing: Increased Crit Multiplier
Gains: 2d6 SA, UD 6 & 7, all grenades beyond Disjunction, and 3 or 4 pre-epic feats w/o needing to qualify for WM

Rogue 19 / Ftr 6 / WM 5 (Baseline for comparison)
Epic Dodge, Sneak Attack 10d6, Uncanny Dodge 5, Crippling Strike, Increased Crit Multiplier, Grenades up to Disjunction and Acid, UMD
1 bonus feat can be: Epic Feat, Slippery Mind, or Skill Mastery

Freedom Vig 19 / Ftr 6 / WM 5
Epic Dodge, Sneak Attack 6d6, Uncanny Dodge 4, Increased Crit Multiplier, AoE Fear on Kill
Extra Methods can be: Chosen Weapon, Dirty Fighting Upgrade, and/or Devices (similar to grenades but with a longer cooldown and not spammable)
The above methods can be 2 improved variants 1 epic feat, all 4 regular variants but with 1 improved, or 1 improved, 1 regular, and 2 epic feats.
Missing: UMD, 4d6 SA, UD 5, and Crippling Strike
Gains: higher AB, versatility, and build freedom

Vindication Vig 19 / Ftr 6 / WM 5
Sneak Attack 10d6, Uncanny Dodge 1, Crippling Strike, Increased Crit Multiplier, Dirty Fighting Upgrade
Extra Methods can be: Chosen Weapon, AoE Fear on Kill, or Device (similar to grenades but with longer cooldown and not spammable)
Missing: UMD, UD 2 to 5, Epic Dodge
Gains: higher AB, versatility, and build freedom
Hazard wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:34 am
Waldo52 wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:01 am
The power disparity . . . it's massive beyond any kind of reasonable dispute.
I feel exactly the same way, and I don't want to whine on the forums or derail this thread, but it's kind of hard not to address this.
Given that only the Vindication Vigilantes can obtain Crippling Strike, can you both elaborate on why "the power disparity is massive beyond dispute" other than one's feelings?

Something to note is that causes are unique. One vigilante can not have 2 causes. Just because one path has Crippling Strike does not necessarily mean other Vigilante paths automatically get it. One needs to look at these individual paths as they are: individual progression. Not all of them get everything listed on the spreadsheet.

Suppose anyone still truly feels vigilantes will overtake Rogues in every way. In that case, one can always go on the PGCC right now and test Vigilantes against Rogues and other competitions like vs. mobs or other classes. Provide concrete details, builds, and evidence to support your claim.

The one case that can be made here, by myself even, is that Rogues lack in that build diversity, whereas Vigilante will simply enjoy more. Vigilantes will also likely gain 2 to 4 AB more than Rogues but at the cost of defensive feats and/or better methods of inducing flat-foot.

For reference purposes, Devices will be slightly inferior to Grenades in terms of function (DC, duration) and availability (cooldown, spammability). They will also not be as needy in terms of upkeep and maintenance (QoL).

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Hazard » Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:09 am

Kenji wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:26 am
Those who believe Rogues are weak or Vigilantes are overtaking Rogue's functions, here are some basic comparisons:

Rogue 24 / Ftr 6
Epic Dodge, Sneak Attack 12d6, Uncanny Dodge 7, Crippling Strike, All Grenades, UMD
2 bonus feats can be: Epic Feats, Slippery Mind, and/or Skill Mastery
Missing: Increased Crit Multiplier
Gains: 2d6 SA, UD 6 & 7, all grenades beyond Disjunction, and 3 or 4 pre-epic feats w/o needing to qualify for WM

Rogue 19 / Ftr 6 / WM 5 (Baseline for comparison)
Epic Dodge, Sneak Attack 10d6, Uncanny Dodge 5, Crippling Strike, Increased Crit Multiplier, Grenades up to Disjunction and Acid, UMD
1 bonus feat can be: Epic Feat, Slippery Mind, or Skill Mastery

Freedom Vig 19 / Ftr 6 / WM 5
Epic Dodge, Sneak Attack 6d6, Uncanny Dodge 4, Increased Crit Multiplier, AoE Fear on Kill
Extra Methods can be: Chosen Weapon, Dirty Fighting Upgrade, and/or Devices (similar to grenades but with a longer cooldown and not spammable)
The above methods can be 2 improved variants 1 epic feat, all 4 regular variants but with 1 improved, or 1 improved, 1 regular, and 2 epic feats.
Missing: UMD, 4d6 SA, UD 5, and Crippling Strike
Gains: higher AB, versatility, and build freedom

Vindication Vig 19 / Ftr 6 / WM 5
Sneak Attack 10d6, Uncanny Dodge 1, Crippling Strike, Increased Crit Multiplier, Dirty Fighting Upgrade
Extra Methods can be: Chosen Weapon, AoE Fear on Kill, or Device (similar to grenades but with longer cooldown and not spammable)
Missing: UMD, UD 2 to 5, Epic Dodge
Gains: higher AB, versatility, and build freedom
Hazard wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:34 am
Waldo52 wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:01 am
The power disparity . . . it's massive beyond any kind of reasonable dispute.
I feel exactly the same way, and I don't want to whine on the forums or derail this thread, but it's kind of hard not to address this.
Given that only the Vindication Vigilantes can obtain Crippling Strike, can you both elaborate on why "the power disparity is massive beyond dispute" other than one's feelings?

Something to note is that causes are unique. One vigilante can not have 2 causes. Just because one path has Crippling Strike does not necessarily mean other Vigilante paths automatically get it. One needs to look at these individual paths as they are: individual progression. Not all of them get everything listed on the spreadsheet.

Suppose anyone still truly feels vigilantes will overtake Rogues in every way. In that case, one can always go on the PGCC right now and test Vigilantes against Rogues and other competitions like vs. mobs or other classes. Provide concrete details, builds, and evidence to support your claim.

The one case that can be made here, by myself even, is that Rogues lack in that build diversity, whereas Vigilante will simply enjoy more. Vigilantes will also likely gain 2 to 4 AB more than Rogues but at the cost of defensive feats and/or better methods of inducing flat-foot.

For reference purposes, Devices will be slightly inferior to Grenades in terms of function (DC, duration) and availability (cooldown, spammability). They will also not be as needy in terms of upkeep and maintenance (QoL).
I feel like the higher AB, versatility and stealth (that you outlined) is what makes vigi "better rogue than rogue". The fact other classes are so comparable to rogue without being rogues is annoying enough considering what a bad place rogues are in atm.

The 'massive power disparity' I believe was Rogues vs Most Other Classes, not Vigilantes specifically. Vigilante doesn't seem OP, but it does seem like a better rogue. It even has stealth bonuses. Rogues don't even get stealth bonuses. It has higher AB, rogues suffer from low AB.

You mention rogues not being weak. You've explained why they can be compared to Vigi, but can you explain why you think a low AB, feat starved, skill starved, low AC, class isn't weak? Please try to use a rogue against most current builds and see what counterplayers you can come up with besides "ambush them in larger numbers" which could work just as well for a group of commoners with gonnes.

You also mentioned 'full grenades'. Okay. But grenades are useless and harm you just as much as the enemy.
The best grenade isn't even exclusive to rogues, it's acid bombs and anyone can use them. Rogues get a bit more damage out of them, but it's hardly anything worth building into.

It would just be nice if rogues had something they were the best at that fit the rogue class fantasy and not 'shield tank grenadier'.
I don't know about you, but when I imagine a rogue in my mind in a fantasy setting the default image conjured up isn't a 'shield tank grenadier'. We wanna stab stuff and be sneaky and do shady crap.

You can get much higher rogue skills on a bard while at the same time being able to detect all characters with 100% uptime and helps others to as well, and now vigi also gets stealth bonus at times. Rogue doesn't get a single +hide/ms at any point in their progression.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Shadowy Reality » Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:10 am

I would argue a higher AB is a pretty good thing and what makes them better, AB is king. As mentioned, grenades aren't all that great, they are situational at best.

This is the game reason why some assassin builds are superior, with 15 levels you get 3 AB, leaving you with 15 levels to play with, whereas Rogue needs 24 levels, leaving you with 6.

Noticed how out of all the builds meantioned, the Rogue 24 / Ftr 6 is the worse one by far.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Eldariash » Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:11 am

I'll elaborate on the disparity the problem is in arleith being a RP server builds are not just for PvP PvE combat.

I'd argue the vigi seems weak in my eyes on that point even but thats cause then I'd compare it against other builds not just rogue.

The third build type is RP enabling builds that add mechanics to your roleplay. Divination's / LM's Scry is a clear cut example of something that has 0 use in any combat setting. (Well you could know ther numbers in advance and run or fight but thats more of a do i combat or not combat rather than an effect that changes the combat result like AB or AC is)

The build I'll bring up is a spymaster rogue its currently set to drow but it's due to the alignment more valid for halflings for example. But i'll keep it in drow cause I have the numbers.

Rogue 24 Cleric 3 Specialist 3

Basic feats: Stealthy, SF's: MS/H, Open, Disarm, Bluff, Sleight (one spare)
Epic feats: ESF's MS/H, Open, Disarm, Bluff, Sleight and epic rep (all used)
Stat line base dex 22 (gift) int 12 Cha 18 Str 10 maxed to 40 dex 24 int 30 cha (3stat focus build)
Gift of language

Skills + explenation of RP
Bluff - Disguises for if the sneaky stuff is detected and to make track details harder
33 skill+ 21 feats+ 10 ability+ 0-50 buffs and gear sits at cap of 114
Disarm trap - Quarters goal 127 (bard support needed)
33 skill+ 20 Take 20 roll+ 17 feats+ 7 ability+ 0-50 buffs and gear sits at cap of 127
Hide/MS - Stealth play + track play
33 skill+ 19 feats+ 15 ability+ 0-50 buffs and gear sits at cap of 117
Open lock - Quarters goal 127 (bard support needed)
33 skill+ 20 take 20 roll+ 17 feats+ 15 ability+ 0-50 buffs and gear sits at cap of 135
(This is a hint upgrade your traps too its harder to do than open lock for a bard / sneaky duo)
Sleight of hands - Hides the proof of quarter break notification. Planting evidence has no effect if they know the door's been messed with a very underrated skill!
33 skill+ 17 feats+ 15 ability+ 0-50 buffs and gear sits at cap of 115

Actual mechanical benefits to the above from the build:
+2 Cleric dip +MS rogue + sneak grenades but it needs a bard anyways so the grenades are nullified by bard song. I'll stress again this build gives no shits about the grenades. Reason to take rogue? More skillpoints go brrr for listen spot? Movespeed in stealth. Ofc thieves Can't is a rogue bonus I guess.

A vigilante 13-14+6 specialist and third class like rogue for skillp, or even cleric for the +2's has:
7 non epic feats 6 epic feats so matches feats 100%
Can take identical stat line 100%
Can take identical gifts 100%
Can chose the same skills just doesnt have as much left over skill points but is still able to do the entire above rack of skills. 100%

- Has disguise growing over power if hardcap lets say +10 they can reach disguise 124!
- If softcap as i said before than its manageable as it just replaces bard. But even this is strong since: The vigi can spy on convo's under hideMS disguised without a second person the Rogue the spy the sneak needs a bard to match the disguise!

Hardcap has the added danger of how valid is counterplay things need counterplay.

It is just an upgrade to a RP build I know more people have and like than they'd like to admit.

Side note: Its not this builds goal to just steal and loot. But to spy, gather intell place evidence find evidence break into quarters before meetings to bypass the @ door True seeing's,... for allot it needs a second player non stop when this should be a one man job. This is the reason sneaks feel lackluster in RP. (Your entire RP can be broken by a single unlucky true sight, and listen being so high up there the risk reward is not there. Want to make rogue less lackluster this is the issue on a side note for RP rogues.) There shouldn't be the constant need for bard support for this build to do what it does. And now a class comes that already loses the need for bard on a part of its kit! And i'll itterate again if hardcap increase wich it seems to be since it wont add into the skill windows softcap. Big issues with counterplay and the max it can reach!

If you wish to change nothing to the class and keep it as a combat viable build that has disguise remove its access to some class feats so another dip would be needed destabilizing the build. And make it unable to access the SF ESF Bluff if it has hardcap. To prevent the bar from raising. Or give rogues the growing disguise too but as free for deep rogue investment like 24-28. But know it'll make all these builds immune to being disguise broken except but the most ludicrous unplayed builds. (compared to how played RP rogue is)

And just cause I can't help myself right now cause I'm invested hehe:
True seeing kills all meeting room spy RP! Ward+ True seeing is immune to spy make scry wards prevent true sight! And give quarters multiple ways in two doors with a distance so there is a way to get in without pre emptivly entering the targets known favorite discussion place and hope they show up while your already hiding inside. (To just still be outed by a true sight xD)

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Eldariash » Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:23 am

On a seperate post I would like to bring attention that my issue is not the only thing to consider nor the most important. People will adapt. And to bring thanks to Kenji for working on a new toy for us.

The critisism does not mean you guys and your work ain't nothing short of amazing!

Wanted this to not be lost on the wall of text above and really be noticed! Kenji thank you!
And in a larger note all of areliths crew and even players thanks for the fun times even if we all sometimes have our issues xD

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Hazard » Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:39 am

Eldariash wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:23 am
On a seperate post I would like to bring attention that my issue is not the only thing to consider nor the most important. People will adapt. And to bring thanks to Kenji for working on a new toy for us.

The critisism does not mean you guys and your work ain't nothing short of amazing!

Wanted this to not be lost on the wall of text above and really be noticed! Kenji thank you!
And in a larger note all of areliths crew and even players thanks for the fun times even if we all sometimes have our issues xD
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Kenji
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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:02 am

Hazard wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:09 am
I feel like the higher AB, versatility and stealth (that you outlined) is what makes vigi "better rogue than rogue". The fact other classes are so comparable to rogue without being rogues is annoying enough considering what a bad place rogues are in atm.

The 'massive power disparity' I believe was Rogues vs Most Other Classes, not Vigilantes specifically. Vigilante doesn't seem OP, but it does seem like a better rogue. It even has stealth bonuses. Rogues don't even get stealth bonuses. It has higher AB, rogues suffer from low AB.

It would just be nice if rogues had something they were the best at that fit the rogue class fantasy and not 'shield tank grenadier'.
I don't know about you, but when I imagine a rogue in my mind in a fantasy setting the default image conjured up isn't a 'shield tank grenadier'. We wanna stab stuff and be sneaky and do shady crap.

You can get much higher rogue skills on a bard while at the same time being able to detect all characters with 100% uptime and helps others to as well, and now vigi also gets stealth bonus at times. Rogue doesn't get a single +hide/ms at any point in their progression.
I've separated this from the other text as it is mainly aimed at the visions of design, which can subjectively vary from person to person. The emphasis appears to be "being a Rogue" instead of the mechanical class "Rogue."

Rogue as a class caters to many flavors of roleplay: a thief, a treasure hunter, a bounty hunter, a scout, an enforcer, a black marketeer, a smuggler, an adventurer, a pickpocket, an acrobat, a sailor, or a grenadier. The list can go on. The point is that rogues are very flexible in terms of interpretation.

However, our mechanics side of things may not reflect that much as PnP usually enables. I recognize that much.

You have the desired way of playing a rogue and also a desire of NOT being forced to play a rogue a certain way, and that's okay. However, the vision of Rogues being confined to "stab stuff and be sneaky and do shady crap." and "not shield tank grenadier" can be tunnel-visioned when Rogue is a base class that can and should cater to much more. Assassins should fit that particular description well.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Hazard » Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:32 am

Kenji wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:02 am
Hazard wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:09 am
I feel like the higher AB, versatility and stealth (that you outlined) is what makes vigi "better rogue than rogue". The fact other classes are so comparable to rogue without being rogues is annoying enough considering what a bad place rogues are in atm.

The 'massive power disparity' I believe was Rogues vs Most Other Classes, not Vigilantes specifically. Vigilante doesn't seem OP, but it does seem like a better rogue. It even has stealth bonuses. Rogues don't even get stealth bonuses. It has higher AB, rogues suffer from low AB.

It would just be nice if rogues had something they were the best at that fit the rogue class fantasy and not 'shield tank grenadier'.
I don't know about you, but when I imagine a rogue in my mind in a fantasy setting the default image conjured up isn't a 'shield tank grenadier'. We wanna stab stuff and be sneaky and do shady crap.

You can get much higher rogue skills on a bard while at the same time being able to detect all characters with 100% uptime and helps others to as well, and now vigi also gets stealth bonus at times. Rogue doesn't get a single +hide/ms at any point in their progression.
I've separated this from the other text as it is mainly aimed at the visions of design, which can subjectively vary from person to person. The emphasis appears to be "being a Rogue" instead of the mechanical class "Rogue."

Rogue as a class caters to many flavors of roleplay: a thief, a treasure hunter, a bounty hunter, a scout, an enforcer, a black marketeer, a smuggler, an adventurer, a pickpocket, an acrobat, a sailor, or a grenadier. The list can go on. The point is that rogues are very flexible in terms of interpretation.

However, our mechanics side of things may not reflect that much as PnP usually enables. I recognize that much.

You have the desired way of playing a rogue and also a desire of NOT being forced to play a rogue a certain way, and that's okay. However, the vision of Rogues being confined to "stab stuff and be sneaky and do shady crap." and "not shield tank grenadier" can be tunnel-visioned when Rogue is a base class that can and should cater to much more. Assassins should fit that particular description well.
Thanks for understanding. You're right, but then with assassin there's a whole bunch of other things that come along with it. Like, assassinating people and an evil requirement (and no longer having enough skill points for the more classically roguey things).

It's not that rogue as it is can't do the stuff we want rogue to do. We just wish it was better at it. Better than say, a class that isn't a rogue. Like bard.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Eldariash » Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:45 am

Kenji wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:02 am
Hazard wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:09 am
I feel like the higher AB, versatility and stealth (that you outlined) is what makes vigi "better rogue than rogue". The fact other classes are so comparable to rogue without being rogues is annoying enough considering what a bad place rogues are in atm.

The 'massive power disparity' I believe was Rogues vs Most Other Classes, not Vigilantes specifically. Vigilante doesn't seem OP, but it does seem like a better rogue. It even has stealth bonuses. Rogues don't even get stealth bonuses. It has higher AB, rogues suffer from low AB.

It would just be nice if rogues had something they were the best at that fit the rogue class fantasy and not 'shield tank grenadier'.
I don't know about you, but when I imagine a rogue in my mind in a fantasy setting the default image conjured up isn't a 'shield tank grenadier'. We wanna stab stuff and be sneaky and do shady crap.

You can get much higher rogue skills on a bard while at the same time being able to detect all characters with 100% uptime and helps others to as well, and now vigi also gets stealth bonus at times. Rogue doesn't get a single +hide/ms at any point in their progression.
I've separated this from the other text as it is mainly aimed at the visions of design, which can subjectively vary from person to person. The emphasis appears to be "being a Rogue" instead of the mechanical class "Rogue."
But only looking at the vision you have for it is too limited people will be using it for all sorts. I hope you don't mean to dismiss points cause it doesn't match what the goal of vigi is? To consider more (yes subjective) visions is the enitre point of feedback? Vigi isn't goaled to be a pure RP spy. Should we ignore its capability's as such? This leads into dangers of making something but breaking another by not considering it. Nothing is stand alone. Or am I misunderstanding this sentance it strikes my eyes.
Kenji wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:02 am
Rogue as a class caters to many flavors of roleplay: a thief, a treasure hunter, a bounty hunter, a scout, an enforcer, a black marketeer, a smuggler, an adventurer, a pickpocket, an acrobat, a sailor, or a grenadier. The list can go on. The point is that rogues are very flexible in terms of interpretation.

However, our mechanics side of things may not reflect that much as PnP usually enables. I recognize that much.

You have the desired way of playing a rogue and also a desire of NOT being forced to play a rogue a certain way, and that's okay. However, the vision of Rogues being confined to "stab stuff and be sneaky and do shady crap." and "not shield tank grenadier" can be tunnel-visioned when Rogue is a base class that can and should cater to much more. Assassins should fit that particular description well.
I think this boils down to rogues have options. No one is saying remove the "sield tank grenadier" people are saying the shield tank grenadier is lackluster, stab stuff is weak, and sneaky and shady crap where it semi competed (bards... xD) it now even loses cause vigis just do it better. I'd argue there is not a single build that I'd take rogue for anymore. The fact assassin is behind a token and some things mechanically demand rogue levels is protecting rogues from being fased out xD But those are losing power fast.

But thats rogues problem. For vigi the question is should its "rogueish kit" be so strong? Are we fine with the possible power creep. (At mimimal getting to be on par with rogue+bard support) at worst new ceilings in hardcap.

Bring skill points down, prevent SF ESF bluff, remove some class skills to force another dip to destabilize. To keep the power creep on rogueish field down. Or be prepared to be better than rakshasha bluffers xD (Rakshasha vigi anyone!)

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Good Character » Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:01 pm

Curious if rather this wasn't a separate class but maybe a set of paths for rogue would people be happy with that?

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Quidix » Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:01 pm

This does not seem the place to discuss rogue, whether or not it is weak in the current meta (it probably is) and if it is due for a rework.

Even if it was, that is then no reason to balance Viligante against it.

Reworking Viligante to fit into rogue as a base class seems like a huge undertaking, and I'm unclear what the benefits are?

Thank you for all the work Kenji.

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Re: Vigilante Feedback Thread

Post by Hazard » Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:34 pm

Quidix wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:01 pm
This does not seem the place to discuss rogue, whether or not it is weak in the current meta (it probably is) and if it is due for a rework.

Even if it was, that is then no reason to balance Viligante against it.

Reworking Viligante to fit into rogue as a base class seems like a huge undertaking, and I'm unclear what the benefits are?

Thank you for all the work Kenji.
You're right. It's a total derail, even after I said I didn't want to derail. Sorry guys. My bad.

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