Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

[AstralUniverse]

Liberator should get signature weapon for free at some pre-epic lvl, like 6 or around that, and improved signature weapon exactly on lvl 17, also for free.
Cheers.

[Chloe123]

After looking at the class description, I think Liberator is inferior to Blackguard in almost all aspect. I'm not good at powerbuilding, but liberator is just like a plain chaotic good paladin that missing oaths and spells. Yes they get some free bonus method but in epic these methods has to be pick with epic bonus feat so that's not "free".

[hugolino]

The alignment restriction was put in place before the split between liberators and vigilante. Perhaps vigilante can be opened up to non-lawful evil characters, or characters of all alignments.

If anyone wants to make an argument for or against lifting the vigilante alignment restrictions, I’m all ears.

In my opinion, real life and literary vigilantes only seem to have non-lawful in common as far as alignment.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... gilanteMan

But the flavor text for the Vigilante class on Arelith in general appears non-lawful and non-evil; whereas the Cause of Vindication flavor text in particular suggests to me only a non-lawful alignment. After all, the vindicator's tactics can "perhaps" be more shocking than those of the tyrant they oppose, according to the cause's flavor text. Upon that "perhaps" may hang where a particular vindictive vigilante sits on the good-evil spectrum I think. It doesn't seem good if a vigilante is outdoing a villain or tyrant in evil for the purpose of opposing evil. ("He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche) All that being said, flavor text can be changed.

I do feel that non-lawful definitely has to remain as an alignment restriction, and I do agree that we could use more non-evil classes. Maybe allowing the most ruthless of the Vigilante causes to be any non-lawful alignment might be a reasonable concession to those who find good (or neutrality) boring. Or maybe the class should just become non-lawful only. But I think either change shouldn't alter the current overall flavor of the Vigilante.

I think this class could lend itself well into playing a bloodthirsty pirate, a notorious highwayman or a ruthless bountyhunter or slaver had the alignment allowed for it.

Aside from possibly bounty hunter, Robin Hood, or a privateer against a despotic nation, those occupations seem completely contradictory to the flavor of the class and are the best reason I think for not allowing evil Vigilantes.

So my wish would be for a similar class geared towards evil aligned characters, maybe with some different and unique causes to differentiate them?

That might be a better idea then opening up the alignment of the Vigilante, though it does seem a waste of resources if the mechanical differences are insignificant. Perhaps a new name for the overall class with evil and non-evil sub-classes that encompass the spectrum of someone outside the law? Sadly that does sound like just re-inventing the "Rogue" class so it has a martial's Base Attack Bonus. Why not keep Vigilante as is and just add more morally neutral sub-classes to Rogue (or a new Rogue-adjacent class such as Knave, Rapscallion, Freebooter, or Marauder) instead such as "Ruffian" (strong guy; knockdown feats; medium armor; damage or sneak attack bonus with any simple two-handed weapon), "Mastermind" (knowledge is power; "Insightful Strike," lore bonus, and a single henchman like a Barbarian tribesman but tanky, ineffective in causing damage, and primarily for trope roleplay), "Overwatch" (wise team support; spotter; 60-foot ranged sneak attack), "Scoundrel" (charismatic; Bluff-only Feint variant and enhanced Bluff-only Dirty Fighting; able to take Underdark writs and portals if a surface dweller) and "Magical Trickster" (minor spellcasting; Silent Spell feat; can sneak attack with cantrips)?

[Kenji]

Here's a preview of Liberator changes:

1. Access to Animal Companion at 4th level
   (scales at 3/2 levels, needs further technical-side evaluation, however)
2. Free Signature Weapon at 5th level
3. Free Signature Weapon Mastery at 12th level
4. Access to the following feats (requires feat investment)
   Improved Methods at lvl6 instead of 13 (still requires epic levels)
   Greater Magic Fang (as a feat ability)
   Call of the Wild
5. Aura of Resolve at level 20 (+3 save vs Fear and Mind-Affecting to all allies within a certain radius)

I'm also considering removing the free brawler/pugilist feats from Liberators to go along with this buff.

[eddymakaveli]

Here's a preview of Liberator changes:

1. Access to Animal Companion at 4th level
   (scales at 3/2 levels, needs further technical-side evaluation, however)
2. Free Signature Weapon at 5th level
3. Free Signature Weapon Mastery at 12th level
4. Access to the following feats (requires feat investment)
   Improved Methods at lvl6 instead of 13 (still requires epic levels)
   Greater Magic Fang (as a feat ability)
   Call of the Wild
5. Aura of Resolve at level 20 (+3 save vs Fear and Mind-Affecting to all allies within a certain radius)

I'm also considering removing the free brawler/pugilist feats from Liberators to go along with this buff.

I think these changes are a good start - though if you want to give liberator some more 'oomph' while it maintains the natural theme you have - maybe have them be able to tend plants? Giving them Nature Sense (+2 AB in wilderness areas)? And while I understand the "scaling" component, if you're removing pugilist/brawler - maybe give liberators' Call of the Wild or Animal Companions have scaling with CHA over CON? Also to note: Liberators do not have access to the 'Awaken' spell, which would leave their companion at a new loss as well. Call of the Wild SR also scales with class levels/2 whereas liberator only has 20 max levels - which would have to be looked at. All-in-all, it's a good start and I am excited for the prospect of balance finally coming to Liberator.

[Scurvy Cur]

Do NOT give them nature sense. That's pretty much the same as giving them +2 AB any time they're not in Andunor or Cordor.

At first glance, it looks good, making this the first Kenji release in a while that hasn't made me want to scold him. Judging by my back of the envelope math, it will be kinda-on-par with blackguard (in a "both of these classes are still way worse than paladin" sort of way), instead of "sort of like blackguard, but missing an AB".

EDIT: Should add, I'm not 100% on the theme of Liberator being a guy with a dog, and in an ideal world, I'd see both that and blackguard be given options to support non-summoning options, but as far as a quick once-over to make the class less of a poor relation to BG goes, this looks good by the numbers.

[Kuma]

EDIT: Should add, I'm not 100% on the theme of Liberator being a guy with a dog,

yeah this just seems like alt-ranger thematically

[Twohand]

I think it is worthy mentioning that the original Liberator from Complete Divine is a guy with a (celestial) dog, so Kenji's idea isn't out of place.

[Svrtr]

In conjunction with what Dragonovith said, if not an animal companion then just doing 1:1 epic fiend with a skin change and changing the damage types would be "fine"

But on the note animal companion could probably do with a second look as a whole after the sequencer change

[AstralUniverse]

1. If I understand correctly a lvl 20 liberator would have a lvl 30 companion with 3:2 scaling. Interesting. Animal companion kinda sucks tho, unrelated to liberator. It's still WoF immune, I was told recently, but has like 6 will save vs Turns iirc, and cleric mobs with Turn Animal are quite common since the domains rework. Animal companion could use some love, and then this change makes more sense.

2. As I suggested.

3. Also as I suggested but at lvl 12... my thought process was not to give it to 7wm builds (deep bg/wm has only 5 wm lvls for reference), but we'll see how that goes. Maybe it's alright.

4. Call of the wild and greater magic fang are pretty cool, again, if animal companion didnt suck but nothing not to like about this buff as well.
   We should be careful with how much ab we throw at the early levels. with free signature weapon at lvl 5 and then being able to pick improved signature weapon on lvl 6th bonus feat, this allows for a decent bab/disc dip with free 2 ab. Not sure if that's a problem yet, but it raises some concern. I thought we removed the +1 ab paladin had on lvl 6th for this very reason.

5. Eh... that wont make me take 20 lvls of lib. The only thing that would justify 20 lvls of lib would be a strong animal companion. But it's something.

And about the consideration to remove unarmed feats. I dont overly mind.. curious tho... Why?

[Chloe123]

I think it is worthy mentioning that the original Liberator from Complete Divine is a guy with a (celestial) dog, so Kenji's idea isn't out of place.

Would be nice if it's an animal companion but has a celestial reskin!

[yom]

I think it is worthy mentioning that the original Liberator from Complete Divine is a guy with a (celestial) dog, so Kenji's idea isn't out of place.

Would be nice if it's an animal companion but has a celestial reskin!

I do like this idea.

[Kenji]

A tiny version of Hound Archon perhaps

[Quidix]

I don't quite see the point of removing unarmed feats all of a sudden, it just seems to destroy the poor souls who built characters around it. If a must, at least make it two paths: (1) pets, (2) unarmed.

[DM Monkey]

Thematic reskins for greater variety in storytelling around the pet would be fantastic. If you see what's been done to familiars, you could just have the standard whatever pet it's meant to get but then give players a choice on the visual by changing skins.

[WanderingPoet]

Thematic reskins for greater variety in storytelling around the pet would be fantastic. If you see what's been done to familiars, you could just have the standard whatever pet it's meant to get but then give players a choice on the visual by changing skins.

This would definitely be nice. I would much prefer an animal over a tiny hound archon/outsider. But a tiny hound archon/outsider might be more thematically fitting to someone else's idea.

As cute as a tiny hound archon would be, it doesn't fit the RP of everyone that would want to go the pet route. A nature oriented liberator (especially one focused on fiend slaying) might prefer something from the material plane; rather than fighting outsiders with an outsider and feeling a bit like a hypocrite.

[Dreams]

Could liberators get a bonus language like Celestial?

To compare:
Paladins - Celestial
Rangers - Animal
Blackguard - Infernal/Abyssal

Probably also worth considering opening Animal Handling as a skill if they're going to get pets.

[AllPizzasArePersonal]

Here's a preview of Liberator changes:

1. Access to Animal Companion at 4th level
   (scales at 3/2 levels, needs further technical-side evaluation, however)
2. Free Signature Weapon at 5th level
3. Free Signature Weapon Mastery at 12th level
4. Access to the following feats (requires feat investment)
   Improved Methods at lvl6 instead of 13 (still requires epic levels)
   Greater Magic Fang (as a feat ability)
   Call of the Wild
5. Aura of Resolve at level 20 (+3 save vs Fear and Mind-Affecting to all allies within a certain radius)

I'm also considering removing the free brawler/pugilist feats from Liberators to go along with this buff.

There's a lot that I really like about this and am excited about. A couple of things that do concern me - Call of the Wild requires 15 con, which is going to be a tall order for most meta Liberator builds given that they're already needing to stretch their statline to charisma for their other class features. I'd hope to see different pre-reqs for Liberator than Ranger.

It's not mentioned, so I'd hope that a Liberator based Call of the Wild also comes with a feat-ability of casting Awaken. Otherwise they'll need to buy scrolls to actually use a feat, which feels bad.

As others have mentioned, Animal Companion is in a rough spot at the moment. Maybe updating ACs as reskinned BG summons would help both Liberators and pure Rangers ?

Either way really excited to see Liberator get a little flavor outside of level 16 divine synergy!

[Baronze]

Here's a preview of Liberator changes:

1. Access to Animal Companion at 4th level
   (scales at 3/2 levels, needs further technical-side evaluation, however)
2. Free Signature Weapon at 5th level
3. Free Signature Weapon Mastery at 12th level
4. Access to the following feats (requires feat investment)
   Improved Methods at lvl6 instead of 13 (still requires epic levels)
   Greater Magic Fang (as a feat ability)
   Call of the Wild
5. Aura of Resolve at level 20 (+3 save vs Fear and Mind-Affecting to all allies within a certain radius)

I'm also considering removing the free brawler/pugilist feats from Liberators to go along with this buff.

Although the Holy Liberator class from 3.5 gets a summon, I don't think allowing Liberators as they are to get one is a good idea. It can be put on a path, similar to vigilante, but I am not a huge fan of PRC's having paths.

On the other hand when Liberator is compared to its direct evil counter-part, Blackguard, it does come out somewhat weaker. The book version gives the class the ability to cast paladin spells, but being able to cast the entire paladin spellbook would be way too overpowered for Arelith. A few spell-like abilities to match Blackguard would be more prudent. I think anything on the level of Holy Sword would be too much, perhaps Aura of Glory and Defeaning Clang would be enough.

Also simply having a +3 save aura for its level 20 capstone is pretty weak. Compare it to, again, Blackguard where you gain +2 enhancement bonus to your weapon, and an aura to reduce enemy saves.

Overall I think you should be thinking more in lines of making Liberator its own unique thing. I think vigilante methods that it has right now are quite good for that, but the class doesn't have enough feats to grab them so giving it free signature weapon is a good choice.

If you are set on giving the class a summon, breaking it up into three paths (like vigilante) would be a way to balance it. One for a Natural/Woodland, one for an ex-Paladin and one for more of a rogue type would be lore appropriate.

[Kushion]

A small QoL thing that's mildly irking on Liberator is that you still lose piety per tick, unlike CoT, BG, Pal, who gain it on tick. It'd be nice if Liberator were added to this, seeing as they make use of Piety pretty hastily in fights, with smite/shield/might.

If not a gain, maybe just removing the -0.1 per tick. It's not an issue by any means but it'd just be a little more comfortable, and fit in with the other 'Div' classes.