Vigilante and Liberator Feedback Thread

[Subtext]

This does not seem the place to discuss rogue, whether or not it is weak in the current meta (it probably is) and if it is due for a rework.

Even if it was, that is then no reason to balance Viligante against it.

Reworking Viligante to fit into rogue as a base class seems like a huge undertaking, and I'm unclear what the benefits are?

Thank you for all the work Kenji.

While I would generally agree with you and certainly do on the fact that this isn't the place to discuss the nuts and bolts of how rogues are weak or not, the similarities between the classes are too striking to not take them into account.

As for reworking Vigilante to fit into rogue as a base class - I will say that when I first looked at Vigilante, my first impression was "Man, this looks cool.". My second was "Heh. That looks like a rogue rework." You have the sneak attack stuff, you have a good chunk of the rogue special feat line, separated to fit into different thematic concepts. This is in a similar vein as the reworks of Warlock, Paladin, Spellsword, Cleric...all base classes as well. I am not saying it necessarily should be that way and I am not going to offer any suggestion on that in either direction here but that impression certainly doesn't come from nowhere. And perhaps these aspects could be taken into consideration IF the decision is made one day that there will be a rework. Who knows?

Add to that that the suggestion board has been closed for a year and a half now and you can't reasonably make a "That is why rogues need a change" thread without either sounding like an entitled jerk that just complains and proverbially shits on the dev work or being someone that goes against the spirit of this board and makes it a suggestion thread...which doesn't belong here either. The fact is that there isn't really much opportunity here to actually have that discussion.


On to actual feedback.


The class does actually feel or rather look fairly balanced but I can't say all that much about that yet given that some features just aren't in place yet and messing around on PGCC only gets one so far in getting wellfounded data.

In regards to the build comparisons, there is one thing that did actually stick out to me. There were comparison between Vigilante builds and rogue/martial stuff and you can achieve very similar and effective concepts either way.
What I ironically see as performing poorly however is combining Vigilante and Rogue. Yes, it seems we can't put that topic aside but the fact is...while both classes offer something similar, they don't actually synergize that well. Going deep in either class grants very similar feats but taking both classes won't allow you enough investment in one of the classes to really benefit from it since the "special" feats are fairly deep down the class progression in either one.

To solve that, I think it might be worth considering adding Vigilante to the classes that synergize with rogue-like classes in regards to things like Blinding Speed, Lightly Armored, Specialty Weapons. We already have the precedent with a full AB class there with Invisible Blade and Swashbuckler for Blinding Speed.
I haven't done real numbercrunching here but I feel like the outcome would be fairly similar in power and gameplay to the classic 24/6 rog/ftr with potentially more sneak dice (depending on the cause) and slightly higher AB in exchange for a somewhat more constricted feat line and the loss of grenades. More importantly, it would feel more on par with other potential vigilante builds.

Another thing I am not sure about yet - are things like signature weapon going to be applicable to ranged weapons? It didn't look like that when I was tinkering around on PGCC but the chosen weapon feat didn't seem to work at times on melee weapons either so I really don't know
I certainly hope that Vigilante will also be a valid choice for ranged combat.

Other than that, the class looks cool and I hope to see more updates soon

[Waldo52]

This does not seem the place to discuss rogue, whether or not it is weak in the current meta (it probably is) and if it is due for a rework.

Even if it was, that is then no reason to balance Viligante against it.

Correct. I'll reiterate what I said before: assuming this class gets implemented and is deemed balanced against other classes *in general*, please give the rogue another look and raise it up a step or three.

I'm not saying that our class is awful so your class should be terrible too, I'm asking for you to give us another look after you're done with this project. That's a pretty tame request.

[Waldo52]

Those who believe Rogues are weak or Vigilantes are overtaking Rogue's functions, here are some basic comparisons:

Rogue 24 / Ftr 6
Epic Dodge, Sneak Attack 12d6, Uncanny Dodge 7, Crippling Strike, All Grenades, UMD
2 bonus feats can be: Epic Feats, Slippery Mind, and/or Skill Mastery
Missing: Increased Crit Multiplier
Gains: 2d6 SA, UD 6 & 7, all grenades beyond Disjunction, and 3 or 4 pre-epic feats w/o needing to qualify for WM

Rogue 19 / Ftr 6 / WM 5 (Baseline for comparison)
Epic Dodge, Sneak Attack 10d6, Uncanny Dodge 5, Crippling Strike, Increased Crit Multiplier, Grenades up to Disjunction and Acid, UMD
1 bonus feat can be: Epic Feat, Slippery Mind, or Skill Mastery

Freedom Vig 19 / Ftr 6 / WM 5
Epic Dodge, Sneak Attack 6d6, Uncanny Dodge 4, Increased Crit Multiplier, AoE Fear on Kill
Extra Methods can be: Chosen Weapon, Dirty Fighting Upgrade, and/or Devices (similar to grenades but with a longer cooldown and not spammable)
The above methods can be 2 improved variants 1 epic feat, all 4 regular variants but with 1 improved, or 1 improved, 1 regular, and 2 epic feats.
Missing: UMD, 4d6 SA, UD 5, and Crippling Strike
Gains: higher AB, versatility, and build freedom

Vindication Vig 19 / Ftr 6 / WM 5
Sneak Attack 10d6, Uncanny Dodge 1, Crippling Strike, Increased Crit Multiplier, Dirty Fighting Upgrade
Extra Methods can be: Chosen Weapon, AoE Fear on Kill, or Device (similar to grenades but with longer cooldown and not spammable)
Missing: UMD, UD 2 to 5, Epic Dodge
Gains: higher AB, versatility, and build freedom

The power disparity . . . it's massive beyond any kind of reasonable dispute.

I feel exactly the same way, and I don't want to whine on the forums or derail this thread, but it's kind of hard not to address this.

Given that only the Vindication Vigilantes can obtain Crippling Strike, can you both elaborate on why "the power disparity is massive beyond dispute" other than one's feelings?

Something to note is that causes are unique. One vigilante can not have 2 causes. Just because one path has Crippling Strike does not necessarily mean other Vigilante paths automatically get it. One needs to look at these individual paths as they are: individual progression. Not all of them get everything listed on the spreadsheet.

Suppose anyone still truly feels vigilantes will overtake Rogues in every way. In that case, one can always go on the PGCC right now and test Vigilantes against Rogues and other competitions like vs. mobs or other classes. Provide concrete details, builds, and evidence to support your claim.

The one case that can be made here, by myself even, is that Rogues lack in that build diversity, whereas Vigilante will simply enjoy more. Vigilantes will also likely gain 2 to 4 AB more than Rogues but at the cost of defensive feats and/or better methods of inducing flat-foot.

For reference purposes, Devices will be slightly inferior to Grenades in terms of function (DC, duration) and availability (cooldown, spammability). They will also not be as needy in terms of upkeep and maintenance (QoL).

The problem with your assessment is the reliance on facts and numbers.

Rogues have decent to good AC, epic dodge, situationally exploitable damage and a plethora of other spreadsheet goodies that seem enviable. The problem is that on the main servers and PGCC rogues do very poorly, except as build ingredients. With all those cool abilities we're almost less than the sum of our parts. Playing a rogue and theory crafting one as you pray for ideal circumstances are two extremely different things.

I saw the replies that voiced concern about thread derailment, so I'll end my comments here and repeat my intention one last time: I'm not looking to stop the vigilante or drag it down to the level of rogues. I'm asking you guys to make a decent, balanced class and then make an attempt to bring the rogue up to the level of everything else. We're not trying to push you down, we're enjoying your success and asking you to help us up. I say this as a dude struggling in the Skal grainary, as a guy struggling with Sibayad orcs, as a guy struggling in PvP, as a guy who tries to cause mischief in town but gets caught and mocked/trivialized as a villain because I don't get stealth or disguise bonuses where other classes get a host of detection tricks.

[Eldariash]

I'm asking to bring Vigi's bluff in line with the other classes to prevent power creep.
If its hard me says no no if its soft its still a pocket bard but aah well we can live with it.

Limit access to new caps

[Kenji]

Foreword: This will be my last response to feedback in a while, as I am running out of free time before being overwhelmed by real-life obligations. I thank you all for participating in this long discussion, as it does help clarify the direction in which we are taking Vigilantes, Liberators, and Rogues. Please don't take my neutral tone of indifference as a lack of passion or dismission of any opinions. It is imperative that I take a very neutral stance on much of the feedback to achieve better objectivity. Emotion clouds judgment, leading to digression and inefficiency when time is precious and limited.

Exciting things are coming, and I hope you all enjoy what is to come.

Few things about Rogue.

Rogue is weak. I personally dont find any appeal in this class anymore. It is only good for easily leveling with a pocket guard and farming traps for exp. Rogue is no longer the best Rogue in the game and hasnt been for a while.

Rogue is popular. I have no idea why, but it has high play rate (or at least had high play rates last time I saw the graph just before invoker's release). Go figure...

I would like to see Rogue's grenades reworked into usefulness and Rogue should be mostly fine, imo.

I wanted to ask for clarification on what "Rogue is no longer the best Rogue" truly meant, but I quickly defined them myself upon asking that question. I hope everyone reading this gives thought to the distinct line between the two, as well:

1. The first "Rogue" in that sentence is about the mechanical class, Rogue.
2. The second "Rogue" right after the comparison, best, is about the concepts, visions, and RP that make up for the "Rogue" identity.

What makes Rogue a Rogue?
Is it the ability to open locks and disarm traps? (likely superseded by the abundance of open lock/disarm trap gear that allows an investment of 1 rank in each or by simply having a pixie familiar to function as one)
Is it the ability to obtain high sneak attack dice? (Think of it as a Rogue's SA is on par as the assassin's, that's impressive if you ask me)
Is it the ability to maximize multiple skill-based ranks?
Custom Arelith interpretation:
Is it the ability to throw grenades and have "gadgets" to an extent?
Is it the ability to smuggle goods and/or people? (no special interaction w/ smugglers as far as I'm aware)
Is it the ability to be a black marketeer? (very basic "Black Market" and Arelith's Underground Criminal culture has yet to be properly defined thanks to PP/QB controversy, no doubt)

Let us not forget that Vigilante is a Prestige Class, much like Assassin, Shadow Dancer, and Invisible Blade. Rogue is a base class. From that particular distinction alone, Prestige Classes should be specialized in certain aspects of "Rogue," both mechanical and conceptual. It is okay for certain classes to surpass Rogues in a certain way. Otherwise, there would be no point in all these varying PrCs other than just a Rogue class. Whether the trade-off, what is improved, and what is left behind are balanced or inspiring would be a matter of further discussion and debate.

It's clear to me that the team has higher interest in making new classes than working on old ones as long as they dont leave things bugged and broken. Hence, Vigilante.

"The Team" consists of various individual contributors, and we often have different approaches, thoughts, ideas, and visions (with the final say from Kalopsia and Irongron) regarding classes, mechanics, and balance.

It is not "The Team"'s intent to abandon or ignore existing classes, especially base classes, such as Rogue, Monk, or Druid. Those classes share a history of two decades and tens, if not dozens, of contributors worth of modifications to come to where they are now. "The Team" simply has difficulty agreeing on what to do with them. Designing and executing the changes take time. I ask that people avoid making baseless assumptions without fully understanding the inner workings. It'll only serve to discourage the team members from being transparent.

But only looking at the vision you have for it is too limited people will be using it for all sorts. I hope you don't mean to dismiss points cause it doesn't match what the goal of vigi is? To consider more (yes subjective) visions is the enitre point of feedback? Vigi isn't goaled to be a pure RP spy. Should we ignore its capability's as such? This leads into dangers of making something but breaking another by not considering it. Nothing is stand alone. Or am I misunderstanding this sentance it strikes my eyes.

If you read it carefully, you'll find my response quite the opposite of what you claim. Disregard my tone of indifference, don't read between the lines, but look at what the words suggest. It's about the recognition of the different topics being discussed here. Mechanics and Visions/Concepts (RP) discussions for a class are two very different things, even if they may be connected via a certain degree of dependence on one another.

I certainly hope that Vigilante will also be a valid choice for ranged combat.

Yes, they will be. The validity, however, is up to personal preference and belief. Vigilante is primarily designed around Sneak Attack mechanics, after all. Many may claim that Ranged and Sneak attacks are anti-synergistic. I firmly believe otherwise, where Ranged Sneak Attack builds (now delegated to Horseback Archery to kite) is a sleeper that remains a high-skill cap archetype for both the builders and the players. Hence it will remain a sleeper archetype forgotten in the melee meta until a Tuigan Horde comes along and conquer Arelith.

Rogue

Let me preface this by saying I can't tell whether this is a phenomenon of a vocal minority or an actual representation of what "Rogue," both in terms of concept and mechanics, is truly perceived as among the player base. I recognize that the dedicated Rogue class is being shoehorned into the Grenadier concept for them to become competitive in the scene, both PvE and PvP. This speaks for me and not any other contributors or developers. But I want to reassure you that certain changes are coming to Rogues Soon™.

[Subtext]

Let us not forget that Vigilante is a Prestige Class, much like Assassin, Shadow Dancer, and Invisible Blade. Rogue is a base class. From that particular distinction alone, Prestige Classes should be specialized in certain aspects of "Rogue," both mechanical and conceptual. It is okay for certain classes to surpass Rogues in a certain way. Otherwise, there would be no point in all these varying PrCs other than just a Rogue class. Whether the trade-off, what is improved, and what is left behind are balanced or inspiring would be a matter of further discussion and debate.

I don't think there is any problem with that. I personally very much recognize the idea of prestige classes as a way of specializing into a certain direction and I don't believe that should be different at all. I think what "broke" people a bit is that bards essentially took over the classic rogue activities and do it so much better...and *then* seeing another class getting these cookies while "we" feel less and less relevant does sting a little.

Let me preface this by saying I can't tell whether this is a phenomenon of a vocal minority or an actual representation of what "Rogue," both in terms of concept and mechanics, is truly perceived as among the player base. I recognize that the dedicated Rogue class is being shoehorned into the Grenadier concept for them to become competitive in the scene, both PvE and PvP. This speaks for me and not any other contributors or developers. But I want to reassure you that certain changes are coming to Rogues Soon™.

And that is pretty much all I personally hoped to hear. Thank you for sharing with us

[Hazard]

I want to reassure you that certain changes are coming to Rogues Soon™.

This makes me so happy(and anxious).

[AstralUniverse]

What makes Rogue a Rogue?

Well... when we speak about nwn and arelith in specific, I think personally it's the skill-monkey theme. Gets the best stealth check, one of the best detections, one of best magical items users, one of the best flankers in combat. And Rogue isnt the best at either of these things anymore. Bard makes a much better skill bot when it comes to stealth/detection. Loremaster makes a better magical item user, and flanking/combat is easily done by other classes now even without the sneak damage because they just out ab/damage the rogue by large enough that unless the rogue is attacking a perma KDed or afk target, most burst heavy classes will do more damage even without flanking.

That's what I meant when I said Rogue isnt the best Rogue anymore. It's the things Rogue's supposed to be good at, being done much better and more easily by other classes.

The reason I (and several other players it seems) shoehorn rogue into Grenadier is simply because it's that one thing left going for this class that isnt out-shined by other classes and I think it's a good place to buff rogue at, so you can focus other classes on other things.

EDIT: I would also like to add that I really dont mean to sound ungrateful if I come off that way. I am very grateful for every class that has been added, including even invisible blade which I've yet to figure out what I would do with it, and I dont say it is necessarily a bad thing that classes are left in a weird place if 1) they arent overpowered and 2) people still play them for whatever reasons. Just to get that clear. If there's a decision (or even unconscious decision) to work on new and shiny things rather than do yet another boring run of tweaks to a base class because that's more interesting for the Devs then so be it.

[-XXX-]

Well... when we speak about nwn and arelith in specific, I think personally it's the skill-monkey theme. Gets the best stealth check, one of the best detections, one of best magical items users, one of the best flankers in combat. And Rogue isnt the best at either of these things anymore.

I wouldn't say that it ever was.
For the longest time the Rogue class functioned as little more than a 3 lvl multiclass splash giving access to skills like UMD, spot, tumble or open lock/disable trap to builds that wouldn't get them otherwise.

Ever since the Loremageddon we've seen a number of skills reworked, added or improved in functionality. We can now talk about a skill meta, where players regularly build around certain skills, look for ways to maximize the skill values and multiclass for the sole purpose of reaching the soft skill cap.
Sail, Lore or Search could serve as good examples of skills that can really reward the player for going all in, even at the cost of the build's decreased combat efficiency.
Maxed out discipline is practically a mandatory requirement for PvP.

Saying that a class should be the best at the skill-monkey theme in today's Arelith is like saying that a class should be the best at killing things. Skills have simply become too big of a deal for one single class to boast such a thing (and yes, I totally acknowledge that's what Bard does ATM).



-----
Would suggest adding two more causes, because there's 7 actors who portrayed the Batman.

[Waldo52]

I want to reassure you that certain changes are coming to Rogues Soon™.

This makes me so happy(and anxious).

Yessssss!

[Ork]

Rogues are a very powerful class as is with a lot of advantages give to them through the YCE rework. I'm worried if we're buffing them further it might tip them over into OP.

[xf1313]

When I tried to make a vigilante it feels a bit confusing, not sure what kind of character it is going to be (aside from the quite clear rogue path and archery path). Hope the final version feels somewhat different than a ‘rogue/ranger’

Happy to see some love to rogues. Where’s the over powering bit coming from? The 30+ ab that barely hit the endgame mobs or the weak consititution...or better yet, sad damage vis sneak immune. I suffered greatly trying to level rogue (it is a fun class, sure, but also very tough)

[Kenji]

With the latest update to Vigilante and the introduction of Liberator to PGCC, they will be entering the final testing phase for going live. Feedback and suggestions are welcomed.

Here are their respective links and spreadsheets for reference:
Vigilante
Liberator

[Quidix]

... but Vigilantes will likely have access to UBAB-eligible weapons with only 1 extra APR rather than 2....

Appreciate all the work Kenji. I'm excited. As the class is nearing end of testing - are there any plans to add the above? (ie some bonus for monk-like weapons)

Two clarification points:
1) Does Vigilante levels count towards blinding speed CD reduction? (similar to many other dex classes)
2) Does elves gain +2 spot / listen instead of Keen Senses with Vigilance path? (as rogue does)

[Barkoneus]

The b1.02 spreadsheet seems incorrect, and there are some bugs in the leveling process for Vigilante, is there a newer version?

For example when leveling in Vigilance:

1) I don't get Method: Signature Weapon until Vigilante level 7, but it's listed at level 5 on the spreadsheet.

2) When granted the first optional method at level 6, Signature Weapon is listed as a possibility - presumably this is a trap, since you would just get the feat twice, once by choice and then again automatically at the later level?

3) There is no feedback that you actually get Signature weapon at level 7. I only know by looking at the character sheet.

Separately, is the signature weapon bonus just applied to any weapon? I don't see a way to select a specific weapon like a Weapon Master would.

Thanks...

[Kenji]

The Vigilante class will be updated to match the new spreadsheet in terms of progression. Give it a few PGCC resets.

The public write-up has been updated with the latest details on Vigilante stuffs:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yNP ... _Tm2A/edit

[Helsing]

So based on the wiki, are there any meaning to be lvl 20 liberator instead of 19? They get literally nothing for level 20 except 1 more divine smite damage, I call for more reasonable power spread.

[Kenji]

So based on the wiki, are there any meaning to be lvl 20 liberator instead of 19? They get literally nothing for level 20 except 1 more divine smite damage, I call for more reasonable power spread.

Something to keep in mind is that not all Prestige Classes offer something substantial at 20: Arcane Archer, Pale Master, Assassin, Shadow Dancer, Red Dragon Disciple, to name a few.

In fact, the Prestige Classes that offer something substantial at 20 are few and far in between, and they are Divine Champion and Blackguard.

That said, seeing that Liberator is part of the divine martial classes similar to Divine Champion and Blackguard and also meant to be somewhat of a Divine counterpart to Blackguard in terms of function, its summoning capability notwithstanding, there is also no reason why Liberator 20 can’t offer some incentive for a build to go all the way.

I invite everyone to give their ideas on what would be adequate incentive given by a 20 Liberator build. Provide relevant comparisons and opportunity costs such as losing 10 Tumble (thus 2 AC), Epic Weapon Specialization (4 less damage), and/or a potential epic feat for example.

[Helsing]

So based on the wiki, are there any meaning to be lvl 20 liberator instead of 19? They get literally nothing for level 20 except 1 more divine smite damage, I call for more reasonable power spread.

Something to keep in mind is that not all Prestige Classes offer something substantial at 20: Arcane Archer, Pale Master, Assassin, Shadow Dancer, Red Dragon Disciple, to name a few.

In fact, the Prestige Classes that offer something substantial at 20 are few and far in between, and they are Divine Champion and Blackguard.

That said, seeing that Liberator is part of the divine martial classes similar to Divine Champion and Blackguard and also meant to be somewhat of a Divine counterpart to Blackguard in terms of function, its summoning capability notwithstanding, there is also no reason why Liberator 20 can’t offer some incentive for a build to go all the way.

I invite everyone to give their ideas on what would be adequate incentive given by a 20 Liberator build. Provide relevant comparisons and opportunity costs such as losing 10 Tumble (thus 2 AC), Epic Weapon Specialization (4 less damage), and/or a potential epic feat for example.

I'd say based on Liberator's current power spread, there will be no 20 Liberator builds, only 19 Liberator/xx or less, unlike CoT which power is scaled by level / 5 (bonus AB, Divine wrath), Liberator has no such specialities that's why 20 Liberator suffers.

Pathfinding have some good solutions on these, like Capstones for pure classes. If we follow the path, we might see more 30 rogue, 30 barb, 30 paladin and make builds more diverse. For liberator specifically, maybe give them spell resistance at lvl 20 as a minor capstone to make it worth taking.

[Kenji]

I'd say based on Liberator's current power spread, there will be no 20 Liberator builds, only 19 Liberator/xx or less, unlike CoT which power is scaled by level / 5 (bonus AB, Divine wrath), Liberator has no such specialities that's why 20 Liberator suffers.

Pathfinding have some good solutions on these, like Capstones for pure classes. If we follow the path, we might see more 30 rogue, 30 barb, 30 paladin and make builds more diverse. For liberator specifically, maybe give them spell resistance at lvl 20 as a minor capstone to make it worth taking.

History suggests otherwise. Making 30th-milestone abilities/features that are too good to incentivize pure 30 builds have often resulted in lowered build diversity rather than increasing it.

They are/were 30 Monolith Druid builds, 30 EDR Barbarian builds, 30 Fist Ki Strike 5 Monk builds, 30 Spellsword builds, and 30 Warlock builds, to name a few. All of which are/were too good when compared to their multiclass counterparts, which discouraged multiclassing. (Though, to be fair, there also exists 30 pure builds that are/were adequately balanced, such as 30 Ranger or 30 Healer)

But to address this post, 20 Liberators were never intended to be a thing, and there's no need for further arguments or convincing as to why 20 liberators should be a thing. What is needed are suggestions on what to give them to make 20 Liberators a compelling choice without making it the ONLY choice, much like how Monks or Druids are now.

[Quidix]

On Vigilante: UMD would fit in very nicely with the "at any cost" theme (and it's still not an easy pick with 6 sp vs 8 for ranger and 10 for rogue)

On Liberator: Is this not a BG but without corrupt weapon and a powerful summon? Feels like they could use some more boons maybe?

[Mortem_Fero]

20 Vigilante: Maybe could get the ESF Illusion clone back? If you think thats too much power and have argued that before (I saw it was considered on thh spreadsheet at one point then sorry for not seeing it). Otherwise RP cookies like the messanger clone or the imporved bluff persona as a feat.

[Barkoneus]

The Vigilante class will be updated to match the new spreadsheet in terms of progression. Give it a few PGCC resets.

The public write-up has been updated with the latest details on Vigilante stuffs:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yNP ... _Tm2A/edit

Based on downloading, PGCC has been reset at least twice. I'm still seeing the incorrect vigilante progression. For instance Cause of Vigilance grants Zen Archery at 5 (instead of 3) and Signature Weapon at 7 (instead of 5).

[Kenji]

The fix is still in the pipeline and has not yet merged to live/PGCC servers. Give it a few more resets.

[Cerce]

Don't know if it's been posted before - but add Bluff as a class skill for Liberator! Blackguard is a similar PRC to Liberator and has access to it, and I'd highly suggest it to allow for Liberators to effectively disguise themselves - I picture a Liberator in the Underdark needing to go to great lengths to ensure that their efforts remain undetected. Otherwise, I feel like all we'll see them in the Underdark as a non-slave are brycers or another type of build that pairs them up with Rogue or Bard exclusively.