Those who believe Rogues are weak or Vigilantes are overtaking Rogue's functions, here are some basic comparisons:
Rogue 24 / Ftr 6
Epic Dodge, Sneak Attack 12d6, Uncanny Dodge 7, Crippling Strike, All Grenades, UMD
2 bonus feats can be: Epic Feats, Slippery Mind, and/or Skill Mastery
Missing: Increased Crit Multiplier
Gains: 2d6 SA, UD 6 & 7, all grenades beyond Disjunction, and 3 or 4 pre-epic feats w/o needing to qualify for WM
Rogue 19 / Ftr 6 / WM 5 (Baseline for comparison)
Epic Dodge, Sneak Attack 10d6, Uncanny Dodge 5, Crippling Strike, Increased Crit Multiplier, Grenades up to Disjunction and Acid, UMD
1 bonus feat can be: Epic Feat, Slippery Mind, or Skill Mastery
Freedom Vig 19 / Ftr 6 / WM 5
Epic Dodge, Sneak Attack 6d6, Uncanny Dodge 4, Increased Crit Multiplier, AoE Fear on Kill
Extra Methods can be: Chosen Weapon, Dirty Fighting Upgrade, and/or Devices (similar to grenades but with a longer cooldown and not spammable)
The above methods can be 2 improved variants 1 epic feat, all 4 regular variants but with 1 improved, or 1 improved, 1 regular, and 2 epic feats.
Missing: UMD, 4d6 SA, UD 5, and Crippling Strike
Gains: higher AB, versatility, and build freedom
Vindication Vig 19 / Ftr 6 / WM 5
Sneak Attack 10d6, Uncanny Dodge 1, Crippling Strike, Increased Crit Multiplier, Dirty Fighting Upgrade
Extra Methods can be: Chosen Weapon, AoE Fear on Kill, or Device (similar to grenades but with longer cooldown and not spammable)
Missing: UMD, UD 2 to 5, Epic Dodge
Gains: higher AB, versatility, and build freedom
Hazard wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:34 am
Waldo52 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:01 am
The power disparity . . . it's massive beyond any kind of reasonable dispute.
I feel exactly the same way, and I don't want to whine on the forums or derail this thread, but it's kind of hard not to address this.
Given that only the Vindication Vigilantes can obtain Crippling Strike, can you both elaborate on why "the power disparity is massive beyond dispute" other than one's feelings?
Something to note is that causes are unique. One vigilante can not have 2 causes. Just because one path has Crippling Strike does not necessarily mean other Vigilante paths automatically get it. One needs to look at these individual paths as they are: individual progression. Not all of them get everything listed on the spreadsheet.
Suppose anyone still truly feels vigilantes will overtake Rogues in every way. In that case, one can always go on the PGCC right now and test Vigilantes against Rogues and other competitions like vs. mobs or other classes. Provide concrete details, builds, and evidence to support your claim.
The one case that can be made here, by myself even, is that Rogues lack in that build diversity, whereas Vigilante will simply enjoy more. Vigilantes will also likely gain 2 to 4 AB more than Rogues but at the cost of defensive feats and/or better methods of inducing flat-foot.
For reference purposes, Devices will be slightly inferior to Grenades in terms of function (DC, duration) and availability (cooldown, spammability). They will also not be as needy in terms of upkeep and maintenance (QoL).