New and Overtuned

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MageTankTech
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by MageTankTech » Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:13 am

Skibbles wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:57 am
I can't really tell what the argument even is anymore but any dungeon should be, more or less, easily researched and prepared for just by asking other characters about it. 95% of characters are not a brand new player and will probably know, and if they don't they'll just say so and then a different character can be asked.

Recently I ended up helping a new player complete a very low level writ with my level 30 ranger. They randomly asked for directions, I ended up showing them there, and then they were a little confused on how to progress so I ended up helping out further and showing them around. (That dang derro dungeon if anyone is wondering).

So it should, in theory, be relatively easy to find out what to expect or find assistance for a new or difficult place. I've even had a business revolving around exploration and stuff like this for a while and it was fun.

However, on the flip side, some dungeons can be really hard or (and my personal distaste) outright obnoxious to complete - like the derro dungeon that used to confuse just about everyone until it was avoided and regarded as a classic noob trap for even taking the writ as the common advice on completing it came to be 'drop the contract'. Thankfully feedback prevailed and the hidden spot check was removed and the place made available.

So some places do occassionally need a review. However I, like ork, really enjoy difficult dungeons. Mobs that drop SoV really aren't too difficult, and places like the Grimlocks in the UD have spawns where more than one of them will cast it while you're barely level 15. It's a real 'oh crap' moment but it's very fun to get through as a team.

Small pro-tip for new players: Killing a caster of a spell cancels the effect even though it still remains visually present. So if a mob casts SoV then a common way to deal with it is just to focus the effort into killing them. Then you can just hang out in the rain and it won't do anything. I think the exception to this might be creeping doom but it's a bad spell so who really cares.

Another tip about area spells: no matter the caster level an area spell like SoV or some cloud effect is very easily removable with a plain dispel wand. I'm not sure of the actual math but it feels like about a 75% chance of success in removing any area spell with a simple wand action if the area can't be avoided.

Also I just want to add and agree that the Maur dungeon is super fun and a gold standard.
The arguement is that rude people are useless in the grand scheme of things. Their cynical/snide/offhanded/singlesentence remarks do nothing to help anyone or to improve any situation.

What you did right here was much better and I can actually call the information you provided useful for myself and others to know.

MageTankTech
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by MageTankTech » Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:03 am

Ork wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:24 am
Mage: The biggest issue with your claims is that your points are all over the place.
MageTankTech wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:06 am
I get that balancing can be hard when there are alot of big numbers and fancy things and I don't know this server or game well so my advice might not be amazing but I have often found that in most cases "simple is best".
You start off with a caution about how you're not familiar with the server, and don't really know how best to approach game balance, but then in the same post.
MageTankTech wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:06 am
It was stated earlier that a level 12 area had a boss with 9th circle spells. Pure mages don't have 9th circle spells at level 12 so why would enemies?

In PVP can a 5th circle summon compete with a 9th circle summon? Can they even touch a 9th circle summon? No, they would be obliterated.
You make an assumption that there are monsters/bosses on this server with such a huge disparity of power that they're using L9 spells in areas where player characters could never have access to these spells. Here's the issue with this line of thinking. It is a generalization made on the comment of someone else.

In actuality, the vast majority of bosses and mobs on this server are relatively EASY. If I go to the Wharftown Boys Hideout at level 10, I will without a doubt be able to solo this location considering I have adaquate AC to withstand most of the mobs' attacks. I made the comment that if you prepare, you'll be relatively successful.

As Skibbles says, most of us have played here for awhile and we can prepare well enough. But, let's say maybe you got swarmed and all the sudden you're chugging potions trying to stay alive.
MageTankTech wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:23 am
I don't know about you but I have been in quite a few situations where I could not simply "move out of it's effect before taking rolls for damage/stun". Perhaps I got stunned by something else first, maybe I got bogged down by bodies in the way, maybe path finding sent me into a random tree, this game is slow and cumbersome to play at times and you cannot just wave off a big out of nowhere spike in difficulty with "just play better".
Playing better is what you need to do. Let's say you die to Krahk the Minotaur boss on Skal. He IS verifiably much harder than all the other spawns in his area. What do you do? You'd have us believe that Krahk is poorly designed if you are not able to defeat him. We play on a multiplayer roleplay server. There are plenty of people that can join your adventuring party, and you'll find success. The story that comes from that success (or failure) is the reason why we're playing Arelith. It isn't for gold, or XP, or any other metric.
MageTankTech wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:23 am
The whole point of "balance" is to keep things reasonable so that people with little to no skill/knowledge and people with alot of skill/knowledge can enjoy something.
This is not the purpose of balance. The purpose of balance is whatever Irongron deems it should be. He makes the areas, he makes the mobs, he balances these locations for player consumption. It doesn't matter what you or I or Jimbob Joe says about mobs. Irongron has listened to complaints about mob strength before, and even in this very thread he mentioned he would look over them. Rational, informed feedback is listened to by our server owner, and that's a good thing. What isn't useful are generalized complaints, gripes about vague deaths, and criticisms without substance. Reference Scurvy's post in this topic. It outlines how I'd go about reporting issues for dungeons. He uses facts to support his claims about area imbalances.
MageTankTech wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:07 am
Unless the death penalty logic has been changed from back when I'm pretty sure the wait time is longer than "a few minutes" and it isn't just exp. If you end up burning a ton of supplies then you need to resupply as well, if you were relying on a team they may need to readjust or have to leave altogether, if you were playing on the weekend because your weekdays are full then you may not have enough time to follow up on that and may have to give up. I'm not sure if you are aware of this fact but "nothing in life is free" no matter what those advertisements try to claim.
Damn, you died. What happens now? This server has a long history of supporting the mantra of "when bad things happen to good adventurers". The synopsis is to roll with the punches. Get a party next time. Make sure you get barkskin potions and adaquate healing supplies before heading out. See if you can get a town cleric to buff you. These are all actions you can do to ensure your success. I don't have a lot of time to play these days. I know the crunch when you have to eat that respawn pill and know your gametime is done for the evening. But, to remove the possibility of defeat means that you're also removing the possibility of a more gratifying success later on. I mentioned the Skal Dragon crushed me. I know that I could've given up and honestly there would've been little to no consequence for that action. However, I'm a stubborn bastard.
MageTankTech wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:23 am
Also, what happens if they have DC 99 3000 Damage Acid Splash? What if there are thirty of them? Or they have the high ground and you can't hit them with spells due to your sight being blocked? Or you are standing on 100 damage traps.
Remember when I said that well-informed criticism is listen to? This won't be. It's purely hyperbolic and not based in actual experience.
MageTankTech wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:23 am
There are quite a few games out there that use this formula to create challenging gameplay. Singular dumb enemies with one job working with other dumb enemies who also have one job. It just takes some creativity with the environment and enemy placement to sell it.
Discussions of balance should be held within the confines of this game. You either have an attack or a spell coming your way. There are ways to mitigate both of these effects. Having AC, having DR, having immunities, using spells wisely like the Shield spell. These allow you to weather a lot of damage that would be otherwise coming your way. If you have 40 AC and all the mobs have 20 AB, you're avoiding the vast majority of damage. Using numbers to your advantage is part of being prepared in NWN.
MageTankTech wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:54 pm
I play most games on the highest or second highest difficulty I will have you know. I do not require "handholding" to progress in anything.
MageTankTech wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:08 pm
NwN is a game where balance is harder to recover because everything is slow and cumbersome. Therefore even more wiggle room needs to be allowed for someone to recover from a mistake.
This is what I mean by handholding. You don't need wiggle room to recover from a mistake. I don't mean this rudely but you just need to get good at NWN or die trying (and do it all over again more prepared this time).
Let's see, what does the rude person have to say today? Let us summarize.

"You are all over the place"

I've had multiple people hit up different points of what I have posted, most of which with extremely short responses. If you guys are going to be so all over the place and vague with your responses it doesn't leave me much choice but to hit up as many points as I can in the hopes of nailing at least one.

"You warned everyone you might not know what you are talking about."

Yeah, I did, didn't I? So how about a bit less attitude and a bit more advice? You are also free to say nothing at all if that suits you.

"You make an assumption that there are enemies on this server using level 9 spells in an area where players would not have level 9 spells"

....How is it an assumption IF EVERYONE SAYS IT'S TRUE!? Seriously, no one has denied the "level 12 players versus a level 9 spell casting boss" so why should I believe otherwise? If it's not true then say so.

"Get good and remember RP is more important than winning"

Get good is the dumbest/laziest advice in the world and yet people keep using it, pathetic. And, yes I agree that RP is more important than winning however wasn't the topic of conversation the "mechanical balance" of the server? Even if RP is more important that has no bearing on the current conversation.

"The purpose of balance is decided by the overlord and everyone else's opinion is meaningless."

Then...WHAT....THE....HELL....is the point of having a forum where people post feedback? You just rendered everything pointless with that one statement.


"Specific examples are good, vague cryptic warnings are bad".

Um...mister pot you are needed on the set in 5 minutes to go call kettle black again. Seriously, you have been nothing but vague this entire time and I have tried to scrounge together whatever I could spending 30 minutes to respond to statements you likely thought up in 5 seconds. If you want a more accurate and on point discussion then you had best put a bit more effort into it mister "knows everything but says nothing".


"You died, learn from it and try better next time"

Again, the conversation is about the balance of the server and what makes things fun. You can literally say that about any game regardless of whether it has great or horrible balance. Aside from the ones you never die in of course.

"Removing the possibility of defeat means less enjoyment later on"

I never once said to remove the possibility of defeat. Have you really never played a game that telegraphs what comes next to the player but is still difficult? You should try increasing the variety of games you play. It will really help to expand your understanding of things.

"Big numbers do not exist in game and therefore are useless information for balance discussions"

Ah, a classic example of taking a single sentence out of context and claiming it "is" the point. It was an exaggerated example I made in response to another post with the purpose being to give a clear and obvious example of how a dumb AI could win a fight against a player of equal spell level while completely trivializing the difference in skill between the two. To be clear I have been reading your posts up and down to try and make sure the sentences I am grabbing are at the core of "your" points. You are welcome.


"All discussions about a game should only be about that game"

That is an opinion you are having. My opinion is games "always" have something to learn from one another. If you narrow your focus to only what is in front of you then you "will" miss out on something big.


"Stats are important"

Yes, yes they are. I'm pretty sure I said earlier that stats are one of the most basic things a person can look at when deciding balance. I'm not sure how this is an arguement against what I have said but alright. If you like I can give you a more proper arguement to the post you were quoting as kind of a freebie. "Enemy positioning and combinations can be countered effectively with the proper allocation of stats". Yes, yes they can. Doesn't change the fact that interesting enemy combinations and environment setups can make for more challenging encounters even if they are a bunch of weaklings. I did offer to draw up a quick blueprint to make my point a bit more clear earlier.


"Get good"

Did you SERIOUSLY say that again in the same post? No, but for real though...how does saying this help ANYONE? It isn't a strategy, isn't a weapon, it isn't even a state of mind to have or a method of encouragement. It serves absolutely no purpose in any context.

"Do it right or die and try again"

Been over that in the previous conversation. This statement can be made for any game regardless of balance. It proves nothing and it convinces no one of anything.


"I don't mean to be rude but"

This is never a good way to preface any kind of statement. Like the moment you include "but" you basically negate what was just said. Sorry "but" I have frankly lost interest in discussing this topic with you so this will be my last reply.

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Ork
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Ork » Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:22 am

I must've touched a nerve. I can see you're not going to respond rationally, but I really did have a hope you were still open to a conversation like you claimed.

ClockworkRed
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by ClockworkRed » Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:49 pm

I must admit I am quite impressed how balanced the dungeons are. Of course not all are equally challenging but each one has their own flavor of enemies. Taking how many builds there are balancing seems a quite difficult task done exceptionally well.

Instead of decreasing the challenge rating of the more difficult dungeons I would also prefer to see the suggestion implemented that the rewards for these dungeons are increased. That might also reward group play. Atm it feels one is punished for not soloing and having high reward content that requires to join forces would be nice.

Pirates FTW


Xerah
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Xerah » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:04 pm

MageTankTech wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:08 am
In the end, all I want to do is to discuss this concept of balancing, plain and simple. There is nothing wrong with me attempting to have this conversation and anyone wishing to bow out from this conversation is free to do so.
You were told to drop the topic since you can't have this discussion without being aggressive and rude. Your point has been made and you can disengage from this topic now.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Richrd
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Richrd » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:00 pm

These exchanges are rather fun to read, especially with how people agree on some points but instead of agreeing to disagree on the other points they'd rather have this thread derail so much that it'll likely get locked down.

Anyways, I have to bring up my input from page 1. The core message that any initial balance issues are always created by the devs still stands. But I might have been too harsh with how I worded the message and should have put more emphasis on one particular point. The devs can't conceive of every possible class/race/feat combo. Nobody can before things go live for the masses. And this is where the thinktank of meta-powergamers-whateveryouwannacallthem come into play. The needy boys with that extra penchant for building characters for winning first, RP later.


Next up :
Instead of decreasing the challenge rating of the more difficult dungeons I would also prefer to see the suggestion implemented that the rewards for these dungeons are increased. That might also reward group play. Atm it feels one is punished for not soloing and having high reward content that requires to join forces would be nice.
Sorry but Arelith already has plenty of dungeons that you can't solo (to my knowledge at least because who knows maybe I suck so much more at this game than I think I do) unless you play some ultra-broken build specifically built for soloing content. Last time I went into content that is actually considered end-of-the-line as what I thought to be a strong solo build I got my Snuggybear whooped. Because guess what, even if you can solo writs all the way to 30 and then even get to the very end of the Deep Wells (mind you, when I say "get to" I don't mean that you kill everything on the way there, I mean just surviving the way to it), you still have not met the bar for a truly strong solo build.
So yeah, if you truly want a challenge? Arelith has it. You just got to look in the right places.


Oh, also. A level 12 caster mob should not have a 9th level spell. Why? Because it is immersion breaking, that's why. Is this a RP server or a MMO-lite?

Xerah
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Xerah » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:40 pm

You missed the entire point of the solo comment; why bother doing harder stuff when you can solo to something easier and not have to split the loot when there is the same amount of loot in both places.

It's also not a level 12 caster.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Richrd
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Richrd » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:46 pm

Xerah wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:40 pm
You missed the entire point of the solo comment; why bother doing harder stuff when you can solo to something easier and not have to split the loot when there is the same amount of loot in both places.
You know what? I did entirely miss that point. Wow. My brain must've turned into disgusting slop after reading through this thread.

Uhm ... I am just going to somewhat salvage my post by saying that my point still stands, something something meta builders something something balance something MMO lite #MakeArelithGreatAgain

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TroubledWaters
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by TroubledWaters » Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:23 pm

If one wants to farm, there are plenty of milk run dungeons to farm on. You will have to deal with the other groups looking to run them, however. But you still will be able to farm them just fine if you are patient.

I like that some of the newer dungeons are finally looking to provide a challenge for groups, especially the Bastille. I really hope that doesn't change.

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Edens_Fall
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:08 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:40 pm
Why are you replying to everyone except me.
*fond head pats*

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Zavandar
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Zavandar » Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:43 pm

I don't think it's necessary to disparage people good at building, as people can be good at building and still wonderful RPers.

I think the main takeaway from this thread and something most people can agree upon is that harder content should be more rewarding. I think it would also help if whether or not a dungeon is intended to be soloable was also plainly stated to avoid confusion like this in the future.
Intelligence is too important

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TroubledWaters
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by TroubledWaters » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:45 pm

The reward of doing harder content, as I understand it, is that fewer people go there so you don't have to wait in line to run a dungeon or bump into others while doing it.

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Zavandar
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Zavandar » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:08 pm

The reward being "not having to interact with other people" is a whole other can of worms, and generally not something I think most game designers see as a good thing to aspire to.
Intelligence is too important

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TroubledWaters
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by TroubledWaters » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:35 pm

But that is the reward, is it not? There's competition for loot and resources in the easiest/quickest/most popular spots (Avernus, Aurilites, RDI, etc.), and your ability to go elsewhere and do content others can't/don't want to do lets you gather your loot and resources with less competition.

Xerah
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Xerah » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:37 pm

It is a very terrible way to approach game design.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:45 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:08 pm
The reward being "not having to interact with other people" is a whole other can of worms, and generally not something I think most game designers see as a good thing to aspire to.
I hate other people. I solo Monster Hunter high rank.

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TroubledWaters
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by TroubledWaters » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:47 pm

Well, for better or worse, that's how it's set up now.

The opposite way of organizing this would be to increase the quality of loot at the harder dungeons and/or lower the quality at easier dungeons. This would promote more conflict in the more difficult areas, like Bastille, and reduce places like Avernus to second-tier dungeons for people who play at peak hours but can't fight the power groups for looting rights.

Between those two options, I would prefer how the system works now, which enables everyone to access high quality loot and adamantine provided they are patient and provides those who want to get loot without fighting/dealing with other people a means to do so by doing more difficult content. I worry that limiting highest-tier loot to the highest-tier dungeons would restrict access to the most powerful factions that are able to prevent their enemies and/or outsiders from doing these dungeons, further entrenching their power at the expense of their rivals and independent PCs.

Are there other ways of organizing this?

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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by stoneheart- » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:53 pm

TroubledWaters wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:35 pm
But that is the reward, is it not? There's competition for loot and resources in the easiest/quickest/most popular spots (Avernus, Aurilites, RDI, etc.), and your ability to go elsewhere and do content others can't/don't want to do lets you gather your loot and resources with less competition.
That is not true however, you can run RDI quickly and get a vial blueleaf and a grandiose vein or do Deep Wells and get a vial blueleaf and a grandiose vein. "Competition" is not as rough as you believe it to be, with proper timing (choosing non-peak hours) you're pretty much guaranteed a rune/ore drop from the easier locations.

The prevailing attitude I think is that it's fine that content is hard, just make it worth the while. Pirate chests prove that people are willing to brave hard content for a good reward. It's even fun and exciting to do so. I think the Deep Wells in particular could use something like the pirate chests, especially as it was billed on its release as being something of an "artifact hunt". But.. there are no artifacts to speak of to gather. Adding cool/unique items, useful resources/runes to a chest is a great way to incentivize people to do your content. I can tell a lot of work and love went into the Deep Wells, but I just dont want to sink the time and effort in when I can get my vial blueleaf or fragment theurglass easier elsewhere for less time investment.

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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Scurvy Cur » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:55 pm

TroubledWaters wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:35 pm
But that is the reward, is it not? There's competition for loot and resources in the easiest/quickest/most popular spots (Avernus, Aurilites, RDI, etc.), and your ability to go elsewhere and do content others can't/don't want to do lets you gather your loot and resources with less competition.
Except it really doesn't.

None of the above areas has such high traffic that, as an example, it makes sense to do deep wells to the wyrm boss (2-3 hours probably) or Bastille (also 2-3 hours) instead of waiting your turn at RDI (10-15 minutes, nearly identical loot). Even assuming that, for example, you're constantly dealing with RDI traffic (and in the last 2 months of play, I have run into other people doing RDI twice, Aurilites once, and Avernus not a single time), you're still getting far more out of 2-3 hours of sharing it with other people than you will out of RDI.

We're not really comparing "slight differences in time to complete or difficulty", here. We're comparing dungeons that take 10x as long to run, much greater risk, and an actual party for identical rewards to those obtained from an easily soloable 15 minute run.

I personally don't want the hard dungeons nerfed (and I strongly doubt that Xerah and Zav do either). But I would like to see a reward increase commensurate with the difficulty and time to complete. It's good to have a range of difficulty on epic level content. It's not so good when the end of dungeon reward is about the same for Arelith's easiest runs as it is for its hardest.


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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by TroubledWaters » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:03 pm

stoneheart- wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:53 pm
That is not true however, you can run RDI quickly and get a vial blueleaf and a grandiose vein or do Deep Wells and get a vial blueleaf and a grandiose vein. "Competition" is not as rough as you believe it to be, with proper timing (choosing non-peak hours) you're pretty much guaranteed a rune/ore drop from the easier locations.
That's exactly my point, though! You are much more likely to get ganked or killed over loot at RDI than you are at the Deep Wells.
Scurvy Cur wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:55 pm
None of the above areas has such high traffic that, as an example, it makes sense to do deep wells to the wyrm boss (2-3 hours probably) or Bastille (also 2-3 hours) instead of waiting your turn at RDI (10-15 minutes, nearly identical loot).
And yeah, I agree with that in the sense that for most players, their time/risk/reward calculation would favor RDI over the Deep Wells. But if you consider that you may get killed and also lose time to rez sickness, the calculation can change.
Scurvy Cur wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:55 pm
I personally don't want the hard dungeons nerfed (and I strongly doubt that Xerah and Zav do either). But I would like to see a reward increase commensurate with the difficulty and time to complete.
I would like this too, but I don't know how there could be a reward increase at the highest dungeons without reducing rewards at lower dungeons, either explicitly by having them drop lesser tier loot or implicitly by having them drop the same loot that would now be outclassed by the loot from the hardest dungeons. This creates access and control issues for the highest tier loot, which on one hand could seem fair and right as the strongest groups should have access to the strongest items, though could seem unfair and exclusive to those who aren't able to tackle the hardest content.

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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:46 pm

increase the flat gold coin drops from mobs in the hardest/longest dungeons.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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garrbear758
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:46 pm

TroubledWaters wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:03 pm
I would like this too, but I don't know how there could be a reward increase at the highest dungeons without reducing rewards at lower dungeons, either explicitly by having them drop lesser tier loot or implicitly by having them drop the same loot that would now be outclassed by the loot from the hardest dungeons. This creates access and control issues for the highest tier loot, which on one hand could seem fair and right as the strongest groups should have access to the strongest items, though could seem unfair and exclusive to those who aren't able to tackle the hardest content.
Doesn't even need to be stuff mechanically stronger. Wisp bottles, single use command spell items like a 1x scry mirror or create portal object, or a 1/day portal lens, and other unique "rp stuff" would make them worth doing.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

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Edens_Fall
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 1066
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:45 am
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Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:30 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:46 pm
TroubledWaters wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:03 pm
I would like this too, but I don't know how there could be a reward increase at the highest dungeons without reducing rewards at lower dungeons, either explicitly by having them drop lesser tier loot or implicitly by having them drop the same loot that would now be outclassed by the loot from the hardest dungeons. This creates access and control issues for the highest tier loot, which on one hand could seem fair and right as the strongest groups should have access to the strongest items, though could seem unfair and exclusive to those who aren't able to tackle the hardest content.
Doesn't even need to be stuff mechanically stronger. Wisp bottles, single use command spell items like a 1x scry mirror or create portal object, or a 1/day portal lens, and other unique "rp stuff" would make them worth doing.
I agree! Better loot (or unique) for the longer, harder dungeons would be nice to see.

stoneheart-
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:07 pm

Re: New and Overtuned

Post by stoneheart- » Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:52 pm

TroubledWaters wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:03 pm
That's exactly my point, though! You are much more likely to get ganked or killed over loot at RDI than you are at the Deep Wells.
That hasn't been my experience. All of the times I've been murked in any character life have been on well-traveled roads. Very rarely, in dungeons of any kind. It's not something that should influence module design, anyway.

Drowboy
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:30 am

Re: New and Overtuned

Post by Drowboy » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:36 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:46 pm

Doesn't even need to be stuff mechanically stronger. Wisp bottles, single use command spell items like a 1x scry mirror or create portal object, or a 1/day portal lens, and other unique "rp stuff" would make them worth doing.

1/day portal lens is such a good idea for these. Not mechanically strong, fully qol, and still something people would pay decent money for if they can't go out and find it themselves.
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