Ork wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:24 am
Mage: The biggest issue with your claims is that your points are all over the place.
MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:06 am
I get that balancing can be hard when there are alot of big numbers and fancy things and I don't know this server or game well so my advice might not be amazing but I have often found that in most cases "simple is best".
You start off with a caution about how you're not familiar with the server, and don't really know how best to approach game balance, but then in the same post.
MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:06 am
It was stated earlier that a level 12 area had a boss with 9th circle spells. Pure mages don't have 9th circle spells at level 12 so why would enemies?
In PVP can a 5th circle summon compete with a 9th circle summon? Can they even touch a 9th circle summon? No, they would be obliterated.
You make an assumption that there are monsters/bosses on this server with such a huge disparity of power that they're using L9 spells in areas where player characters could never have access to these spells. Here's the issue with this line of thinking. It is a generalization made on the comment of someone else.
In actuality, the vast majority of bosses and mobs on this server are relatively EASY. If I go to the Wharftown Boys Hideout at level 10, I will without a doubt be able to solo this location considering I have adaquate AC to withstand most of the mobs' attacks. I made the comment that if you prepare, you'll be relatively successful.
As Skibbles says, most of us have played here for awhile and we can prepare well enough. But, let's say maybe you got swarmed and all the sudden you're chugging potions trying to stay alive.
MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:23 am
I don't know about you but I have been in quite a few situations where I could not simply "move out of it's effect before taking rolls for damage/stun". Perhaps I got stunned by something else first, maybe I got bogged down by bodies in the way, maybe path finding sent me into a random tree, this game is slow and cumbersome to play at times and you cannot just wave off a big out of nowhere spike in difficulty with "just play better".
Playing better is what you need to do. Let's say you die to Krahk the Minotaur boss on Skal. He
IS verifiably much harder than all the other spawns in his area. What do you do? You'd have us believe that Krahk is poorly designed if
you are not able to defeat him. We play on a multiplayer roleplay server. There are plenty of people that can join your adventuring party, and you'll find success. The story that comes from that success (or failure) is the reason why we're playing Arelith. It isn't for gold, or XP, or any other metric.
MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:23 am
The whole point of "balance" is to keep things reasonable so that people with little to no skill/knowledge and people with alot of skill/knowledge can enjoy something.
This is not the purpose of balance. The purpose of balance is whatever Irongron deems it should be. He makes the areas, he makes the mobs, he balances these locations for player consumption. It doesn't matter what you or I or Jimbob Joe says about mobs. Irongron has listened to complaints about mob strength before, and even in this very thread he mentioned he would look over them. Rational, informed feedback is listened to by our server owner, and that's a good thing. What isn't useful are generalized complaints, gripes about vague deaths, and criticisms without substance. Reference Scurvy's post in this topic. It outlines how I'd go about reporting issues for dungeons. He uses facts to support his claims about area imbalances.
MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:07 am
Unless the death penalty logic has been changed from back when I'm pretty sure the wait time is longer than "a few minutes" and it isn't just exp. If you end up burning a ton of supplies then you need to resupply as well, if you were relying on a team they may need to readjust or have to leave altogether, if you were playing on the weekend because your weekdays are full then you may not have enough time to follow up on that and may have to give up. I'm not sure if you are aware of this fact but "nothing in life is free" no matter what those advertisements try to claim.
Damn, you died. What happens now? This server has a long history of supporting the mantra of "when bad things happen to good adventurers". The synopsis is to roll with the punches. Get a party next time. Make sure you get barkskin potions and adaquate healing supplies before heading out. See if you can get a town cleric to buff you. These are all actions you can do to ensure your success. I don't have a lot of time to play these days. I know the crunch when you have to eat that respawn pill and know your gametime is done for the evening. But, to remove the possibility of defeat means that you're also removing the possibility of a more gratifying success later on. I mentioned the Skal Dragon crushed me. I know that I could've given up and honestly there would've been little to no consequence for that action. However, I'm a stubborn bastard.
MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:23 am
Also, what happens if they have DC 99 3000 Damage Acid Splash? What if there are thirty of them? Or they have the high ground and you can't hit them with spells due to your sight being blocked? Or you are standing on 100 damage traps.
Remember when I said that well-informed criticism is listen to? This won't be. It's purely hyperbolic and not based in actual experience.
MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:23 am
There are quite a few games out there that use this formula to create challenging gameplay. Singular dumb enemies with one job working with other dumb enemies who also have one job. It just takes some creativity with the environment and enemy placement to sell it.
Discussions of balance should be held within the confines of this game. You either have an attack or a spell coming your way. There are ways to mitigate both of these effects. Having AC, having DR, having immunities, using spells wisely like the Shield spell. These allow you to weather a lot of damage that would be otherwise coming your way. If you have 40 AC and all the mobs have 20 AB, you're avoiding the vast majority of damage. Using numbers to your advantage is part of being prepared in NWN.
MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:54 pm
I play most games on the highest or second highest difficulty I will have you know. I do not require "handholding" to progress in anything.
MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:08 pm
NwN is a game where balance is harder to recover because everything is slow and cumbersome. Therefore even more wiggle room needs to be allowed for someone to recover from a mistake.
This is what I mean by handholding. You don't need wiggle room to recover from a mistake. I don't mean this rudely but you just need to get good at NWN or die trying (and do it all over again more prepared this time).
Let's see, what does the rude person have to say today? Let us summarize.
"You are all over the place"
I've had multiple people hit up different points of what I have posted, most of which with extremely short responses. If you guys are going to be so all over the place and vague with your responses it doesn't leave me much choice but to hit up as many points as I can in the hopes of nailing at least one.
"You warned everyone you might not know what you are talking about."
Yeah, I did, didn't I? So how about a bit less attitude and a bit more advice? You are also free to say nothing at all if that suits you.
"You make an assumption that there are enemies on this server using level 9 spells in an area where players would not have level 9 spells"
....How is it an assumption IF EVERYONE SAYS IT'S TRUE!? Seriously, no one has denied the "level 12 players versus a level 9 spell casting boss" so why should I believe otherwise? If it's not true then say so.
"Get good and remember RP is more important than winning"
Get good is the dumbest/laziest advice in the world and yet people keep using it, pathetic. And, yes I agree that RP is more important than winning however wasn't the topic of conversation the "mechanical balance" of the server? Even if RP is more important that has no bearing on the current conversation.
"The purpose of balance is decided by the overlord and everyone else's opinion is meaningless."
Then...WHAT....THE....HELL....is the point of having a forum where people post feedback? You just rendered everything pointless with that one statement.
"Specific examples are good, vague cryptic warnings are bad".
Um...mister pot you are needed on the set in 5 minutes to go call kettle black again. Seriously, you have been nothing but vague this entire time and I have tried to scrounge together whatever I could spending 30 minutes to respond to statements you likely thought up in 5 seconds. If you want a more accurate and on point discussion then you had best put a bit more effort into it mister "knows everything but says nothing".
"You died, learn from it and try better next time"
Again, the conversation is about the balance of the server and what makes things fun. You can literally say that about any game regardless of whether it has great or horrible balance. Aside from the ones you never die in of course.
"Removing the possibility of defeat means less enjoyment later on"
I never once said to remove the possibility of defeat. Have you really never played a game that telegraphs what comes next to the player but is still difficult? You should try increasing the variety of games you play. It will really help to expand your understanding of things.
"Big numbers do not exist in game and therefore are useless information for balance discussions"
Ah, a classic example of taking a single sentence out of context and claiming it "is" the point. It was an exaggerated example I made in response to another post with the purpose being to give a clear and obvious example of how a dumb AI could win a fight against a player of equal spell level while completely trivializing the difference in skill between the two. To be clear I have been reading your posts up and down to try and make sure the sentences I am grabbing are at the core of "your" points. You are welcome.
"All discussions about a game should only be about that game"
That is an opinion you are having. My opinion is games "always" have something to learn from one another. If you narrow your focus to only what is in front of you then you "will" miss out on something big.
"Stats are important"
Yes, yes they are. I'm pretty sure I said earlier that stats are one of the most basic things a person can look at when deciding balance. I'm not sure how this is an arguement against what I have said but alright. If you like I can give you a more proper arguement to the post you were quoting as kind of a freebie. "Enemy positioning and combinations can be countered effectively with the proper allocation of stats". Yes, yes they can. Doesn't change the fact that interesting enemy combinations and environment setups can make for more challenging encounters even if they are a bunch of weaklings. I did offer to draw up a quick blueprint to make my point a bit more clear earlier.
"Get good"
Did you SERIOUSLY say that again in the same post? No, but for real though...how does saying this help ANYONE? It isn't a strategy, isn't a weapon, it isn't even a state of mind to have or a method of encouragement. It serves absolutely no purpose in any context.
"Do it right or die and try again"
Been over that in the previous conversation. This statement can be made for any game regardless of balance. It proves nothing and it convinces no one of anything.
"I don't mean to be rude but"
This is never a good way to preface any kind of statement. Like the moment you include "but" you basically negate what was just said. Sorry "but" I have frankly lost interest in discussing this topic with you so this will be my last reply.