New and Overtuned

[MageTankTech]

If you're talking about the boss with storm of vengeance, c'mon man. Bosses have unique and special abilities to keep it competative. Don't really need the summoning strawman to prove your point since that doesn't happen with any boss.

Would you prefer it if I had compared Fireball to Hellball? We can do that if you like though I'm pretty sure the level 12 character will be dead after the first cast.

Unique means different, it doesn't have to mean better than.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

To my knowledge, the only lvl 12 boss that casts SOV is an optional miniboss. Is there an enemy required for writs that casts it?

[Ork]

If you're talking about the boss with storm of vengeance, c'mon man. Bosses have unique and special abilities to keep it competative. Don't really need the summoning strawman to prove your point since that doesn't happen with any boss.

Would you prefer it if I had compared Fireball to Hellball? We can do that if you like though I'm pretty sure the level 12 character will be dead after the first cast.

Unique means different, it doesn't have to mean better than.

No, just to be accurate in your critiques. Storm of Vengeance has a pretty potent counter - clarity. In addition, it is a fixed AoE, you can move out of its effect before taking rolls for damage/stun. The boss is also optional as Party mentions. Hyperbolically comparing SoV to Hellball isn't remotely accurate to the threat level that spell holds.

[MageTankTech]

If you're talking about the boss with storm of vengeance, c'mon man. Bosses have unique and special abilities to keep it competative. Don't really need the summoning strawman to prove your point since that doesn't happen with any boss.

Would you prefer it if I had compared Fireball to Hellball? We can do that if you like though I'm pretty sure the level 12 character will be dead after the first cast.

Unique means different, it doesn't have to mean better than.

No, just to be accurate in your critiques. Storm of Vengeance has a pretty potent counter - clarity. In addition, it is a fixed AoE, you can move out of its effect before taking rolls for damage/stun. The boss is also optional as Party mentions. Hyperbolically comparing SoV to Hellball isn't remotely accurate to the threat level that spell holds.

I don't know about you but I have been in quite a few situations where I could not simply "move out of it's effect before taking rolls for damage/stun". Perhaps I got stunned by something else first, maybe I got bogged down by bodies in the way, maybe path finding sent me into a random tree, this game is slow and cumbersome to play at times and you cannot just wave off a big out of nowhere spike in difficulty with "just play better".

And it's true, Hellball will nuke you in an instant where as Storm of Vengeance may take a few seconds, but ultimately whether something is a threat and how much of a threat it is will be based on how prepared you are for it as opposed to your ability to make last second plans.

If you want to be technical about it a Hellball has no "threat level" at all if you neutralize the caster before they can even use it. By that same logic SOV can wipe an entire team if they are not prepared for it. Saying something is balanced because you can theoretically deal with it is no different from saying balance is meaningless because people will figure it out eventually.

The whole point of "balance" is to keep things reasonable so that people with little to no skill/knowledge and people with alot of skill/knowledge can enjoy something. Spikes in difficulty that come seemingly out of nowhere are the antithesis to reasonable. If you want to challenge people without having to ambush them the best thing to do is to keep things steady and gradually ramp up the difficulty. I mean, isn't that the whole point of "levels" in a game like this? To increase the complexity and challenge as the player advances further and further in level by not only providing the enemy with more options but the player as well?

Difficulty spikes punish new and inexperienced players. It is rare to hear game design being praised for this.

[Ork]

Clarity is readily available and moving out of the AoE common game knowledge. Being prepared is a huge trope and aspect of D&D and being punished for unpreparedness is part of the fun. Dying on Arelith is hardly a consequence when you can roll back out in a few minutes without losing too much XP.

On Skal, I died 3 times to the Dragon boss at the end of the quest progression. The first few times were to wyvern jumping in from the edge of the map and another from bad positioning. When I finally defeated that Dragon, I felt amazing. I wish I could do it again from scratch. If a dungeon doesn't present a modest challenge, it can rarely hold my attention for long.

All that to say, don't champion game design because you're worried new players might get their feelings hurt. Some of us enjoy the challenge. If you don't? Thankfully, you can avoid that boss entirely (and all the content that challenges you as a player while you're at it).

[MageTankTech]

Clarity is readily available and moving out of the AoE common game knowledge. Being prepared is a huge trope and aspect of D&D and being punished for unpreparedness is part of the fun. Dying on Arelith is hardly a consequence when you can roll back out in a few minutes without losing too much XP.

On Skal, I died 3 times to the Dragon boss at the end of the quest progression. The first few times were to wyvern jumping in from the edge of the map and another from bad positioning. When I finally defeated that Dragon, I felt amazing. I wish I could do it again from scratch. If a dungeon doesn't present a modest challenge, it can rarely hold my attention for long.

All that to say, don't champion game design because you're worried new players might get their feelings hurt. Some of us enjoy the challenge. If you don't? Thankfully, you can avoid that boss entirely (and all the content that challenges you as a player while you're at it).

Unless the death penalty logic has been changed from back when I'm pretty sure the wait time is longer than "a few minutes" and it isn't just exp. If you end up burning a ton of supplies then you need to resupply as well, if you were relying on a team they may need to readjust or have to leave altogether, if you were playing on the weekend because your weekdays are full then you may not have enough time to follow up on that and may have to give up. I'm not sure if you are aware of this fact but "nothing in life is free" no matter what those advertisements try to claim.

As a reminder the main point of my original statement was "Base what the enemies can do on what the players of the suggested level can do". And I'm not worried about new players getting their feelings hurt I was trying to make a suggestion for a simple methodology which one could use to help deal with the constant issues that keep being brought up over balancing. Can you prove that my logic would fail if it were applied? That a constant and reliable difficulty curve wouldn't be both enjoyable and engaging for both new and old players?

You keep saying you need difficulty and challenge to enjoy this game but what constitutes either aspect in your eyes?

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Before we continue can you tell us what dungeon it is? The only one that comes to mind for that level range is the buccaneer den north of the Crow's Nest, I don't know if any of the other new added content has the spell being used.

Personally I don't think the spell is that bad. Of all of the difficult things a boss can spring on you, I mind SoV the least because you can run out of the way of it before lightning strikes. I've never seen an area where SoV is cast where you do not have the option to run away. The buccaneer den tunnels are tight, but that gives you an added benefit to fight the boss. You can run out of line of sight and force it to run to you. Seeing a boss pop out weird is much more frightening than SoV.

[MageTankTech]

Clarity is readily available and moving out of the AoE common game knowledge. Being prepared is a huge trope and aspect of D&D and being punished for unpreparedness is part of the fun. Dying on Arelith is hardly a consequence when you can roll back out in a few minutes without losing too much XP.

On Skal, I died 3 times to the Dragon boss at the end of the quest progression. The first few times were to wyvern jumping in from the edge of the map and another from bad positioning. When I finally defeated that Dragon, I felt amazing. I wish I could do it again from scratch. If a dungeon doesn't present a modest challenge, it can rarely hold my attention for long.

All that to say, don't champion game design because you're worried new players might get their feelings hurt. Some of us enjoy the challenge. If you don't? Thankfully, you can avoid that boss entirely (and all the content that challenges you as a player while you're at it).

Unless the death penalty logic has been changed from back when I'm pretty sure the wait time is longer than "a few minutes" and it isn't just exp. If you end up burning a ton of supplies then you need to resupply as well, if you were relying on a team they may need to readjust or have to leave altogether, if you were playing on the weekend because your weekdays are full then you may not have enough time to follow up on that and may have to give up. Ultimately, the penalty for death is pretty relative.

As a reminder the main point of my original statement was "Base what the enemies can do on what the players of the suggested level can do". And I'm not worried about new players getting their feelings hurt I was trying to make a suggestion for a simple methodology which one could use to help deal with the constant issues that keep being brought up over balancing. Can you prove that my logic would fail if it were applied? That a constant and reliable difficulty curve couldn't be both enjoyable and engaging for both new and old players?

You keep saying you need difficulty and challenge to enjoy this game but what constitutes either aspect in your eyes?
[/quote]

[Xerah]

The skill of a player with level X spells is vastly different than an AI with the same level spells, so that’s kind of a foolish starting point.

[MageTankTech]

The skill of a player with level X spells is vastly different than an AI with the same level spells, so that’s kind of a foolish starting point.

I mean, the only thing more basic to look at would be stats. Typically when trying to balance something you go with the most basic settings first.

Also, what happens if they have DC 99 3000 Damage Acid Splash? What if there are thirty of them? Or they have the high ground and you can't hit them with spells due to your sight being blocked? Or you are standing on 100 damage traps.

You speak as though player skill is such a huge determining factor but if you change any random circumstances related to those spells then suddenly the AI wins. Try planning everything about an enemy around a single spell. Suddenly Player skill versus AI skill becomes a null point because the AI only has to do the one thing to be effective. Now imagine if there are several enemies working in tandem, each with a single spell? What if in the earlier example there was an enemy with Time Stop paired up with the Enemy using Storm of Vengeance? And another couple of enemies to dispel your clarity?

"The skill of a player with level x spells is vastly different than an AI with the same level spells." Doesn't stop them from winning now does it?

There are quite a few games out there that use this formula to create challenging gameplay. Singular dumb enemies with one job working with other dumb enemies who also have one job. It just takes some creativity with the environment and enemy placement to sell it.

Anyways, I stand by what I said in the first place. Keep it simple. One enemy, one spell/ability, one plan. And just get creative from there.

If the challenge of DnD is supposed to be in the preperation and planning then having enemies with obvious but strong setups means a player has to go through alot more steps to win. From there it's just a matter of conveying the information to the player ahead of time so that they have at least some idea of what it is they need to prepare for. My suggestion is to have enemies with weaker but similar formations to the boss setup earlier in the dungeon. Don't just make them the same race and have the boss arrive with some out of left field ability. Planning requires foresight and aside from running in and dying stupid deaths or being fortunate enough to have someone with you who knows the boss it's kind of hard to know what to plan for without some hints.

If you would like I could draw up some sort of blueprint to serve as an example of what I am talking about.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Why are you replying to everyone except me.

[Xerah]

So many words...

It's not, at all, a good metric to use in NWN (or even most games unless it is PVP). You've made your point and I don't see what further points are this is going to do.

[MageTankTech]

So many words...

It's not, at all, a good metric to use in NWN (or even most games unless it is PVP). You've made your point and I don't see what further points are this is going to do.

I am not enough of an expert on the subject to say how well it will work with regards to NWN but with regards to your comment on other games that is certifiably untrue. There are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many successful games out there that do "this" "exact" "thing". In fact I would not be surprised if this is the most commonly used tactic in the gaming industry in general.

Most nintendo games do this thing, the souls series does it, a ridiculous amount of rpgs do it. I am not going to waste my time naming every game that has had enemies with stupid simple ai, one attack, and with balance and focus of the difficulty being entirely dependent on where they are placed, who they are working with, and what the environment is designed like.

I just look at Nwn being slow and cumbersome and think about how much a more intentional system of balance like this might help it.

As for what further points are going to do...probably nothing? But it's not hurting anyone and no one is required to respond so until people lose interest I see no harm in continuing to talk about it.

Why are you replying to everyone except me.

To be perfectly honest, I missed your last reply, sorry.

[MageTankTech]

Before we continue can you tell us what dungeon it is? The only one that comes to mind for that level range is the buccaneer den north of the Crow's Nest, I don't know if any of the other new added content has the spell being used.

Personally I don't think the spell is that bad. Of all of the difficult things a boss can spring on you, I mind SoV the least because you can run out of the way of it before lightning strikes. I've never seen an area where SoV is cast where you do not have the option to run away. The buccaneer den tunnels are tight, but that gives you an added benefit to fight the boss. You can run out of line of sight and force it to run to you. Seeing a boss pop out weird is much more frightening than SoV.

To be clear I was piggybacking off of someone else stating a boss in a level 12 area had a 9th circle spell so I have no idea where. As I've stated already I do not believe difficulty spikes are a positive for most people in most situations.

And the problem with this isn't "how simple it is to run away from it" the problem is what happens if you are caught unprepared for it. Like that one spell against a level 12 team can absolutely cause a team wipe. One boss, one skill, can kill off a large group of people because they were surpised...doesn't that sound just a tiny bit overtuned? Obviously at later levels you have better saves, and more hp and more varied defenses so being wiped out by something like that alone is "Extremely" unlikely...but earlier in the game when health is alot lower this basically becomes a case of...oops, we made one single mistake and now our entire team has to do things all over again.

I feel the same way about one hit instant ko attacks in most games. I don't mind enemies hitting hard, I don't mind if an enemy can kill me in two or three attacks, but I want that warning that something is going to be difficult before it instantly takes me out. At that point it feels like all of my progress and efforts were rendered pointless because, oh, hey, I didn't see this coming and it is impossible to recover from this.

This goes into what I consider to be an enjoyable sense of balance, where games knock you off balance but leave you just enough leeway to recover your footing. I can tolerate a game constantly keeping me on my toes because there is always this little bit of wiggle room to move around and steady myself with. But, the moment they knock you off your feat and say "no you can't get back up again" is the moment I just turn away from them.

NwN is a game where balance is harder to recover because everything is slow and cumbersome. Therefore even more wiggle room needs to be allowed for someone to recover from a mistake. Alternatively as I suggested before giving players hints about future difficulty can go a long way. Filling the dungeon with enemies that use stunning and lightning spells may very well be enough of an indication of what the boss is likely to throw out. If the boss has archers spread around the room and you know he is going to stun you then you will absolutely approach the situation with caution and try to bait out what he is going to use. At that point, yeah SoV won't be an issue because you had an idea of what was coming. Maybe you had some sort of protection against stun or lightning or maybe you had a tank linger just in range of the assault with a healer ready to back him up.

Again, sorry if you felt ignored. Here ya go.

[Ork]

Maybe this isn't the game for you if you want to be handheld through dungeons. Or maybe it is. Arelith's dungeons are notoriously easy after all.

[MageTankTech]

Maybe this isn't the game for you if you want to be handheld through dungeons. Or maybe it is. Arelith's dungeons are notoriously easy after all.

I play most games on the highest or second highest difficulty I will have you know. I do not require "handholding" to progress in anything. Also, given that "you" were the one to speak of "being prepared" as a fun aspect of D&D it surprises me that you would be so against one of the key aspects of being prepared...knowing what to prepare for. Proper Strategy requires foresight into what you are dealing with. Would you bring a heavy snow coat to a desert? No, you would die from heatstroke in less than an hour.

But then how would you know whether or not to bring that snow coat if you have no knowledge of whether or not you are going into a desert or an icy tundra? Now is it "handholding" to be told that you were going into a desert in this instance? No, it is key and critical information upon which you would build your entire strategy around. Information and planning go hand in hand.

Also, last time I checked the Souls series are "notoriously difficult" and yet they still manage things like hints about upcomming content in their various dungeons. You often know what type of terrain, or enemies or even what style of boss is going to be next just based on what you faced previously. It is up to the player to discern this knowledge for themselves of course and those who are unobservant will naturally be punished for it. But the fact is that the information is there and the game is by all accounts still challenging to play.

You still haven't explained what challenge means in your eyes by the way.

[MRFTW]

Also, last time I checked the Souls series are "notoriously difficult" and yet they still manage things like hints about upcomming content in their various dungeons. You often know what type of terrain, or enemies or even what style of boss is going to be next just based on what you faced previously. It is up to the player to discern this knowledge for themselves of course and those who are unobservant will naturally be punished for it.

So, for example, lizardfolk all over the island using acid damage, then a lizardfolk boss using a big acid spell like SoV? Or slimes with weak damage shields, that when you meet them in harder areas, have very strong damage shields? Weak dragonlings with weak breath attacks, and strong dragons with strong breath attacks?

You said yourself earlier in the thread:

This is just the suggestion of someone who doesn't know much about the balance of this game/server so take it with a grain of salt.

Some players and devs have been trying to tell you very politely that the above statement is correct. What you're seeing now is them running out of patience.

[MageTankTech]

Also, last time I checked the Souls series are "notoriously difficult" and yet they still manage things like hints about upcomming content in their various dungeons. You often know what type of terrain, or enemies or even what style of boss is going to be next just based on what you faced previously. It is up to the player to discern this knowledge for themselves of course and those who are unobservant will naturally be punished for it.

So, for example, lizardfolk all over the island using acid damage, then a lizardfolk boss using a big acid spell like SoV? Or slimes with weak damage shields, that when you meet them in harder areas, have very strong damage shields? Weak dragonlings with weak breath attacks, and strong dragons with strong breath attacks?

You said yourself earlier in the thread:

This is just the suggestion of someone who doesn't know much about the balance of this game/server so take it with a grain of salt.

Some players and devs have been trying to tell you very politely that the above statement is correct. What you're seeing now is them running out of patience.

Why are they running out of patience? It's not like they are required to respond to me. Also the only responses I recall getting are

Maybe this isn't the game for you if you want to be handheld through dungeons. Or maybe it is. Arelith's dungeons are notoriously easy after all.

So many words...

It's not, at all, a good metric to use in NWN (or even most games unless it is PVP). You've made your point and I don't see what further points are this is going to do.

The skill of a player with level X spells is vastly different than an AI with the same level spells, so that’s kind of a foolish starting point.

Clarity is readily available and moving out of the AoE common game knowledge. Being prepared is a huge trope and aspect of D&D and being punished for unpreparedness is part of the fun. Dying on Arelith is hardly a consequence when you can roll back out in a few minutes without losing too much XP.

On Skal, I died 3 times to the Dragon boss at the end of the quest progression. The first few times were to wyvern jumping in from the edge of the map and another from bad positioning. When I finally defeated that Dragon, I felt amazing. I wish I could do it again from scratch. If a dungeon doesn't present a modest challenge, it can rarely hold my attention for long.

All that to say, don't champion game design because you're worried new players might get their feelings hurt. Some of us enjoy the challenge. If you don't? Thankfully, you can avoid that boss entirely (and all the content that challenges you as a player while you're at it).

I could keep pulling earlier quotes but I think the point is made clear enough. So no, I have not seen a single response from anyone in this thread aside from you claiming "yes, the statements you made are correct, this is in fact how the game is balanced". If anything I have been getting the exact opposite of that in terms of responses claiming that my idea is not a good one.

In the end, all I want to do is to discuss this concept of balancing, plain and simple. There is nothing wrong with me attempting to have this conversation and anyone wishing to bow out from this conversation is free to do so.

[Richrd]

Arelith's dungeons are notoriously easy after all.

Eh, come on. You should know better.
Does Arelith have stupidly easy dungeons? Yes.
But does Arelith also have some ridiculous powercreep in some places that quite literally requires you to either play the meta or get lost because you won't hit shit? Does Arelith have powercreep bosses that have some ridiculous spell and feat arsenals? Yup and yes.

The amount of community feedback in regards to balancing the game's stats and the overall work that goes into it makes Arelith feel like an MMO lite, not a RPG focused experienced.

[Ork]

What feedback are you alluding to, richrd? Are you agreeing that the pirate boss is too hard because it has access to SoV? I'm confused. Your second paragraph contradicts your first.

Are you disagreeing that our dungeons are generally easy when compared to other nwn servers or even other games of the same genre? Ultimately, well-reasoned critiques reach Irongron's ear. He might not agree with the assertions and that's 100% his right, but he listens. I've yet to see anything well-reasoned in the last page or so of this topic.

[xf1313]

Some arguments are unnecessary because it is a feedback thread, keep claiming there is no challenge is not helping others. But equivalent of saying there is no problem and others just need to shut up. Everyone have the choice to dump the gears and run deep wells with bronze weapon and amour.. to get the challenge.

Kind of hope more people post on the locations that is overtuned or undertuned, and the classes they were playing. The dungeons may have a slightly different standard, meant to be dealt in groups. Still, if a group of 3 or 4 within the level range cannot complete the writ, that need to be looked into as well.

The outdoor areas, in my opinion, should be a bit safer. At least a prepared individual within the level range, regardless of class can pass through with some challenge. The original post has made a great point where the new jungle was too difficult, and I am glad to see it is made safer.

[MageTankTech]

Ultimately, well-reasoned critiques reach Irongron's ear. He might not agree with the assertions and that's 100% his right, but he listens. I've yet to see anything well-reasoned in the last page or so of this topic.

I have yet to hear a single explanation from you regarding what proper balance is and instead I keep getting generic "I want challenge" statements from you.

Why were those dragons earlier challenging to you? You mentioned an ambush and that is all. You said Arelith dungeons are easy but didn't clarify that either. You started to give a proper explaination with the SoV and clarity business but then you just dropped it afterwards. It must be so easy to sit in your high chair saying how my opinion that I have spent quite a bit of time detailing is wrong while you give these lazy single sentence answers in response.

I would like to discuss balance but if all you can say is "you are wrong" without even the slightest hint as to why then there is absolutely nothing to gain from this discussion and claiming that nothing I have said is "well-reasoned" is neither helpful nor productive and it sure as hell isn't nice. You pretty much lost my respect with that statement.

To be clear, I "was" fine with your other posts because obviously that is how we learn, one person gives their opinion and someone else responds with their own. Different ideas lead to improvements overall...but the moment you draw a line in the sand and say that another person's ideas and opinions are beneath you...the moment you try to assert your superiority by putting them down is the moment learning ceases and all there is to gain from your opinion is negative feelings. You can have a negative opinion of someone without sharing it.

[Skibbles]

I can't really tell what the argument even is anymore but any dungeon should be, more or less, easily researched and prepared for just by asking other characters about it. 95% of characters are not a brand new player and will probably know, and if they don't they'll just say so and then a different character can be asked.

Recently I ended up helping a new player complete a very low level writ with my level 30 ranger. They randomly asked for directions, I ended up showing them there, and then they were a little confused on how to progress so I ended up helping out further and showing them around. (That dang derro dungeon if anyone is wondering).

So it should, in theory, be relatively easy to find out what to expect or find assistance for a new or difficult place. I've even had a business revolving around exploration and stuff like this for a while and it was fun.

However, on the flip side, some dungeons can be really hard or (and my personal distaste) outright obnoxious to complete - like the derro dungeon that used to confuse just about everyone until it was avoided and regarded as a classic noob trap for even taking the writ as the common advice on completing it came to be 'drop the contract'. Thankfully feedback prevailed and the hidden spot check was removed and the place made available.

So some places do occassionally need a review. However I, like ork, really enjoy difficult dungeons. Mobs that drop SoV really aren't too difficult, and places like the Grimlocks in the UD have spawns where more than one of them will cast it while you're barely level 15. It's a real 'oh crap' moment but it's very fun to get through as a team.

Small pro-tip for new players: Killing a caster of a spell cancels the effect even though it still remains visually present. So if a mob casts SoV then a common way to deal with it is just to focus the effort into killing them. Then you can just hang out in the rain and it won't do anything. I think the exception to this might be creeping doom but it's a bad spell so who really cares.

Another tip about area spells: no matter the caster level an area spell like SoV or some cloud effect is very easily removable with a plain dispel wand. I'm not sure of the actual math but it feels like about a 75% chance of success in removing any area spell with a simple wand action if the area can't be avoided.

Also I just want to add and agree that the Maur dungeon is super fun and a gold standard.

[Ork]

Mage: The biggest issue with your claims is that your points are all over the place.

I get that balancing can be hard when there are alot of big numbers and fancy things and I don't know this server or game well so my advice might not be amazing but I have often found that in most cases "simple is best".

You start off with a caution about how you're not familiar with the server, and don't really know how best to approach game balance, but then in the same post.

It was stated earlier that a level 12 area had a boss with 9th circle spells. Pure mages don't have 9th circle spells at level 12 so why would enemies?

In PVP can a 5th circle summon compete with a 9th circle summon? Can they even touch a 9th circle summon? No, they would be obliterated.

You make an assumption that there are monsters/bosses on this server with such a huge disparity of power that they're using L9 spells in areas where player characters could never have access to these spells. Here's the issue with this line of thinking. It is a generalization made on the comment of someone else.

In actuality, the vast majority of bosses and mobs on this server are relatively EASY. If I go to the Wharftown Boys Hideout at level 10, I will without a doubt be able to solo this location considering I have adaquate AC to withstand most of the mobs' attacks. I made the comment that if you prepare, you'll be relatively successful.

As Skibbles says, most of us have played here for awhile and we can prepare well enough. But, let's say maybe you got swarmed and all the sudden you're chugging potions trying to stay alive.

I don't know about you but I have been in quite a few situations where I could not simply "move out of it's effect before taking rolls for damage/stun". Perhaps I got stunned by something else first, maybe I got bogged down by bodies in the way, maybe path finding sent me into a random tree, this game is slow and cumbersome to play at times and you cannot just wave off a big out of nowhere spike in difficulty with "just play better".

Playing better is what you need to do. Let's say you die to Krahk the Minotaur boss on Skal. He IS verifiably much harder than all the other spawns in his area. What do you do? You'd have us believe that Krahk is poorly designed if you are not able to defeat him. We play on a multiplayer roleplay server. There are plenty of people that can join your adventuring party, and you'll find success. The story that comes from that success (or failure) is the reason why we're playing Arelith. It isn't for gold, or XP, or any other metric.

The whole point of "balance" is to keep things reasonable so that people with little to no skill/knowledge and people with alot of skill/knowledge can enjoy something.

This is not the purpose of balance. The purpose of balance is whatever Irongron deems it should be. He makes the areas, he makes the mobs, he balances these locations for player consumption. It doesn't matter what you or I or Jimbob Joe says about mobs. Irongron has listened to complaints about mob strength before, and even in this very thread he mentioned he would look over them. Rational, informed feedback is listened to by our server owner, and that's a good thing. What isn't useful are generalized complaints, gripes about vague deaths, and criticisms without substance. Reference Scurvy's post in this topic. It outlines how I'd go about reporting issues for dungeons. He uses facts to support his claims about area imbalances.

Unless the death penalty logic has been changed from back when I'm pretty sure the wait time is longer than "a few minutes" and it isn't just exp. If you end up burning a ton of supplies then you need to resupply as well, if you were relying on a team they may need to readjust or have to leave altogether, if you were playing on the weekend because your weekdays are full then you may not have enough time to follow up on that and may have to give up. I'm not sure if you are aware of this fact but "nothing in life is free" no matter what those advertisements try to claim.

Damn, you died. What happens now? This server has a long history of supporting the mantra of "when bad things happen to good adventurers". The synopsis is to roll with the punches. Get a party next time. Make sure you get barkskin potions and adaquate healing supplies before heading out. See if you can get a town cleric to buff you. These are all actions you can do to ensure your success. I don't have a lot of time to play these days. I know the crunch when you have to eat that respawn pill and know your gametime is done for the evening. But, to remove the possibility of defeat means that you're also removing the possibility of a more gratifying success later on. I mentioned the Skal Dragon crushed me. I know that I could've given up and honestly there would've been little to no consequence for that action. However, I'm a stubborn bastard.

Also, what happens if they have DC 99 3000 Damage Acid Splash? What if there are thirty of them? Or they have the high ground and you can't hit them with spells due to your sight being blocked? Or you are standing on 100 damage traps.

Remember when I said that well-informed criticism is listen to? This won't be. It's purely hyperbolic and not based in actual experience.

There are quite a few games out there that use this formula to create challenging gameplay. Singular dumb enemies with one job working with other dumb enemies who also have one job. It just takes some creativity with the environment and enemy placement to sell it.

Discussions of balance should be held within the confines of this game. You either have an attack or a spell coming your way. There are ways to mitigate both of these effects. Having AC, having DR, having immunities, using spells wisely like the Shield spell. These allow you to weather a lot of damage that would be otherwise coming your way. If you have 40 AC and all the mobs have 20 AB, you're avoiding the vast majority of damage. Using numbers to your advantage is part of being prepared in NWN.

I play most games on the highest or second highest difficulty I will have you know. I do not require "handholding" to progress in anything.

NwN is a game where balance is harder to recover because everything is slow and cumbersome. Therefore even more wiggle room needs to be allowed for someone to recover from a mistake.

This is what I mean by handholding. You don't need wiggle room to recover from a mistake. I don't mean this rudely but you just need to get good at NWN or die trying (and do it all over again more prepared this time).

[Skibbles]

Also to throw in one more thing: if a dungeon is frustrating or too much of an unknown you can also reach out to anyone tagged for AMA and ask about it. It isn't my favorite thing to answer but I've had questions about that kind of stuff in the past.

AMA is a valuable tool and I assume all of us who are flagged with it are happy to help.