Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

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Fava Beans
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Fava Beans » Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:03 am

Feedback on elemental overcharge

That damage you take for casting can really creep up on you! though the duration is a bit wonky, with 26 base cha it didnt feel very worthwhile to use in many scenarios, unless you are about to cast high cost spells specifically. though i was hoping it to be more along the lines of an emergency magic injection if you run out of focus, its far to unpredictable to be useful in that regard

Though, using it for your expensive focus costing buffs? or to drop your powerful AOEs on some thing as an opener? potentially very useful for managing focus costs in dungeons. It certainly will have a use, though the unreliability in its duration dosent feel to great, perhaps if possible, scaling the cooldown with the duration? get a low duration roll you can use it a bit faster, a long duration you have to wait a bit longer to use it again.


for now, my final thoughts on elemental overcharge are that it is totally adequate, it provides a means to offset focus drain if used wisely, though the feedback damage dosent seem to be anything more than flavor, though i imagine in combat is where the risk comes in.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Drowboy » Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:25 am

[Hemomancer feedback]
-A 'fresh' (from one) Hemomancer with 22+ cha at level 20 does not get the epic caster flag as mentioned in the notes. Tried relogging, resting, leveling to 19 and back to 20. Only got it when fulling leveling to 21 hemomancer. This prevents them from getting an epic spell at 21.
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Amnesy » Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:11 am

Amnesy wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:59 pm
Reserved for adjustments

27-Jun-2022 - Notice:
+ Elementalist will receive a signature ability in the future (it is being redesigned). Details will be shared once the design is concluded.
+ There are very minor things that are left to be FOIG in both sub-classes. They are not mechanically impactful.
- Elementalist, Earth path feature IV, is not having the See Invisibility passive (my bad on announcements, it is already edited out).
+ PGCC-specific things: Rest is 2 ticks instead of 8.
+ PGCC-specific things: Server ticks might not happen if I recall right.

29-Jun-2022 - Notice:
+ Invoker 1.1 patch released, read more about it here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25&p=298998#p298998
+ Invoker 1.2 patch released, read more about it here: viewtopic.php?f=23&p=299119#p299119

Known issues 1.2:
+ -A 'fresh' (from one) Hemomancer with 22+ cha at level 20 does not get the epic caster flag as mentioned in the notes. Tried relogging, resting, leveling to 19 and back to 20. Only got it when fulling leveling to 21 hemomancer. This prevents them from getting an epic spell at 21. [Bug, will be fixed]

Balancing features:
> Open:
+ Could consecutive cast work only in combat - to avoid paying more for buffing sessions. [Let's wait and see, Invokers do not have many buffs, especially above 4th tier. If that becomes a real problem on actual regular gameplay I am keen to do something about buffing cost (probably by switching off the double cost on an individual spell basis - where it fits). I am leaving this suggestion/feedback point open.]
+ Hemomancer: Shriek not sure if it's intended but, Shriek attacks non-hostiles too. I personally like it. [It was intended, I will leave it open for the time being.]
+ Remove RND from Elemental Overcharge? [hmhmhmhm v2]
+ Add more necro feel / HP loss on Hemomancer. [While a few necro spells could be added especially around lower levels; the blood magic in general I would like to see as a separate development that would produce more spell and unique mechanics for them, while at the same time opening the theme to other classes.]

> Reviewed on v1.2:

============================= :Archive: =============================
Balancing features:
> Reviewed on v1.1:
- Could IP regeneration rate increase with levels? [For the time being no. The rest recovers a lot of IP and they regen faster the more depleted the pool is. Furthermore, Red Harvest IP gain increases with levels slightly (which will be a lot given just 18 sec CD); while both Ele and Hem spells cost less on invoking adept and even less on invoking master. IP management is meant to be part of the charm, and a little challenge - especially if PC goes supernova.]
+ Balagarn's Iron Horn is selected at lvl 3. Which means it now ignores all Spell immune shields like Ethereal visage and just knocks any mage on it's behind that relies on that. [Adjusted in Patch 1.2.]
+ Elementalist signature spells to hit with force on 70% IP+ (currently EH 75%+, EA 90%+); given the rest IP gain is capped at 75% and more IP need to be server ticked on it would close that 1-2 spells <ooof-blast> behind the clock. [Adjusted in Patch 1.2.]
+ AC values will be closely monitored. Elementalist/Monk build I got looks quite on the strong side. [Addressed in Patch 1.2 #SoftGateNerf.]
+ Hemomancer: Shriek can currently kill... an insane amount of enemies in one go. This will most likely lead to people pulling an entire dungeon and using Shriek to kill them off. Unlocking insane dungeon or area grinding potential the moment Shriek is unlocked. Perhaps a cap on number of enemies afflicted while favoring Players over NPC's? [Target limit will be added = to CL in Patch 1.2.]

Known issues 1.1:
+ Double cost exception on invoking master and invoking adept does not work as intended on low spell level: excepted 1,2 for adept and 1,2,3,4 for master. [Yeah my dumdum mind did < instead of <=. Fixed in Patch 1.2.]
+ Hemomancer can rest to get 75% IP while it should be 50%. [Fixed in Patch 1.2.].
+ Hemomancer Red Harvest signature ability is not messaging the healing received. [Fixed in Patch 1.2.].
+ Hemomancer Red Harvest healing seems lower than what it should be when blood stacks are used. [Fixed in Patch 1.2.]
+ Resting does not reset the Increased Cost of spells. (might be intended, not sure) [Fixed in Patch 1.2.]
+ Hemomancer has no access to Disjunction at tier 9. [Fixed in Patch 1.2.]
+ Hemomancer passive regen is 2 at class feature III instead of 1. [Fixed in Patch 1.2.]

Drowboy
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Drowboy » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:15 am

Will invokers get the 'new mage' treatment where they'll get added to the arcane wand user pool?

Edit: [hemomancer feedback]
Epic abjuration focus on hemomancer doesn't give you the clicky for ward.
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Fava Beans
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Fava Beans » Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:28 am

Feedback on updates elemental overcharge

Inverse problem now, it feels VERY long, and the self dmg effect is very manageable now that i have experienced it, its duration is long enough to let me blitz several spawns, heal and blitz a few more.

The long duration definitely feels too long with too little drawback, i think either cutting the cutting the stacking duration buffs down or dramatically increasing the self damage effect could solve this.

|A long duration with a higher self damage threshold means once you commit to overcharge you better be sure you have control of the situation or it could get very deady. doubling or tripling it i think would offset the dps of the duration by forcing you to pause and heal, thus opening weak spots in your defense. making it much more hazardous to yourself i personally feel is a better rout. i tested my full duration an was hardly into the first 8th of my hp

with a shorter duration on overcharge it would be more reasonable 'free damage' you can do, getting nearly 3 minutes of free spells is very, very strong, thousands of free damage at very little personal risk.

A pure, high cha elemntalist would seriously outclass a trueflame in sustained dps with almost non existent personal risk, upping the hazard significantly or cutting the duration is my take from the duration change

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Amnesy » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:57 am

Drowboy wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:15 am
Will invokers get the 'new mage' treatment where they'll get added to the arcane wand user pool?

Edit: [hemomancer feedback]
Epic abjuration focus on hemomancer doesn't give you the clicky for ward.
Invokers will be added to arcane wand users

ESF/GSF RP cookies should be fixed next patch!

Amnesy
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Amnesy » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:59 am

Fava Beans wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:28 am
Feedback on updates elemental overcharge

Inverse problem now, it feels VERY long, and the self dmg effect is very manageable now that i have experienced it, its duration is long enough to let me blitz several spawns, heal and blitz a few more.

The long duration definitely feels too long with too little drawback, i think either cutting the cutting the stacking duration buffs down or dramatically increasing the self damage effect could solve this.

|A long duration with a higher self damage threshold means once you commit to overcharge you better be sure you have control of the situation or it could get very deady. doubling or tripling it i think would offset the dps of the duration by forcing you to pause and heal, thus opening weak spots in your defense. making it much more hazardous to yourself i personally feel is a better rout. i tested my full duration an was hardly into the first 8th of my hp

with a shorter duration on overcharge it would be more reasonable 'free damage' you can do, getting nearly 3 minutes of free spells is very, very strong, thousands of free damage at very little personal risk.

A pure, high cha elemntalist would seriously outclass a trueflame in sustained dps with almost non existent personal risk, upping the hazard significantly or cutting the duration is my take from the duration change
I have cut the duration by around 30% in the upcoming patch alongside of slightly upping the damage.
Also, casting on overcharge will have a small % of bringing surge.
Stay tuned.

Fava Beans
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Fava Beans » Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:42 pm

Amnesy wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:59 am
Fava Beans wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:28 am
Feedback on updates elemental overcharge

Inverse problem now, it feels VERY long, and the self dmg effect is very manageable now that i have experienced it, its duration is long enough to let me blitz several spawns, heal and blitz a few more.

The long duration definitely feels too long with too little drawback, i think either cutting the cutting the stacking duration buffs down or dramatically increasing the self damage effect could solve this.

|A long duration with a higher self damage threshold means once you commit to overcharge you better be sure you have control of the situation or it could get very deady. doubling or tripling it i think would offset the dps of the duration by forcing you to pause and heal, thus opening weak spots in your defense. making it much more hazardous to yourself i personally feel is a better rout. i tested my full duration an was hardly into the first 8th of my hp

with a shorter duration on overcharge it would be more reasonable 'free damage' you can do, getting nearly 3 minutes of free spells is very, very strong, thousands of free damage at very little personal risk.

A pure, high cha elemntalist would seriously outclass a trueflame in sustained dps with almost non existent personal risk, upping the hazard significantly or cutting the duration is my take from the duration change
I have cut the duration by around 30% in the upcoming patch alongside of slightly upping the damage.
Also, casting on overcharge will have a small % of bringing surge.
Stay tuned.
sounds good, surges? love it, ill never complain about surges.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Amnesy » Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:21 am

Amnesy wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:59 pm
Class go live with Patch 1.4, and 3 week grace period to convert.

Notice:
+ Invoker 1.1 patch released, read more about it here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25&p=298998#p298998
+ Invoker 1.2 patch released, read more about it here: viewtopic.php?f=23&p=299119#p299119
+ Invoker 1.3 patch released, read more about it here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25&start=975#p299305
+ Invoker 1.4 patch released, read more about it here: viewtopic.php?f=23&p=299398#p299398
+ Wiki page is in the works, stay tuned!
+ Invoker craftable items are in the design stage, they will be there one day! In the meantime Armor of Immolation or Spelltheifs Armor are quite the solid picks.

Known issues:


Balancing features:
> Open:
+ Could consecutive cast work only in combat - to avoid paying more for buffing sessions. [Let's wait and see, Invokers do not have many buffs, especially above 4th tier. If that becomes a real problem on actual regular gameplay I am keen to do something about buffing cost (probably by switching off the double cost on an individual spell basis - where it fits). I am leaving this suggestion/feedback point open.]
+ Hemomancer: Shriek not sure if it's intended but, Shriek attacks non-hostiles too. I personally like it. [It was intended, I will leave it open for the time being.]
- Could IP regeneration rate increase with levels? [For the time being no. The rest recovers a lot of IP and they regen faster the more depleted the pool is. Furthermore, Red Harvest IP gain increases with levels slightly (which will be a lot given just 18 sec CD); while both Ele and Hem spells cost less on invoking adept and even less on invoking master. IP management is meant to be part of the charm, and a little challenge - especially if PC goes supernova.].

> Reviewed/pending action:

Q&A:
+ Should Invokers have familiars? [In the future they might, the groundwork is there, but at this point, there is no ETA as I want them to be different than what Wiz/Sorc have skin wise]
+ Water elementalist not having water-breathing (no visible buff). [It is hardcoded in swimming base script, non-dispellable ; )]

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Aren
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Aren » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:09 am

Hemomancer so far:

Cantrips do not count as alternate spells - this is very important at lower levels.

Spell specifics:

Call Lightning destroys corpses, thus it's not a spell worth casting.

Scintillating Sphere is supposed to be the lightning version of Fireball, yet it has medium range as opposed to Fireball that has a long range. This is important on a class that relies somewhat on kiting or engaging from a distance.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Aren » Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:21 pm

Hemomancer has a hard time staying afloat at lower levels - I go through my Focus at immense speeds, even if I use Red Harvest on cooldown on myself/others and play "smart" with my spell selection.

".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:17 pm

Aren wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:21 pm
Hemomancer has a hard time staying afloat at lower levels - I go through my Focus at immense speeds, even if I use Red Harvest on cooldown on myself/others and play "smart" with my spell selection.
I didnt want to say anything because my testing did not focus on this aspect of the class but from just testing spells and different combinations I was also left with a feeling that it lacks "mana regeneration". Maybe spells in general cost too much early on or maybe Focus should increase more in ticks. At the same time, when you figure out the best spell casting patterns who get you the best dps for the lowest cost, for every dungeon, then maybe it becomes significantly easier (to a degree that it might just feel indistinguishable from infi mana for that spell pattern) so I'm not sure. I have a feeling that this class will need to go through several more tweaks to it's mana flow over the first few weeks it's live.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Amnesy » Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:04 pm

For mana regen, I will think of tweaking Red Harvest to be of more use at early levels.
Most likely a slight boost to base Focus leech + extra if it manages to slay the target.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Aren » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:25 pm

Amnesy wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:04 pm
For mana regen, I will think of tweaking Red Harvest to be of more use at early levels.
Most likely a slight boost to base Focus leech + extra if it manages to slay the target.
I think the +extra if you use it as a "finisher" could be interesting.

I will say though, that it seems that my focus issues were alleviated a bit by hitting 10.

".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
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Fava Beans
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Fava Beans » Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:02 pm

Now that i have the hang of the class, its pretty great, my only feedback so far now that i have tinkered with it on the live server is waiting for those 5 minute ticks can be rough. dividing it up per minute instead of a chunk every 5 minutes would be a wonderful qol, the common practice of speeding through dungeons, not even waiting for the looter has so far left me just not participating for chunks of dungeons to wait for server ticks.


otherwise, its an awesome class and i think you did a great job with it amnesy

EDIT: specifically playing as a n elementalist, for context.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by DeckOfManyEverythings » Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:05 pm

I've been playing a bit of both versions on live. I'm getting the hang of it, and it's really fun on both versions.

However, I agree that elementalist getting a large tick at once leaves it feeling like its an amazing burst but then a lot of waiting.


Hemomancer early on is hard. It's very low per tick, and only using 1 blood harvest per 18sec (3rounds) can easily be once per battle (darkness, blood leech 1 target, hit with aoe, either kill or repeat an aoe again). Given your limited defences, unless you have a party willing to wait to let you use it over and over, it's pretty much once per spawn, especially if you're using AoEs to ensure a good level of FP efficiency/mob. Maybe it could be made a bit more potent or frequent? I think this would have issues later on, but 2.5% FP vs what an elementalist gets is a lot.
This issue might be alleviated as said above by hitting level 10 and then mastery. Maybe something like vampiric touch could be added with a chance to add fp or similar for thematic based spells.

At present their regain per tick just doesn't quite feel right on either path, but I feel its been easier as an elementalist than a hemomancer. This is just personal experience, as I play both more, I'll maybe add.

Spell selection wise, they feel good. Not totally contrarian but different enough, especially in defensive options. One thing I did wonder was, would a toggle be addable to make all damage do X path's damage for elementalists? I don't imagine so, but it could be interesting.

Great class and a lot of fun, just the FP regen feels a bit off right now and early on, but I can't speak to later levels on live for that.

Edit: Anything I've said might get better and be fine! I'm just pitching in my general experience.

Edit 2: I'm level 8 on a hemomancer and just spent all of combat in darkness (in bramble woods), not going for bloodstack gain (because that'll damage me, or cost me FP) and getting 1fp per use got me not very much higher for the time investment, especially when you paid for darkness.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Aren » Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:27 pm

DeckOfManyEverythings wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:05 pm
I've been playing a bit of both versions on live. I'm getting the hang of it, and it's really fun on both versions.

However, I agree that elementalist getting a large tick at once leaves it feeling like its an amazing burst but then a lot of waiting.


Hemomancer early on is hard. It's very low per tick, and only using 1 blood harvest per 18sec (3rounds) can easily be once per battle (darkness, blood leech 1 target, hit with aoe, either kill or repeat an aoe again). Given your limited defences, unless you have a party willing to wait to let you use it over and over, it's pretty much once per spawn, especially if you're using AoEs to ensure a good level of FP efficiency/mob. Maybe it could be made a bit more potent or frequent? I think this would have issues later on, but 2.5% FP vs what an elementalist gets is a lot.
This issue might be alleviated as said above by hitting level 10 and then mastery. Maybe something like vampiric touch could be added with a chance to add fp or similar for thematic based spells.

At present their regain per tick just doesn't quite feel right on either path, but I feel its been easier as an elementalist than a hemomancer. This is just personal experience, as I play both more, I'll maybe add.

Spell selection wise, they feel good. Not totally contrarian but different enough, especially in defensive options. One thing I did wonder was, would a toggle be addable to make all damage do X path's damage for elementalists? I don't imagine so, but it could be interesting.

Great class and a lot of fun, just the FP regen feels a bit off right now and early on, but I can't speak to later levels on live for that.

Edit: Anything I've said might get better and be fine! I'm just pitching in my general experience.

Edit 2: I'm level 8 on a hemomancer and just spent all of combat in darkness (in bramble woods), not going for bloodstack gain (because that'll damage me, or cost me FP) and getting 1fp per use got me not very much higher for the time investment, especially when you paid for darkness.
Focus starvation becomes less of an issue as soon as you hit 10. So you can look forward to that :-)

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Adrianmostfun
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Adrianmostfun » Wed Jul 13, 2022 9:54 pm

The hemo spells Massacre, and Soul Shriek aren't innate and i'm curious why? You have to use a 7th and 9th spell slot for them. The HEMOmancer or bloodmages main thematic spells are optional? I don't understand why the main thematic spells of the class aren't just innate?


I'd imagine the reason the reason is because of balance; being able to get both spells without incurring any cost may be to much but I'm curious what other people's opinions on this are.
It just seems weird thematically that you can avoid the main spells of the class, and that you have to use spellslots to obtain what is basically the whole point in playing it.

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