Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

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Amnesy
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Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Amnesy » Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:59 pm

Hello,

While providing feedback please categorize subclasses, it will be easier for me to follow.

I.e.:

[Elementalist Feedback]
- Bullet text
Reason: text here

[Hemomancer Feedback]
- Bullet text
Reason: text here

Thank you!

Amnesy
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Amnesy » Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:59 pm

Class went live with 1.4 patch and 3 weeks of grace period to convert.

Notice:
+ Invoker 1.1 patch released, read more about it here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25&p=298998#p298998
+ Invoker 1.2 patch released, read more about it here: viewtopic.php?f=23&p=299119#p299119
+ Invoker 1.3 patch released, read more about it here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25&start=975#p299305
+ Invoker 1.4 patch released, read more about it here: viewtopic.php?f=23&p=299398#p299398
+ Wiki page is in the works, stay tuned!
+ Invoker craftable items are in the design stage, they will be there one day! In the meantime Armor of Immolation or Spelltheifs Armor are quite the solid picks.

Known issues:
+ Invokers don't consume spell components prior to 28 class level. [Will be fixed.]
+ On some cases the first 1st level spell is being replaced with chromatic orb and then removed upon relog. [hmhmhm]
+ Cantrips do not count as alternate spells - this is very important at lower levels. [We'll have a look with Kalopsia and fix it]
+ Hemomancer can server tick above to 75% (capping at 100%) which will be normalized to 75% upon using any signature ability. [Will be fixed.]


Balancing features:
Spell specifics, outside of signature spells:
+ Call Lightning destroys corpses, thus it's not a spell worth casting.
+ Scintillating Sphere is supposed to be the lightning version of Fireball, yet it has medium range as opposed to Fireball that has a long range. This is important on a class that relies somewhat on kiting or engaging from a distance.

> Open:
+ Could consecutive cast work only in combat - to avoid paying more for buffing sessions. [Let's wait and see, Invokers do not have many buffs, especially above 4th tier. If that becomes a real problem on actual regular gameplay I am keen to do something about buffing cost (probably by switching off the double cost on an individual spell basis - where it fits). I am leaving this suggestion/feedback point open.]
+ Hemomancer: Shriek not sure if it's intended but, Shriek attacks non-hostiles too. I personally like it. [It was intended, I will leave it open for the time being.]
- Could IP regeneration rate increase with levels? [For the time being no. The rest recovers a lot of IP and they regen faster the more depleted the pool is. Furthermore, Red Harvest IP gain increases with levels slightly (which will be a lot given just 18 sec CD); while both Ele and Hem spells cost less on invoking adept and even less on invoking master. IP management is meant to be part of the charm, and a little challenge - especially if PC goes supernova.].

> Reviewed/pending action:

Q&A:
+ Should Invokers have familiars? [In the future they might, the groundwork is there, but at this point, there is no ETA as I want them to be different than what Wiz/Sorc have skin wise]
+ Water elementalist not having water-breathing (no visible buff). [It is hardcoded in swimming base script, non-dispellable ; )]

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Drowboy » Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:19 pm

[Hemomancer Feedback]
This is extremely minor but- a command to show your blood stacks/invoker pool would be nice. I've seen other servers that used the new ui stuff to make like, bars for that type of thing, but it's probably more effort than worth.

Showing on rest/date would be nice too.

Edit: You can select planar conduit on hemomancer, but they don't get it in their radial to cast.
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Fava Beans » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 am

This is more feedback on replacing true flames entirely with no grandfathering, the prevention of dark blessing, and the 'mana pool' we will have to deal with, instead of being forced into new classes we were never designed for or RPed around for will we be able to get our starting stats and classes changed? i have played my true flame for years and this new forced class just simply is not what i made or have been RPing the character as for years.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Xerah » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:30 am

I have a hard time believing you can’t make an extremely similar character with the options available now.

This “class” is a holdover of no Hak content and was bound to be adjusted into a new class as you see here. I think this is the last one of these awkward pseudo classes that was due for replacement and it seems to have finally made this into something interesting.
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Fava Beans » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:47 am

true flames were very distinctive, major constancies in my RP will be lost, and my lvl spread bars me from benefiting from even mid epic class boons. The level spread is a reflection of the years of RP i have done, so basically im at best, mediocre. or i just give up the identity of the character and dont have an IG character that matches their RP

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Ork » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:54 am

Whats the build and roleplay? We can help. The good news is TF was already mediocre so you're really only net improving on that chassis. Though probably should make a different feedback thread for this.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Lewtzy » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:25 am

[Hemomancer Feedback] (lvl 30 hemo)
- Additional cost is not reset on rest.
Reason: As the Additional cost seems to be checking a timer, it does not reset on resting. (Checked with extended true seeing on Hemo.)

- Passives are not present. (as far as I can tell)
Reason: The passives listed in the forum post cannot be found in the feat list, and character is not immune to fear.
(EDIT: This seems to happen when the character dies. It loses all passives. A relog wont fix it. A relevel will.)

- DC on Shriek seems low?
Reason: 36 DC on 40 charisma with ESF Evocation.

- Regeneration persists through resting
Reason: Just.. noticed that it does. Not sure if its intended.
Last edited by Lewtzy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Scylon
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Scylon » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:07 am

Requires more looking, however the Hemo level 9 spell is not very good in its current state.

It's a fort save which equals 0 damage, and deathward also. It's wail but worse.

I'd suggest making it will save = half damage and a fort save or death. Wiggle that into the tier system.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Gee look who » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:30 am

I have been testing the classes on both paths and here is my feedback:

[Both paths]
BUG: The option for the plannar conduit is available, but the spell won't show up for any path (as I have stated on discord)
As the class now has a limited amount of spells cast (unlike truefrost) I think it should be ok to add cantrips to it, so you can use when you are out of IP. Also, cantrips like Light are great for RP purposes (I like to setup my furnitures with red light, for instance, when I'm making rituals). Another option is to make level 1 spells cost no IP, but I think cantrips are easier to balance.

[Elementalist]
+ the class looks like trueflame, without the restriction of casting stuff from scrolls or items, wich is good.
- I am missing the lower level spells Darkness and cloud of bewilderment, that I used a lot while leveling for defense purposes.
- I am not seeing the IP I have, maybe it should show on every heartbeat (if it changed), but it doesn't look like its raising for me. Also I rested and recovered just 2 ticks of 7.5% (on pgcc), maybe because of the quicker rest of pgcc? I'm not sure, but I think rest should get you to 100%.
- I think there should be a way to recover IP, like the red harvest of the hemomancer. Maybe do the same thing but only works on elementals (so we can use scrolls to call elementals and drain their power, that would be cool)
- Suggested cantrips: light, flare, electric jolt, ray of frost, acid splash

[Hemomancer]
+ really cool concept, I like the idea
+ I'm ok with the spell list, but missed a bit of vfx spells that true frost has
- I didn't find it very easy to understand how the stacks of blood work. Maybe more feedback in the combat log?
- I think hemomancer should get IP back every time he does a killing blow, possibly with a vfx, that would be really cool, and evil
- Suggested cantrips: light, daze, inflict minor, resistance, virtue

Thats all for now... I will test more taking leveling up in mind tomorrow.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by mourisson1 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:00 am

[ElementalistBender]
The ninth signature spell is weaker than fifth, because it has reflex save, thus evasion avoid it completely, while fifth has will, so it does at least half damage. It would be nice seeing those two saves swapped, so the signature spell of best circle cant be avoided completely :)
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Drowboy » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:43 pm

[Hemomancer Feedback]
-Massacre DC wrong
Explanation: 14 charisma, epic spell focus evo. 7th level spell. 10+7+14+6 = 37. 6 Blood Stacks burned, DC +1.
Spell DC should be 38.

Actual DC: 34.

-Soul Shriek DC 35.
Explanation: See above but for a level 9 spell.
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Amnesy » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:16 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:43 pm
[Hemomancer Feedback]
-Massacre DC wrong
Explanation: 14 charisma, epic spell focus evo. 7th level spell. 10+7+14+6 = 37. 6 Blood Stacks burned, DC +1.
Spell DC should be 38.

Actual DC: 34.

-Soul Shriek DC 35.
Explanation: See above but for a level 9 spell.
Thanks, the culprit is identified and will be corrected (see 2nd post for known issues)

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:37 pm

[Hemomancer Feedback]
- is it Evocation?
Reason: I notice the core of the subclass seems be tied to evocation, the school of soemthingnout of nothing, force walls, and elemental fury.

Using blood and soul energy and death descriptors added spells seems more necromancy, or at least transmutation.

Is there balance concerns changing some core stuff to necromancy foci instead of evocation? In particular soul shriek or its red harvest ability?

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Drowboy » Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:42 pm

I like that it's still 'invoking,' tagging everything even a little dark as necromancy (and, eventually, evil, since people don't do nuance) just pigeonholes it.

Also they don't really have that many necromancy spells?
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Amnesy » Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:48 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:37 pm
[Hemomancer Feedback]
- is it Evocation?
Reason: I notice the core of the subclass seems be tied to evocation, the school of soemthingnout of nothing, force walls, and elemental fury.

Using blood and soul energy and death descriptors added spells seems more necromancy, or at least transmutation.

Is there balance concerns changing some core stuff to necromancy foci instead of evocation? In particular soul shriek or its red harvest ability?
That is a very good question design wise.
Usually, BM is treated as Evo, Neco, Abju, Trans
Yet most of the kit is aimed to reside around evo, thus you can see limited save or die spellbook.
It could be read as QoL as it would be painful to tax 3 feats for 2 class features. Possibly it could be considered to scale from both (whichever is higher - and allowing the PC to make the narrative and choice around it).

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by fading » Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:50 pm

I really feel like they shouldn't have access to planar conduit/mummy dust. They have no summoning/undead spells, why would they be able to access the strongest type of summons?

More importantly, it ruins the mechanical theme of the class, if by epic levels they can just hide behind a summon like every other caster, it strips away what makes them unique.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Amateur Hour » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:37 pm

I'm wondering why invokers don't get to have familiars? It's one of those cool RP cookies I've associated with the other arcane classes.
Last edited by Amateur Hour on Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by garrbear758 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:57 pm

General feedback: I really like the idea and themes overall. The concept of a "mana" caster is super cool and makes them unique from other classes. I understand the reasoning behind wanting to prevent divine synergy, but I would just limit that to divine shield. Dipping divine just for saves on a full caster is a good tradeoff from dipping ranger or bard, who can get stealth and other more useful skills, and otherwise you're pretty much limiting their dip to one of those two or specialist.

I also absolutely love that repeating spells costs more IP to encourage finding good combos and rotations.

With that said, the classes seem really weak. They have a significantly worse spell list and burst potential than a sorc, while at the same time not reaching the sustain, damage output, or utility of a warlock. The classes feel like they're supposed to sit somewhere between the two, but end up worse than either.

Neither class has the burst to cut through healpots, especially without timestop, and they don't have the sustain to burn through healing and keep casting their stronger spells.

Elementalist
-They get lesser and regular spell mantle but not greater. They should get regular at 7 and greater at 9, which would allow them to use empowered at 9. They also get mass haste but not regular haste which seems a weird choice.
-Without igms, their damage output is pretty bad. Their signature spell, elemental annihilation, being a reflex for 1/2 makes it pretty useless. I would definitely leave the daze in, which you mentioned being looked at, but in addition I would remove the reflex save entirely. At best you're looking at 27d8 + 27 which averages 148.5. That's not much higher than a maximized IGMS, and the damage drops off significantly after just 2 casts, assuming you start at 100% IP and cast no other spells. It's also partially blocked by energy buffer and anything else protecting from elemental damage. Additionally, daze isn't a hard cc. You can drink potions while dazed, including a clarity pot to remove it. I would do the same for elemental hammer and remove the save for the damage and keep the save for the daze and saves reduction.

Hemomancer
-Their spell list is even worse than elementalist. They should also get regular spell mantle at 7. I would give them haste and mass haste as well, along with improved invisibility.
-Massacre should lose the fort save to lower the damage (keep it for the panic)
-Soul shriek is really bad. Deathward is not breachable, and a fort save vs damage is objectively worse than other spells that have a fort save vs dying. Drop the save vs damage, and change the deathward to ethereal visage like implosion. With it consuming blood stacks, you won't be able to sustain the damage output and it functions more as a one time burst.
-Give them mords at 9 and kyristans at 7
-The DC for red harvest is too low for it to be useful. I'd consider removing the dc entirely as well. It's only 87.5 average damage with full blood stacks. It's a close range ability on a class that has no avenues for high AC and is very risky to use, so it should be worth the risk.

Overall, I love the classes thematically, but they seem like they're trying to be balanced similar to TF, which was already a trap pick. They should sit somewhere in between sorc and warlock ideally, with more burst than warlock but less than sorc, and more sustain than sorc but less than warlock. In pve, this is going to be a glass cannon as they have no avenues for high AC, and the lack of summons makes that even harder. In pvp as is they are going to get absolutely shredded by any remotely meta builds right now, caster or mundane.
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by TroubledWaters » Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:16 pm

fading wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:50 pm
I really feel like they shouldn't have access to planar conduit/mummy dust. They have no summoning/undead spells, why would they be able to access the strongest type of summons?

More importantly, it ruins the mechanical theme of the class, if by epic levels they can just hide behind a summon like every other caster, it strips away what makes them unique.
I am inclined to agree, but also the invoker has lost some of the best TF spells, most importantly IGMS, and can no longer inficast. It appears that it will take them ages to clear dungeons waiting for cooldowns if they don't get any summons.

Edit-
garrbear758 wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:57 pm
With that said, the classes seem really weak. They have a significantly worse spell list and burst potential than a sorc, while at the same time not reaching the sustain, damage output, or utility of a warlock. The classes feel like they're supposed to sit somewhere between the two, but end up worse than either.

Neither class has the burst to cut through healpots, especially without timestop, and they don't have the sustain to burn through healing and keep casting their stronger spells.
Also yes, this 100%. I played around with hemo on the PGCC and I kept wondering how exactly it's supposed to kill anything, given the prevalence of 40+ saves and improved evasion. The class just seems very weak.

I don't understand why Soul Shriek has a death save if it doesn't actually kill anything. It already has a fort save and even if your opponent fails the fort save, it's only a max 250 dmg AOE when it uses the maximum amount of Blood Stacks. This isn't all that much damage in PvE or PvP, though I still don't know practically how easy it will be to charge up stacks for it.

That said, this looks like it could be fun and I'm looking forward to seeing how it develops!

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:16 pm

Amnesy wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:48 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:37 pm
[Hemomancer Feedback]
- is it Evocation?
Reason: I notice the core of the subclass seems be tied to evocation, the school of soemthingnout of nothing, force walls, and elemental fury.

Using blood and soul energy and death descriptors added spells seems more necromancy, or at least transmutation.

Is there balance concerns changing some core stuff to necromancy foci instead of evocation? In particular soul shriek or its red harvest ability?
That is a very good question design wise.
Usually, BM is treated as Evo, Neco, Abju, Trans
Yet most of the kit is aimed to reside around evo, thus you can see limited save or die spellbook.
It could be read as QoL as it would be painful to tax 3 feats for 2 class features. Possibly it could be considered to scale from both (whichever is higher - and allowing the PC to make the narrative and choice around it).
Requiring slight choice in spell foci isn't always a bad thing, especially since one subclass seems to have a core mechanic the other does not for restoring IP. Necro focus is also quite useful if they end up getting mummy dust at epic levels. Like most sorcerors have both conjuration and evocation.

What makes necromancy great is all the non save or die spells. The ones where you get guranteed effects even when said person passes save. You also already have most of the non summon must have necromancy spells on your spell list. Lack of Negative energy burst stands out.
here are all great necromancy spells you got on that subclass:
Finger of Agony
Fear (crowdcontrol for PvE)
Protection against negative energy
Horrid wilting
Avascular Mass
potentiallyl massacre and soul shriek (might need some tweaks)
You got others, but I did not feel they were worth mentioning being overly useful. Energy drain is really only used for high dc PM + shadow mage combo as it is another save or suck spell versus negative energy burst which has increased gained if failed saved but still does its job if save passed.


I agree with Garbear's critique where the class should feel more bursty than warlock, but worse sustain than sorceror. Than being said, it has nice qaulity of life things for PvP like Mords disjunction that warlock does not have. So Maybe we just have water downed sorceror? I am not sure because I have not done real testing for how good the IP sustain is unfortunately to comment on this. Soul shriek could be terrifying if it was will save for death and then fort save to half damage. Making soul shriek do only 125 (5 over maximized IGMS) if full stacked and saves passed. The will save could respect death ward where the fort save would just giver.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Drowboy » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:17 pm

Garrbear's above post is right- they're both really cool aesthetically and I like it better than TF, but they're pretty weak. Hemomancer's class mechanic in particular is really cool- spellspam gets you blood stacks, blood stacks boosts your health grab, health grab recharges your mana. Great.

I think, however, the numbers for blood stack generation, or stacks needed, or- just, something- needs altered there. It's not exactly easy to get blood stacks when you're burning through spells, and the sustain for mana feels a bit... bad? Especially with how, well, difficult to track blood stacks and mana are. (Cast evards and track your mana/BS. It's not great.)

An ability to chunk your own health for blood stacks would be cool.

Another look over at the spell list for both would be nice- as well as, maybe, a set of 'signature spells' for each path: blood, fire, etc, that have a further-reduced casting cost. This could let them get some of the old TF spammability back, which would I think ease the transition a bit. (And there's at least a few evo spells that, say, warlocks get, infinite, with no cooldown or mana drain.)
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by It Came From Beneath The Earth » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:15 pm

Thematically, and mechanically, I am actually very excited for this class. It sort of reminds me partially of the Kineticist from Pathfinder.

[Elementalist Feedback]
1) I feel like this class is, in its current iteration, a bit weak.

Why? Infinite casting for trueflame was only really 'good' when it could use certain evocation spells (Darkbolt, IGMS) which are just exceptionally powerful spells. With the way that saving throws tend to work, many things can kind of just ignore them. This spell list is generally more interesting, but with some key spells removed I'd say it's less reliable. Especially in a PVP context.

It can now breach defenses such as mantles, SR, and that will always, always make this better. But if you need to cast more than one or two of these spells you're now kind of seriously in trouble due to their cost. Give and take to everything. The removal of the CHA to saves, as well as divine shield basically makes the survivability of this class kind of non-existant. I don't really know why you'd pick it over a sorcerer as it is.

A lot of the spells that make this cool have super low DC's. You're fishing for 1's. That's never an enjoyable time.

How could this be fixed?

For elementalist I have a few possible ideas.

1) Increase spell scaling to some extent, for any spells that use the chosen elemental path.
2) Increase spell DC to some extent, for any spells that use the chosen elemental path
3) Increase guaranteed damage in some way for any spells that use the chosen elemental path.

Adding in cantrips will absolutely help. But look at classes like clerics. They have infinite casting now which is quite prevalent depending on the domain.

Perhaps as you level in this class, you gain one spell which becomes infinite cast for each beginner, adept, master, on a reasonable cooldown. 1/Round for the beginner spell, 1/5 rounds for adept spell, 1/10 rounds for master spell.

As an example Air: Lightning Loop, Call Lightning, Chain Lightning

Or something like that, without costing IP. Or maybe they are expanded in the damage they can do.

I am not suggesting all of these be implemented. Just different ideas that could work.

2) There is a strange possible bug in that metamagic doesn't increase the cost of mana. If this is intentional... that could be interesting. But I suspect it probably isn't!

3) I genuinely think they should be allowed to get Mummy Dust or Planar Conduit, or summon creature spells.

Why? Most casters sort of need some kind of front line. Trueflame -kind- of had this, but also not really. Mordenkainen's Sword was just bad. Wasn't worth the spell components you were putting into it. You basically had to have somebody around to cast UV on you so you could darkness spam to be not dead pretty quickly. Giving them the ability to summon especially in the epic levels just gives them more options. Free elemental stream based on the path they chose?

I genuinely am excited to see where the class goes, one way or another. It's pretty neat. And I think it can really re-vamp what trueflame was. I think there are a few people who played Trueflames and rely heavily on BG or Paladin dips which is why they are upset since it kind of kills off a lot of their AC/Saves with no tradeoff.

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Scylon
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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Scylon » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:26 pm

Regarding people talking about them getting haste, I'm not sure I agree.

I already take great issue personally with all the divine classes getting it. Haste has gone from an amazing thing offered by wizards and sorc to everyone has it.

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Re: Feedback - PGCC - Invoker

Post by Amnesy » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:31 pm

It Came From Beneath The Earth wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:15 pm
2) There is a strange possible bug in that metamagic doesn't increase the cost of mana. If this is intentional... that could be interesting. But I suspect it probably isn't!

3) I genuinely think they should be allowed to get Mummy Dust or Planar Conduit, or summon creature spells.
Thanks for the feedback,
I am leaning towards disabling epic summons in lieu of upping the blasting kit and adding some spells in on both QoL and more impactful ones.

As for Metamagic and cost, youp - you do not pay for applying metamagic on spell cost (Incanatrix vibe).

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