Class design

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Oaks
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Class design

Post by Oaks » Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:31 pm

I believe we should all now and then take the time to appreciate what we have here on Arelith - A committed team of past-time volunteers that know what they are doing. In a very niche and very old game with a rather specific target group. I think this is one of those rare cases in which internet communities have managed something unusual.

Acknowledging this doesn’t stop me from voicing my opinion to see if I’m the only one who feels this way about recent class design.

1
The way classes are changed and new classes are introduced doesn’t enable more variability and flexibility in character builds, it stifles it.

1.1
Changed and introduced classes all come with a brand flavour and specific playstyles and it's the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot to stray from those thetic playstyles.

1.2
Where in the past you could make "concepts" happen by piecing together a build from the base classes, tropes and concepts are instead introduced as fully fledged custom classes with minimal wiggle room away from the way they're designed to be played.

1.3
Heavy investment is incentivised for most changed and newly introduced classes. Classes you could previously dip into to give your concept build an additional edge or RP flavour today come with steep costs in terms of build viability. New classes come with this shoot-in-foot feature built in.

1.4
Changed and new classes are heavily defined by hard and high margins to hit; must-have capstone abilities that you can't miss out on. Scale-and-mix fades more and more into the background against a catalogue of (painstakingly designed) whole packages.


2
New and changed classes introduce specific mechanics that aren't engaging or thematic, but convoluted and removed from the setting / ruleset.

2.1
If you need an external spreadsheet to explain a new class you're introducing, it's probably oversized.

2.2
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Re: Class design

Post by Drowboy » Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:39 pm

I hate to be like "source?" but you'd probably want to give specific examples of mechanics, classes, and design choices you find align with your thesis, compared to how older classes behaved, or else it just sounds like new = bad.

Also, like, class tables have been a thing since there have been classes? Making it in excel doesn't magically make it more complicated than a class table on, say, NWNwiki.
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Re: Class design

Post by Skibbles » Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:50 pm

My brain reached peak saturation more than a year ago and I've completely stopped trying to keep up on class updates aside from a glance now and then. Even then, after a glance, I almost immediately forget what state it is in and mix it up with the some other state or class from a different year or week.

Right now, for me, I'm assuming it's a mixture of age and time limited by career, because some people seem to be keeping up or at least acting like they know what's going on. It's all pulling way ahead of me pretty steadily, but that's just how it is I guess.

It's better than nothing happening at all, I'd say, if we were to have a choice.
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Re: Class design

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:23 pm

Examples would be helpful. This just reads like a list of complaints rather than actual feedback.
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Re: Class design

Post by Itikar » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:34 pm

I have noticed this tendency as well, but some points to note:

- Classes that seem to be streamlined are not necessarily so. For instance, take Spellsword for example, it may seem that it ought to be pure, but there is nothing that actually forces you to pick up one of the paths, even though they are good. Non-pathed spellsword can easily take a 3 level dip, for example.
- Totem druid and druids in general suffer of this from forever.
- In general, while I welcome room for creativity, I think we ought to be honest. Not everybody enjoys building and theorycrafting, streamlined classes offer an alternative to these people to just take something simple and play it. As long as not every single class is like that, which is absolutely not the case, it is absolutely fine if some classes are this way.

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Re: Class design

Post by Mattamue » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:49 pm

Not only is this a 20 year old game, but its based on 20 year old 3rd edition DnD that went off the deep end in terms of complexity. There were spreadsheets 20 years ago printed in the books. Why wouldn't there be spreadsheets now? That's like being upset that your pizza has tomato sauce on it.

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Re: Class design

Post by Subtext » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:14 pm

I really really like what the team has done with the new classes. Yes, there is some truth to being railroaded when building but in essence it is no different than before.
Outside of the new classes/reworks you still have mix and match builds that feel more open and customizable on the first glance but given the meta at any given time you are still "stuck" with a very specific build that is optimal instead of having the leeway to branch out. You still have a feat tax to pay as well as plenty of must-haves to check that at the end of the day any deviation makes you noticably weaker.

I think that the new classes and reworks allow for a lot more versatility while still allowing to go deep in one class. On that note, I really like how staying pure or deep in a job is often a viable choice now as opposed to often being relegated to a dip. Paladin is a good example for that.

Warlocks are a fantastic example too with the possibility of playing them fundamentally different depending on what pacts or other abilities you choose. There is significantly more freedom than in the past and I think that's a fantastic thing.

Edit: Bard...okay. I will always resent that they get all skills as class skills.

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Re: Class design

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:26 pm

Subtext wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:14 pm
I really really like what the team has done with the new classes. Yes, there is some truth to being railroaded when building but in essence it is no different than before.
Outside of the new classes/reworks you still have mix and match builds that feel more open and customizable on the first glance but given the meta at any given time you are still "stuck" with a very specific build that is optimal instead of having the leeway to branch out. You still have a feat tax to pay as well as plenty of must-haves to check that at the end of the day any deviation makes you noticably weaker.

I think that the new classes and reworks allow for a lot more versatility while still allowing to go deep in one class. On that note, I really like how staying pure or deep in a job is often a viable choice now as opposed to often being relegated to a dip. Paladin is a good example for that.

Warlocks are a fantastic example too with the possibility of playing them fundamentally different depending on what pacts or other abilities you choose. There is significantly more freedom than in the past and I think that's a fantastic thing.

Edit: Bard...okay. I will always resent that they get all skills as class skills.
+1

I love the pure class viability we've been given to several classes, and like you mentioned, paladin and warlock are prime examples of that.

As for Bard, yes also agreed. It's bad that they're basically a better Rogue, in terms of skill monkeyness.


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Re: Class design

Post by Ork » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:35 pm

If you compare NWN's original classes and our new classes, the complaint about being railroaded is really false. Consider the paladin. In 2005, the most optimal way to build the paladin was to get holy-sword paladin and add monk and fighter to abuse the holy sword mechanic. The reason we didn't make that build was solely because of mechanics unfamiliarity. Now, we have paladin dips, deep paladins and even mid paladin builds that each perform differently.

Currently, mechanics aren't as opaque. We have a solid base of players that know a lot about building, and can tell you accurately the optimal way to build a specific class. The only reason this didn't exist in the early days when we had 0 custom mechanics is that we didn't know any better.

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Re: Class design

Post by msheeler » Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:15 pm

I get the feeling some of this also comes from the need to eliminate balance breaking dips.

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Re: Class design

Post by Richrd » Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:19 pm

Oaks wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:31 pm
1
The way classes are changed and new classes are introduced doesn’t enable more variability and flexibility in character builds, it stifles it.
1.1
Changed and introduced classes all come with a brand flavour and specific playstyles and it's the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot to stray from those thetic playstyles.
1.2
Where in the past you could make "concepts" happen by piecing together a build from the base classes, tropes and concepts are instead introduced as fully fledged custom classes with minimal wiggle room away from the way they're designed to be played.
1.3
Heavy investment is incentivised for most changed and newly introduced classes. Classes you could previously dip into to give your concept build an additional edge or RP flavour today come with steep costs in terms of build viability. New classes come with this shoot-in-foot feature built in.
1.4
Changed and new classes are heavily defined by hard and high margins to hit; must-have capstone abilities that you can't miss out on. Scale-and-mix fades more and more into the background against a catalogue of (painstakingly designed) whole packages.
2
New and changed classes introduce specific mechanics that aren't engaging or thematic, but convoluted and removed from the setting / ruleset.
2.1
If you need an external spreadsheet to explain a new class you're introducing, it's probably oversized.
2.2
Bard.
Okay, sized the post down and I am just gonna go into each point.

1 : No, flexibility rather has gone up due to the constant introduction of new classes. You think that it's being stifled due to how pure class builds have simply been improved little by little over the years. I mean just take pure Fighter as an example. Used to be an absolute dog sh*t class when going for pure class builds. Now it's not as doodoo anymore, so hey :)

1.1 : You mean to tell me that new classes that get introduced aren't just boring copy-pastas of previously existing ones but actually introduce something fresh? And that going for a pure build on those new classes isn't inherently designed to be a punishing experience? Wow.

1.2 : Okay, first of all. Unless you are part of the meta slavery thinktank of Arelith then you and I both really got no real ground to stand on when it comes to building effective "concepts". And isn't the Evoker currently undergoing testing and did they not have to get adjusted because they were too good when cross-classed with one particular combo? I don't get this.

1.3 : What is this edge or RP flavour you speak of? People dipping into Paladin for free saves and powergaming the Radiant Heart ring while it was obnoxiously strong? Every single sneak character doing the obligatory Shadowdancer dip for the Hide in Plain Sight? Yes, those had lots of edge. But they were bland as hell, no taste at all.

1.4 : Again, pure classing gets rewarded. You say it like this is a new thing. Pure build casters were always strong, for example.

2 : My brother in Christ, this is Arelith. As much as I might get hated for bringing this up again, the setting itself is rather weak as hell. The players are supposed to make the server engaging, because the world itself won't do it for you. Or do you think it's immersive for some pre-epic adventurer so slay thousands of giants without any issues all just to gain some EXP? Or how every caster can just summon their personal Epic Dragon Knight at the click of a button, spontaneously and out of nowhere? Or how Amn is still somehow a threat while Arelith is packed full with demigod-level characters?

2.1 : Go to the NWN wikipedia. Click on any class. You will see spreadsheets. AB, saves, hitdie. It's all spreadsheets. This is a stat based game with continuous growth.

2.2 : Yes, bard.

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Re: Class design

Post by Archnon » Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:32 pm

Caster classes have always been about building deep and pure. That is their nature. That is also where we are seeing a lot of the recent class work, (paladin, cleric, warlock, wizard paths. True flame, etc.). If anything, the team has created more opportunities for dips by providing synergies to increase Cl (shaman and cleric) or adding +3 cl for dispels.

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Re: Class design

Post by Eyeliner » Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:42 pm

Deep always, pure is actually more recent. Druids never went pure until monolith shapes were introduced, clerics never until the (now gone) healer path, wizards never until wild mage and only then. Warlocks were pure then and now but they're also a homebrew. There's actually more options for pure-classing now than ever.

I think the only thing that raises an eyebrow with me is a tendency to go outside of 3/3.5 with new and original systems that feel more like an MMO or a different strategy game. I'm not saying that's a bad thing but... It's something.

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Re: Class design

Post by Irongron » Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:59 pm

Be it the dungeon layout, the monster difficulty or the class design, players should always be able to voice their concerns or observations here, and just as within the community, we have differing views in staff too.

My own view is that the team does some borderline genius work on these, and I'm amazed at how well they've managed to do across the board.

I have my own favourites of course, but to echo what a player above said; I'm happy with extremely complex classes, so long as there are some simpler options alongside them, and to pick up on one point made by the OP, I actually agree we have some narrow options among them; classes where there is really only a a few ways to do them 'properly'. Though that is as much due to our build savvy players as anything else.

Back in the day?

There were only about 4 optimal vanilla combinations, and as a result there was very little diversity at all. I adore where we are now, by comparison.

Also bard will never be complete until we finally add that mime path.

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Re: Class design

Post by Kuma » Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:34 am

Irongron wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:59 pm
Back in the day?

There were only about 4 optimal vanilla combinations, and as a result there was very little diversity at all. I adore where we are now, by comparison.
we must be thinking of different days

back in the day we hadn't "solved nwn" yet and were still discovering wild and wonderful weird things to break/exploit/combine

heck we hadn't even "solved" gear - 2/2/2/2skills and 1/1 attributes were far from standardised, and having [casting stat]/con on all gear basically made you a god

i unironically miss the sort of wild west "nobody knows what they're doing" era of NWN, when the fact that flame arrows were good for nuking spell mantles was a closely guarded secret passed from master to apprentice IC in the old arcane tower

in that regard, we've almost come full circle considering all the new content is overwrought and complicated, the only difference is it keeps changing


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Re: Class design

Post by Skibbles » Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:20 am

Kuma wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:34 am
i unironically miss the sort of wild west "nobody knows what they're doing" era of NWN
I just want to echo this for fun. I remember the day I found out that divine power gave an entire extra attack at full BAB if you specifically hamstringed the 4th attack out of your first 20 levels. I played for years, in another server, before learning that here.

Anyway, people are asking for examples, so mine would be Shaman. Shaman synergizes with 4 other heavily customized classes, and each synergy with each class is different - so to build a Shaman I must have a working knowledge of 5 classes and how they all interface with one another just to even begin thinking about a concept and how to fit it together.

This is just me trying to be on topic, however, so I will repeat that I still like the direction things are going and how Arelith devs have broken through a barrier that, for a long time, seemed dangerously inpenetrable insofar as looming stagnation in an outdated game was concerned.

So I'm still frustrated at times, but I'm okay with it.
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Re: Class design

Post by garrbear758 » Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:31 am

Kuma wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:34 am
Irongron wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:59 pm
Back in the day?

There were only about 4 optimal vanilla combinations, and as a result there was very little diversity at all. I adore where we are now, by comparison.
we must be thinking of different days

back in the day we hadn't "solved nwn" yet and were still discovering wild and wonderful weird things to break/exploit/combine

heck we hadn't even "solved" gear - 2/2/2/2skills and 1/1 attributes were far from standardised, and having [casting stat]/con on all gear basically made you a god

i unironically miss the sort of wild west "nobody knows what they're doing" era of NWN, when the fact that flame arrows were good for nuking spell mantles was a closely guarded secret passed from master to apprentice IC in the old arcane tower

in that regard, we've almost come full circle considering all the new content is overwrought and complicated, the only difference is it keeps changing


nerf bard
You're both right. In mostly vanilla nwn (assuming no hips or dev crit which the majority of "vanilla" servers still remove) there are 4 builds that stand out way above the rest. Cleric, wm, sorc, and bard rdd pally.

Learning mechanics is very server/community dependent. Before i played here, I played on a server that was heavier on the pvp side than arelith, and the good builds were figured out in the mid 2000s. Some servers still haven't figured them out, with or without drastic mechanical changes from vanilla. Even in the few years I've been here (my first pc was on skal), the community knowledge on mechanics has very noticeably increased.

The wild west was cool when you figured something out or were taught some secret knowledge, but it also had its issues. When mechanics are tightly guarded in communities, it can result in the few people in the know having drastically more influence than the rest, especially on servers with heavy death tolls. This isn't a good thing, and while the rise in community knowledge does take some of the fun of discovery away, I think the impact on rp is worth the loss of a sense of discovery in mechanics.

With that said, there are still plenty of things people don't know. Hell, I still learn weird mechanical quirks all the time and I was supposed to be the expert on that when I was on the team.

but seriously, nerf bard
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Re: Class design

Post by Xerah » Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:54 am

It seems really strange to complain about being railroaded when you can still do the same old unoptimized builds you could do before. The only difference is that the team knows to balance around optimization which is a massive, massive (I can’t state this enough), massive improvement for everyone instead of the select few that could figure things out.
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Re: Class design

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:49 am

The good old days that no one knew what they're doing and the game was more exciting(TM)

Also, nerf Bard.
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Re: Class design

Post by Arienette » Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:53 am

I have, at least for now, sort of “given up” on paying attention to new classes. Too many, and some of them are very firmly in the category of things I am not inclined to play. (Warlock and anything related to bard.)

However, I am glad that new and uninteresting-to-me stuff is coming out for the people who ARE into it!

My tune might change with the Vigilante and Invoker stuff. I think those classes will be of interest to me.

It does sort of annoy me that classes are sometimes made or revamped, and before they feel “done”, the development folks have moved on to something else new. I understand that it’s volunteer work driven by a persons interest and desires. But that’s really the the only thing that peeves me about class design on Arelith.

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Re: Class design

Post by Kalopsia » Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:05 am

Arienette wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:53 am
It does sort of annoy me that classes are sometimes made or revamped, and before they feel “done”, the development folks have moved on to something else new. I understand that it’s volunteer work driven by a persons interest and desires. But that’s really the the only thing that peeves me about class design on Arelith.
I'd be curious about an example for this. User experience is important to me, so if stuff feels unfinished, I don't mind investing an hour or two and improving things.

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Re: Class design

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:18 am

development is also just, you know, hard to do. class balance especially. sometimes the railroading is the result of trying to make things fair, and ensuring outlying abuses are minimized.

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Re: Class design

Post by magistrasa » Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:00 pm

Kalopsia wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:05 am
I'd be curious about an example for this.
I might have a different idea than the person who brought this up, but Shaman comes to mind for me due to the fact that they have no real "identity," so to speak. When it comes to roleplay tools, they don't have any special "thing" they do to set them apart from everyone else. Think of how Druids can -balance and wildshape, or Clerics can consecrate altars and turn undead. It was said in the past that the team would give them some sort of Spirit Guide companion mechanic, but that never happened. Now with rituals released, they don't even get access to pretty much any rituals - even though rituals are kind of a shaman's whole deal, narratively speaking. In lieu of a narrative identity, Shaman was given a bunch of different class synergies, which, if you ask me, really just dilutes its identity by tying it to six other identities and saying, "Yeah, you can be whatever you want, that's cool right?"

If there's any complaint I have about class design, it's that the roleplay angle doesn't always seem to be considered very well. The concept of a Favored Soul isn't reinforced by any special mechanic or roleplay tool that sets them apart that only they can access. FS is "Cleric but Sorcerer," with no RP cookies to go along with it, and it doesn't try to be anything more than that. The way the classes are designed don't seem to attempt to reinforce any narrative ideas about the world, although I'm sure many start that way. After the idea for the class gets rolling, I think then it all just gets bogged down in balance normalization which makes things feel samey after a certain point. The main offenders I'm thinking about with regards to "lack of distinct identity" are Swashbuckler, FS, Shaman, and Commoner/Specialist, with honorable mentions paid to the less-egregious Invisible Blade and Cavalier.

As a non-example of the issue I describe, Warlock, Hexblade, Spellsword, and Dirgesinger. I kinda don't like that Hexblade exists in the same room as Warlock and BG because they all have so much conceptual overlap that it feels like they step on each others' toes but they are very distinct and different from one another in implementation so it works out.

Side note, but I really do not want any more "paths" baked into class design. I mean, Cleric paths are cool I guess, but everyone else is on thin ice. After a certain point, just make a new class! Vigilante really seems like it should be two different classes and I hope that still ends up being what the team pursues. Invoker should be two different classes, and maybe it already is, I have no idea, I have been completely unable to follow the design discussion there. Wild Mage should probably be its own class at this point, though Shadow Mage could go either way. The way I see it, paths should just introduce minor tweaks to a class's design and function, without fully rewriting it. If a path completely changes the way you play the class, take it off the path system and flesh it out fully.

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Re: Class design

Post by Amnesy » Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:23 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:00 pm
Kalopsia wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:05 am
I'd be curious about an example for this.
Invoker should be two different classes, and maybe it already is, I have no idea, I have been completely unable to follow the design discussion there. Wild Mage should probably be its own class at this point, though Shadow Mage could go either way. The way I see it, paths should just introduce minor tweaks to a class's design and function, without fully rewriting it. If a path completely changes the way you play the class, take it off the path system and flesh it out fully.
Invoker is 2 different classes. While Elementalist can pick one of the elements to attune with, hemo is conceptually different and kept separate for my sanity on the ways to effectively split spellbooks outside of RP argument.

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Re: Class design

Post by magistrasa » Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:33 pm

Amnesy wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:23 pm
Invoker is 2 different classes. While Elementalist can pick one of the elements to attune with, hemo is conceptually different and kept separate for my sanity on the ways to effectively split spellbooks outside of RP argument.
Apologies for my ignorance, and thank you for clarifying! I actually haven't been able to get in game ever since it was announced and the fact that they are collectively referred to as "Invoker" got me all confused, haha.

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