Class design

[Svrtr]

Give them spells to select, let them consecrate altars, give them a language.

I have to say, it really just sounds like you would rather be a cleric with the RP of favored soul. Being chosen and having an innate access to divine spell casting isn't the same as studying dogma and the language involved as well, and FS already had far more spells that were useful than did cleric since it got so many domain spells.

I suppose if you really wanted you could dip cleric and get 2/3 CL and go from 29 with AD abj to 28 and also get domains, the altars, and the language

[Security_Blanket]

I have to say, it really just sounds like you would rather be a cleric with the RP of favored soul. Being chosen and having an innate access to divine spell casting isn't the same as studying dogma and the language involved as well, and FS already had far more spells that were useful than did cleric since it got so many domain spells.

I suppose if you really wanted you could dip cleric and get 2/3 CL and go from 29 with AD abj to 28 and also get domains, the altars, and the language

Is it worth playing a Favored Soul Diviner without access to any high level Divination Spells? Is it worth playing a Favored Soul Enchanter without access to any high level Enchanting Spells? By taking one spell you lose access to another, what is the issue here? The argument always circles back to "play a cleric" as though that's any more constructive than what I'm suggesting. A Warlock and a Blackguard are given access to a language for free, innately, like data was just downloaded into their brain, but this is impossible for a Favored Soul? Maybe I'm having trouble understanding just what it is you guys think a Favored Soul is suppose to be. They're connected to their God, but only within very specific limits. Is your God big on dominating minds, where's the incentive to go Favored Soul?

What I ultimately want for Favored Soul is options, did you bother to look at the spell selection for Favored Soul? From level 7 on up you have very little to choose from and by choosing one spell (that is almost definitely available to Clerics through domains) you lose access to another spell, so where is the issue?

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Maybe if you're trying to do "cartoon super villain" evil. I've played plenty of surface evil characters and haven't had this issue. I also get bored once I hit level 30, so I generally don't hang around that long afterwards. The "start of game at 30" is something that doesn't resonate with me all (and also why the super fast leveling that we have now kills some enjoyment)

I hate that argument because it's used to killbash overtly evil off the surface, which is boring. I want to see more open evil around. I am sick of surface vs Andunor conflict. In that other thread people are complaining about the unified Andunor. Well it's the same on the surface, everyone wants to unite. Unity SUCKS. Unity is BORING. I want to see cartoon evil exist on the surface. In fact, I want to see cartoon evil exist on the surface and hate Andunor. That was something that was really cool about Tyros Iaret's Banites. They hated Andunor and would fight against them. By polarizing everything and shrugging and saying "they were cartoon evil, killing them is ok," it makes it much harder for these stories to take place. Because cartoon evil has nowhere to RP but Andunor, unless a bunch of people make a group concept and set out to RP somewhere on the surface.

[Xerah]

Maybe if you're trying to do "cartoon super villain" evil. I've played plenty of surface evil characters and haven't had this issue. I also get bored once I hit level 30, so I generally don't hang around that long afterwards. The "start of game at 30" is something that doesn't resonate with me all (and also why the super fast leveling that we have now kills some enjoyment)

I hate that argument because it's used to killbash overtly evil off the surface, which is boring. I want to see more open evil around. I am sick of surface vs Andunor conflict. In that other thread people are complaining about the unified Andunor. Well it's the same on the surface, everyone wants to unite. Unity SUCKS. Unity is BORING. I want to see cartoon evil exist on the surface. In fact, I want to see cartoon evil exist on the surface and hate Andunor. That was something that was really cool about Tyros Iaret's Banites. They hated Andunor and would fight against them. By polarizing everything and shrugging and saying "they were cartoon evil, killing them is ok," it makes it much harder for these stories to take place. Because cartoon evil has nowhere to RP but Andunor, unless a bunch of people make a group concept and set out to RP somewhere on the surface.

I didn't make a comment on it being okay or not; no one ever forgets anything or wants to give up an inch so these things always lead to boring conflict.

But you can easily play a selfish style evil character without getting pvped all the time.

[Svrtr]

I have to say, it really just sounds like you would rather be a cleric with the RP of favored soul. Being chosen and having an innate access to divine spell casting isn't the same as studying dogma and the language involved as well, and FS already had far more spells that were useful than did cleric since it got so many domain spells.

I suppose if you really wanted you could dip cleric and get 2/3 CL and go from 29 with AD abj to 28 and also get domains, the altars, and the language

Is it worth playing a Favored Soul Diviner without access to any high level Divination Spells? Is it worth playing a Favored Soul Enchanter without access to any high level Enchanting Spells? By taking one spell you lose access to another, what is the issue here? The argument always circles back to "play a cleric" as though that's any more constructive than what I'm suggesting. A Warlock and a Blackguard are given access to a language for free, innately, like data was just downloaded into their brain, but this is impossible for a Favored Soul? Maybe I'm having trouble understanding just what it is you guys think a Favored Soul is suppose to be. They're connected to their God, but only within very specific limits. Is your God big on dominating minds, where's the incentive to go Favored Soul?

What I ultimately want for Favored Soul is options, did you bother to look at the spell selection for Favored Soul? From level 7 on up you have very little to choose from and by choosing one spell (that is almost definitely available to Clerics through domains) you lose access to another spell, so where is the issue?

I mean, yes. FS is to cleric what sorcerer is to wizard, and by design. It could probably do with like dominate monster or like MAYBE premonition, but both are spells cleric also doesn't get save for only 2 differing domains.

It isn't meant to tailor to gods of various domains like clerics is. Its strength is its spontaneous casting and versatility. Not to mention the whole "One can be a favored soul of a god that is different to the one they worship and serve, knowingly and unknowingly".

Given the state of the class, but its long term domination compared to cleric until cleric got its domain rework and its paths which themselve have both gains and losses such as the entire inability to have summons in the case of warpriest, its become a case of general versatility and spontaneous casting versus focused skill set. Dipping cleric for these things only costs 1 CL but can gain a fair bit, which seems like a fair compromise

[Richrd]

The truest of trues, so true even that I suspect you of having cast Truesight IRL.

For real though, if you want to play a surface villain on Arelith your RP won't start before level 30. Otherwise you are just asking for being hounded across the collective surface community while leveling.

Maybe if you're trying to do "cartoon super villain" evil. I've played plenty of surface evil characters and haven't had this issue. I also get bored once I hit level 30, so I generally don't hang around that long afterwards. The "start of game at 30" is something that doesn't resonate with me all (and also why the super fast leveling that we have now kills some enjoyment)

I've seen simple thieves be basically ousted from surface-society. Let's just agree on how our personal views on the matter don't line up.

[Lacki]

Maybe if you're trying to do "cartoon super villain" evil. I've played plenty of surface evil characters and haven't had this issue. I also get bored once I hit level 30, so I generally don't hang around that long afterwards. The "start of game at 30" is something that doesn't resonate with me all (and also why the super fast leveling that we have now kills some enjoyment)

I hate that argument because it's used to killbash overtly evil off the surface, which is boring. I want to see more open evil around. I am sick of surface vs Andunor conflict. In that other thread people are complaining about the unified Andunor. Well it's the same on the surface, everyone wants to unite. Unity SUCKS. Unity is BORING. I want to see cartoon evil exist on the surface. In fact, I want to see cartoon evil exist on the surface and hate Andunor. That was something that was really cool about Tyros Iaret's Banites. They hated Andunor and would fight against them. By polarizing everything and shrugging and saying "they were cartoon evil, killing them is ok," it makes it much harder for these stories to take place. Because cartoon evil has nowhere to RP but Andunor, unless a bunch of people make a group concept and set out to RP somewhere on the surface.

I'm a new player playing a surface Blackguard and so far it's been very fun. At the same time, though, this thought lingers in the back of my mind. As soon as someone figures out what I am - whether by seeing me clearing a dungeon with a fiend/undead or spotting my Corrupt Weapon (with their character knowing IC what that is) or getting me to wear an Evil-only item or anything like that - I'm outed, and everyone will know who I am even if I slay the person who found me out. Even if the interaction and the fallout of it sounds fun, and the thrill of potentially being caught IS fun, it's the consequences AFTERWARD that I don't like.

I don't *want* to go to Andunor! I want to play on the surface and be a horrid gremlin of a villain, but how are you meant to do that if you can just be smote instantly? I guess you could take the death and be free for 24 hours from that person/group, at the very least, but as soon as you're exiled it seems that you're screwed out of getting just about any crafting done or general services unless you go to Andunor, which defeats the point of being a surface villain! That's not even mentioning the fact that you'll be made a laughingstock from all your deaths when you actually want to be feared or - at least - someone who people are cautious around!

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I'm a new player playing a surface Blackguard and so far it's been very fun. At the same time, though, this thought lingers in the back of my mind. As soon as someone figures out what I am - whether by seeing me clearing a dungeon with a fiend/undead or spotting my Corrupt Weapon (with their character knowing IC what that is) or getting me to wear an Evil-only item or anything like that - I'm outed, and everyone will know who I am even if I slay the person who found me out. Even if the interaction and the fallout of it sounds fun, and the thrill of potentially being caught IS fun, it's the consequences AFTERWARD that I don't like.

I don't *want* to go to Andunor! I want to play on the surface and be a horrid gremlin of a villain, but how are you meant to do that if you can just be smote instantly? I guess you could take the death and be free for 24 hours from that person/group, at the very least, but as soon as you're exiled it seems that you're screwed out of getting just about any crafting done or general services unless you go to Andunor, which defeats the point of being a surface villain! That's not even mentioning the fact that you'll be made a laughingstock from all your deaths when you actually want to be feared or - at least - someone who people are cautious around!

As long as you don't animate you can come and hang out in Guldorand. As long as you don't break any laws in the city you should be fine.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The truest of trues, so true even that I suspect you of having cast Truesight IRL.

For real though, if you want to play a surface villain on Arelith your RP won't start before level 30. Otherwise you are just asking for being hounded across the collective surface community while leveling.

Maybe if you're trying to do "cartoon super villain" evil. I've played plenty of surface evil characters and haven't had this issue. I also get bored once I hit level 30, so I generally don't hang around that long afterwards. The "start of game at 30" is something that doesn't resonate with me all (and also why the super fast leveling that we have now kills some enjoyment)

I think cartoon supervillains are great for the game. You can disagree, but if you go across any community from the past or present on nwn, the most memorable characters are always the cartoon supervillains. I will admit there is a thin line between a well-played cartoon supervillain and silliness, but honestly that's what makes a player who can play one right such a treasure for any server. Subtle evil has its place as well, and when done right can be as good as any cartoon supervillain, but if it's just being greedy and snickering about your ebolness in private the character is not going to be very memorable in the long run. Eventually you need your plans and machinations to be revealed to the masses for your legacy, preferably in a blaze of glory.

Cartoon Supervillains should also expect to be hunted relentlessly. That's kind of the point after all, just like you are striving to be the biggest baddie of all the baddies, there is a flip side of that coin where folks are playing the biggest goodies of all goodies. But I think, for reasons I have stated above and in numerous posts around these forums, the rules fail the Cartoon Supervillain in this regard. And I think that's why no one really plays them anymore, which is one of the most depressing aspects of Arelith.

Also, when people are using the term "Cartoon Supervillain" over and over again to describe big bad scary evils, you can say you coined that. Just remember which post used it over and over again to kickstart it

[Xerah]

I really don't know what who coined the term has anything to do with anything; the only reason it was used was to point out a type that will get hunted relentlessly vs the type that won't. I didn't give any judgment on its existence either.

At any rate, this thread has gone wildly off topic. If you have class feedback that is legitimate, feel free to continue. If you're curious what legitimate is review posts by Scurvy (even if he tactfully puts in a little dev jab here and there), "boring", "lacking direction", and "unfinished" is not helpful feedback.

If you want talk evil types, then start a new thread.

[Security_Blanket]

"boring", "lacking direction", and "unfinished" is not helpful feedback.

I'd strongly disagree, personally, suggestions were thrown in alongside these opinions but were all ignored. If someone feels there is nothing exciting about a class and other classes looks shiny and bright, then I would call the less attractive class kind of boring. Sorry if you don't find that helpful but I've given suggestions to Favored Souls that have received no real answer as to why they cannot be implemented, beyond the same dry answer of "play a cleric." I don't think this approach is any more helpful or constructive and just keeps ignoring the points being made. Give Favored Souls spells! Clerics get not just Domains but through those Domains access to spells, spells that help them to flesh out their character as a follower of their particular God, so why is it an issue to give Favored Souls spells!?

I don't mean to take over the thread with that one issue, just saying "It sucks" and then leaving, sure that's not at all helpful. I think "boring" is a more apt description of the class in general, as someone who has played it extensively for whatever that may be worth. Don't focus on the "boring" and focus on the suggestions, because they're there too.

[garrbear758]

"boring", "lacking direction", and "unfinished" is not helpful feedback.

I'd strongly disagree, personally, suggestions were thrown in alongside these opinions but were all ignored. If someone feels there is nothing exciting about a class and other classes looks shiny and bright, then I would call the less attractive class kind of boring. Sorry if you don't find that helpful but I've given suggestions to Favored Souls that have received no real answer as to why they cannot be implemented, beyond the same dry answer of "play a cleric." I don't think this approach is any more helpful or constructive and just keeps ignoring the points being made. Give Favored Souls spells! Clerics get not just Domains but through those Domains access to spells, spells that help them to flesh out their character as a follower of their particular God, so why is it an issue to give Favored Souls spells!?

I don't mean to take over the thread with that one issue, just saying "It sucks" and then leaving, sure that's not at all helpful. I think "boring" is a more apt description of the class in general, as someone who has played it extensively for whatever that may be worth. Don't focus on the "boring" and focus on the suggestions, because they're there too.

They're being ignored because its beating a dead horse. Favored soul is not intended to get a language or alter consecrations and these have come up repeatedly. As the people who made the class, Aniel and I have been adamently against them getting either from the start. It goes against the rp niche they fill, and it just makes them "cleric but spontaneous," when the class is intended to be much more than that and very different from cleric. If you want consecration on a FS, there's a gift for that. If you want a language, theres an award for that. You can take both, but I am very against giving the class either by default.

"Give spells" is also not feedback. What spells? Why? They already get a lot of spells clerics require domains for. Give spells is meaningless without more context.

[Security_Blanket]

"Give spells" is also not feedback. What spells? Why? They already get a lot of spells clerics require domains for. Give spells is meaningless without more context.

I suggested Dominate Monster, Power Word Kill, I suggested giving them incentive to play a spell focus beyond Evocation, Transmutation, Conjuration, or Necromancy. I'm not going in-depth and compiling a list of all the spells that should be added but focusing on broad strokes. If I go into anymore detail than that then I definitely would be beating a dead horse as I've already explained myself.

[Ork]

Adding spells hardly differentiate FS from cleric and may even break the class since FS is the superior class for its flexibility.

[magistrasa]

As the people who made the class, Aniel and I have been adamently against them getting either from the start. It goes against the rp niche they fill, and it just makes them "cleric but spontaneous," when the class is intended to be much more than that and very different from cleric. If you want consecration on a FS, there's a gift for that. If you want a language, theres an award for that. You can take both, but I am very against giving the class either by default.

I can see where you're coming from, with regards to your reluctance to give FS the exact same RP goodies as Cleric. You're right, that would make them too samey, and I think that would be a pretty lazy and underwhelming way to give FS something fun. Even so, I disagree with the idea that they are fulfilling their niche as-is. The issue I see with FS - and, again, this is not an issue with just FS, more that FS is emblematic of the reoccurring issue throughout several classes - is that the class gets nothing comparable to really hammer in what kind of roleplay they're intended to pursue.

For comparison sake, I'm just going to pick out three base classes and prestige classes at random and go into how their mechanics supplement their identities.
[Disclaimer: This is not an attempt to say "You Must Roleplay This Class In This Way," this is just a generalization about the archetypal identity each listed class is associated with.]

----------------------------------------------------

- Wizard -
Roleplay Identity: The intelligent, educated arcanist; a versatile problem-solver who approaches the world with the meticulous mind of a mathematician, perfectly suited to unravel the mysteries of the universe through their keen mind and many magical tools at their disposal.
Supplementing Mechanics: Oodles and oodles of bonus feats allow the Wizard to claim and demonstrate their expertise in up to five of the eight schools of magic; Specializations further emphasize the ability to portray expertise within a specific field; being Intelligence-based, the Wizard will naturally be able to learn many languages and pick up many skills; infini-casting through GSF demonstrates the practical application of their knowledge limitlessly and effortlessly; there are certain spells and rituals that only a Wizard can cast.

- Fighter -
Roleplay Identity: The hardened, professional battlemaster; a veteran to combat and master of martial technique, whose discipline and training affords them the ability to adapt to any danger and survive any battle. Whether a footsoldier, a general, or a mercenary, the Fighter has honed their body and mind alike to the art of war, approaching combat with a razor-sharp efficiency.
Supplementing Mechanics: Weapon Specialization is a feat exclusively granted to Fighters, alongside many bonus feats that can be taken to supplement combat skill; Second Wind creates the sense of a sustainable, efficient, self-sufficient fighting machine

- Monk -
Roleplay Identity: The warrior-poet and philosopher-knight; he who pursues both spiritual and physical perfection in tandem, with the understanding that the spiritual and physical are intrinsically linked. Wielding his very soul as a weapon and shield alike, the Monk eschews traditional forms of magic and instead practices strange mystic arts to achieve supernatural feats.
Supplementing Mechanics: Open up the Monk level progression table and you'll see a whole slew of unique feats and abilities that are earned at nearly every level of play, each one themed around the concept of spiritual and physical enlightenment; at higher levels, the Monk even gets a unique marker of their transcendental nature via their (in)famous eyeglow effect.

- Assassin -
Roleplay Identity: The lethal murderer that strikes from the shadows; whether fulfilling the wicked whim of some murderous ideology, or merely a coin-hungry killer that plies his bloody trade for little more than greed, the Assassin is a remorseless butcher and a dangerous threat whose victims will pay any price to avoid his professional attention.
Supplementing Mechanics: Let's start with the obvious, which is the entirety of the Assassin's Guild; the Assassinate ability drives home the image of a studious serial murderer who stalks his prey before taking out the target; Death Attack's ability to paralyze enemies caught unawares; poison synergy reinforcing the idea of a prepared and committed killer; while only able to access a small number of spells, the tailored nature of the spell list and the way those spells evolve with level investment add a unique aspect to their spellcasting.

- Arcane Archer -
Roleplay Identity: A warrior trained in mystic tradition known only to the elves; using magic to supplement ranged warfare, the Arcane Archer blends spellcraft with martial practice, firing enchanted arrows to slay their enemies with lethal efficiency. Whether trained in the arcane arts or attuned to nature's blessings, the Arcane Archer uses their power to become a deadly master of the bow and arrow.
Supplementing Mechanics: Racial restriction to elves suggests a narrative to be explored; enchanted arrow abilities unique to the class; innate ammo creation; the self-evident nature of the awesome power of a +10 arrow.

- Divine Champion -
Roleplay Identity: A knight committed to the service of a god; whether oathsworn like a paladin or propelled to their duty by some deep, unspoken conviction, the Divine Champion seeks with every action to make their gods' will manifest in the world - and in so doing, has earned the favor and attention of their chosen deity.
Supplementing Mechanics: Divine Wrath, an ability unique to the Divine Champion; their Paladin-adjacent nature is expressed through abilities such as Smite & Lay on Hands.

----------------------------------------------------

What I hope this little writeup demonstrates is that every class has their "thing" that makes them feel special and unique. Some of them do it better than others - for example, I'd say that AA & DC still leave something to be desired in terms of unique flair and I would be thrilled to see them get something else that clearly sets them apart from other similar classes. Clearly, though, they all have their own roleplay niche, and that niche is further solidified by some ability that is exclusive to the class in question. And that's why the idea that FS is somehow narratively empowered by a lack of "special something" doesn't sit right with me. Surely there must be something special and new that the class can be granted to supplement its niche. There has to be some unique way that it can express its unique role in the universe, right? I'm not going to pretend I know exactly what that "special something" could or should look like, though it's something I'd certainly love to brainstorm - and I hope the team feels empowered to pursue the idea! This all of course extends to classes beyond Favored Soul, but, again, I would say FS is the most egregious offender on the list.

[garrbear758]

Lots of good things

First of all, this is very good feedback so thank you for writing it out. I disagree with you on favored soul though. Their unique mechanics are more subtle, but they give them a very unique roleplay niche which no other class can fit into.

- Favored Soul -
Roleplay Identity: A person who is chosen by a god to further their gods goals on arelith, regardless of the persons personal morals or goals. A favored soul can be a knowing or unknowing vessel of their deities power, such as a favored soul of loviatar who is a faithful worshipper of ilmater, inadvertently extending peoples pain and suffering in their attempts to heal them. Or a worshipper of helm devoted to protecting others, but is favored by bane, and their efforts to protect lead to them supporting aggressive authoritarian laws.
Supplementing Mechanics: Literally the ONLY divine class that doesn't have alignment restrictions, is not required to know where their powers come from, and can get their powers from a different deity than the one they worship. Also the only class that gets energy resistance for free.

And I'm not saying you have to play a FS this way, but this is their unique niche and supporting mechanics. You could also take gift of devotion and play them as a zealot, or a heretic, or a million other things, but I think they really stand out from every other divine class in a unique way due to the lack of alignment restrictions / worship / knowledge requirements

[magistrasa]

- Favored Soul -
Roleplay Identity: A person who is chosen by a god to further their gods goals on arelith, regardless of the persons personal morals or goals. A favored soul can be a knowing or unknowing vessel of their deities power, such as a favored soul of loviatar who is a faithful worshipper of ilmater, inadvertently extending peoples pain and suffering in their attempts to heal them. Or a worshipper of helm devoted to protecting others, but is favored by bane, and their efforts to protect lead to them supporting aggressive authoritarian laws.
Supplementing Mechanics: Literally the ONLY divine class that doesn't have alignment restrictions, is not required to know where their powers come from, and can get their powers from a different deity than the one they worship. Also the only class that gets energy resistance for free.

It sounds more like you're saying the class's theme is being supported by an absence of mechanics - which, again, doesn't really sit right with me. Rather than being defined by what it is, you're defining it by what it's not.

From how you talk about it, it sounds like FS's appeal is all in its interpretive freedom. To me, that's its greatest downfall - because, personally, one of the most appealing aspects of Arelith is the old adage, "What You See Is What You Get." The characters and stories you're describing all sound exceptionally compelling in a novel, but I can imagine very few ways to really demonstrate and explore those narratives in-game. Whatever stories there might be must exist solely within the players' theater of the mind. Take the Ilmateri chosen by Loviatar, for instance. What exactly would you do, in game, for other people to understand that internal dynamic? I guess you'd have to choose whether you select Ilmater or Loviatar as your deity, but that's only really going to affect piety gain. The spells you select could be a tip-off, but that's only circumstantially relevant. And due to the nature of the server, you will never truly have an opportunity to confront a divine power about "the essence of your being" or what have you. It's all really in the hands of the player to portray that sort of narrative, which... Well, isn't that the case with everyone?

Talking about this does give me the beginning of an idea, though!

You know how Clerics are required to be within a step of their deity's alignment, and Favored Souls are not? Well, what if there was some kind of bonus or penalty given to Favored Souls depending on how many steps they are from their chosen deity's alignment?

What if at first level, FS had a special feat that let them select the alignment of their patron deity. Maybe it works similar to domains, wherein the selected alignment opens up a unique ability or spell list. It doesn't lock the FS to said alignment, or force them to choose any particular deity to worship, but it's just some sort of marker to show the nature of the god that has chosen them. Then, maybe the further away from your patron's alignment you are, the more piety certain spells will cost. Maybe evil deities empower certain damage types while good deities empower others! Maybe paladins will always detect an evil from you when you've been chosen by an evil deity, no matter what alignment you are.

Things like that are what I think empower interesting narrative exploration. But maybe that's all just down to personal preference. Speaking towards my own experiences, two of my favorite character performances on the server came from incredibly well-crafted Favored Souls (shout out to my boys Itzal and Remisin, #DarkMoon4Lyfe), so I don't feel good about calling the class boring when it so clearly can form the foundation for some fantastic storytelling. But I do think it could do a lot more in terms of offering tools for people to supplement their narratives.

[Security_Blanket]

- Favored Soul -
Roleplay Identity: A person who is chosen by a god to further their gods goals on arelith, regardless of the persons personal morals or goals. A favored soul can be a knowing or unknowing vessel of their deities power, such as a favored soul of loviatar who is a faithful worshipper of ilmater, inadvertently extending peoples pain and suffering in their attempts to heal them. Or a worshipper of helm devoted to protecting others, but is favored by bane, and their efforts to protect lead to them supporting aggressive authoritarian laws.
Supplementing Mechanics: Literally the ONLY divine class that doesn't have alignment restrictions, is not required to know where their powers come from, and can get their powers from a different deity than the one they worship. Also the only class that gets energy resistance for free.

And I'm not saying you have to play a FS this way, but this is their unique niche and supporting mechanics. You could also take gift of devotion and play them as a zealot, or a heretic, or a million other things, but I think they really stand out from every other divine class in a unique way due to the lack of alignment restrictions / worship / knowledge requirements

We could have the same conversation about how unique it is to receive your powers through a pact with some alien entity that is likely using you as an agent on this plane, and all the different ways that may have come about. Favored Soul's RP leans a little in the Shaman's direction as you can RP it in similar manner. I'm not trying to dump on Favored Soul, I loved the RP and that's why I chose the class, not for the mechanics. Maybe part of the issue with Favored Soul is the current deity system doesn't support things like a God's favored weapon, can you even choose Bane as a deity while being Lawful Good and RPing that you worship Torm?

They don't get Lay on Hands, or Turn Undead, but maybe they can get choice between 3 different 1 use on a cool down abilities that they can choose at a certain level, as a way of showing the true nature of the source of their power.

[garrbear758]

- Favored Soul -
Roleplay Identity: A person who is chosen by a god to further their gods goals on arelith, regardless of the persons personal morals or goals. A favored soul can be a knowing or unknowing vessel of their deities power, such as a favored soul of loviatar who is a faithful worshipper of ilmater, inadvertently extending peoples pain and suffering in their attempts to heal them. Or a worshipper of helm devoted to protecting others, but is favored by bane, and their efforts to protect lead to them supporting aggressive authoritarian laws.
Supplementing Mechanics: Literally the ONLY divine class that doesn't have alignment restrictions, is not required to know where their powers come from, and can get their powers from a different deity than the one they worship. Also the only class that gets energy resistance for free.

It sounds more like you're saying the class's theme is being supported by an absence of mechanics - which, again, doesn't really sit right with me. Rather than being defined by what it is, you're defining it by what it's not.

From how you talk about it, it sounds like FS's appeal is all in its interpretive freedom. To me, that's its greatest downfall - because, personally, one of the most appealing aspects of Arelith is the old adage, "What You See Is What You Get." The characters and stories you're describing all sound exceptionally compelling in a novel, but I can imagine very few ways to really demonstrate and explore those narratives in-game. Whatever stories there might be must exist solely within the players' theater of the mind. Take the Ilmateri chosen by Loviatar, for instance. What exactly would you do, in game, for other people to understand that internal dynamic? I guess you'd have to choose whether you select Ilmater or Loviatar as your deity, but that's only really going to affect piety gain. The spells you select could be a tip-off, but that's only circumstantially relevant. And due to the nature of the server, you will never truly have an opportunity to confront a divine power about "the essence of your being" or what have you. It's all really in the hands of the player to portray that sort of narrative, which... Well, isn't that the case with everyone?

Talking about this does give me the beginning of an idea, though!

You know how Clerics are required to be within a step of their deity's alignment, and Favored Souls are not? Well, what if there was some kind of bonus or penalty given to Favored Souls depending on how many steps they are from their chosen deity's alignment?

What if at first level, FS had a special feat that let them select the alignment of their patron deity. Maybe it works similar to domains, wherein the selected alignment opens up a unique ability or spell list. It doesn't lock the FS to said alignment, or force them to choose any particular deity to worship, but it's just some sort of marker to show the nature of the god that has chosen them. Then, maybe the further away from your patron's alignment you are, the more piety certain spells will cost. Maybe evil deities empower certain damage types while good deities empower others! Maybe paladins will always detect an evil from you when you've been chosen by an evil deity, no matter what alignment you are.

Things like that are what I think empower interesting narrative exploration. But maybe that's all just down to personal preference. Speaking towards my own experiences, two of my favorite character performances on the server came from incredibly well-crafted Favored Souls (shout out to my boys Itzal and Remisin, #DarkMoon4Lyfe), so I don't feel good about calling the class boring when it so clearly can form the foundation for some fantastic storytelling. But I do think it could do a lot more in terms of offering tools for people to supplement their narratives.

I'm not on the team anymore so I can't do anything about it, but I do actually really like this idea.

[Ork]

I like opportunities for classes to "tell" on themselves. A mechanic feature that exposes them to uncomfortable truths. Warlocks have the eyes and eldritch blast, blackguards have their summons, hexblade had hex, paladin has lay on hands, etc.

I think you've got a really good idea, magistrasa. It would be cool to see something built from that concept.

[Paint]

I like how this discussion about class design devolved into a discussion about favored souls, but since I cannot shut up, all I can say about FvS is that I've had two of them and both of them were Battle FSes and they didn't play out remotely the same.

I want more cookies for FvS, but I don't even know what those cookies would be. FvS is strong. Cleric is 100% stronger right now. You can make far more effective builds with Cleric, and if you disagree with that, you haven't been paying attention. But FvS offers an incredible amount of flexibility both in roleplay and mechanics that's hard to deny.

Might be a bit of a hot take but the energy resistance really isn't appealing at all, doesn't make sense thematically for the favored souls of various gods, and while it is a holdover from the actual class in PnP, I would 100% trade it away in a heartbeat for something more personal for various types of FvS builds.

Finally, I'm fine with the design of the new classes as of late. They're balanced very well and they make sense. The only real frustration I have is I feel like some classes and PrCs that are in really bad spots could probably use more love before new classes are introduced. I could list them off if you like, but you probably already know which ones I'm talking about. It does rub me the wrong way when the niche I'm trying to fill with a certain class is usurped by a new class and my choice with my current character is to play a subpar version of the thing they're trying to be or roll them and make a new character, abandoning all of the roleplay I've built up on this, the server for roleplaying and PVP, where your character's stats and effectiveness inarguably matter if you want to engage in certain types of roleplay. But I'm the person who typically plays really bad builds and complains about them so take everything I say with a Kenji-grade grain of salt.

[fading]

I believe Favored Souls would greatly benefit by having a relatively simple unique ability. I found some of the suggestions either too convoluted, or too close to cleric's domain.

Question is, why not take inspiration from 3.5? We have the energy resistance from there, but we never brought the (arguably) most iconic class feature, the wings. Before you say what I know you want to say, I'm not arguing for permanent wings, that would absolutely suck for many reasons that I'm sure we're all aware of. Rather, it would be a short duration ability, a kind of minor "Divine Avatar", that would temporarily give people wings (different depending on fs deity) and a buff of some kind, it doesn't have to be game changing, just good enough that people are enticed to use the ability (chance to refund spells? I dunno).

[Flower Power]

The truest of trues, so true even that I suspect you of having cast Truesight IRL.

For real though, if you want to play a surface villain on Arelith your RP won't start before level 30. Otherwise you are just asking for being hounded across the collective surface community while leveling.

Maybe if you're trying to do "cartoon super villain" evil. I've played plenty of surface evil characters and haven't had this issue. I also get bored once I hit level 30, so I generally don't hang around that long afterwards. The "start of game at 30" is something that doesn't resonate with me all (and also why the super fast leveling that we have now kills some enjoyment)

I've seen simple thieves be basically ousted from surface-society. Let's just agree on how our personal views on the matter don't line up.

Everyone knows theft is worse than murder, and quarterbreakers should be ostracized.

If you want to get the party to go on a quest, any quest, you don't kill off an NPC that matters to them.

You steal their wagon.

(But no, really, if someone kills me - I can just respawn. It's unfortunate, it's frustrating, but I can smile and nod and get on with my day; if someone steals my stuff, I not only have next to no chance to react to it or interact with it in any meaningful capacity, but that stuff is gone.

Theft and quarterbreaking are the only forms of noninteractive hostile action allowed on Arelith and it's really, really weird.)

[Kenji]

I think there's a lot of reason to be a little disappointed that so many of the new classes feel packaged as "pure or go home" or "26-27+ tumble dip or go home". To me, it's taken a lot of the joy out of building for Arelith. It's been a while since a new mechanical concept really interested me, and I will probably never play some of the new classes for that reason.

I also think it's fair to point out that introducing a bunch of classes with formulae tucked into spreadsheets on them is off-putting.

At the same time, I can sympathize with the decision to put major abilities at 26 or 28 in a class progression, and to make these abilities so strong that, as Oaks said, you shoot yourself in the foot for not taking them. Part of this is that there are dips (one at 3 levels, one at 5) which need to be taken into account for every class. I won't get into more details here, but this tends to constrain the ability to just let a class be like ranger or barbarian, neither of which worry about a "capstone" feat, and instead offer a solid range of options at basically any concentration between 21 and 30. It's always easier to design a class that can't be multiclassed, because you don't need to worry about these complications. Our releases that have been multiclassable, like invisible blade, cavalier, and loremaster have needed 2, 3, and 2 major overhauls respectively before they started looking reasonable.

This a late response, but it might be good to address the design difference between classes in terms of simplicity or complexity for building purposes.

A while ago (August of 2022), the team and I went through all the classes on Arelith and separated them based on their "difficulty". The difficulty here is mainly based on building and mechanical complexity.

Initially, the idea was to provide some kind of color code on the wiki or note on the in-game client for character creation to indicate the difficulty. The feature was later discarded but the exercise and the rudimentary (somewhat) statistical analysis that came with it provided insight into the design process.

Of course, the list is relatively subjective and every player may have a "difficulty tier" list of their own that differs from the following.

NOTE: This is not implemented nor is it planned to be, but an exercise to see where we were in terms of class design!
To help Arelith's players who aren't as mechanically versed decide on which class they would play for their concept without the process being intrusive to the experience, we will introduce two changes to existing and future class Names and descriptions:

1. Class names will be color-coded based on their "Difficulty," and asterisks will be appended at the end to note their "Complexity."

2. Class descriptions will have a small, one-line explanation of what makes the class difficult and/or complex, no more, so it does not distract the overall function of the class.

We separate our mechanics into two categories because, to grossly simplify, there are three aspects of mechanics:
Difficulty is determined by gameplay (action economy, player skill, active ability/feat/spell usage, combination, etc.)
Complexity is determined by the building process (Character ability scores, racial adjustments, multiclass, feats, class prerequisites, etc.)
Existing Meta depends on player knowledge and experience in the server that will be touched upon here.

Color-coding and asterisk counts will quickly help players identify the above two (difficulty and complexity) and their respective differences.

We assign these color codes and asterisk counts based on the assumption that most of these will be built into dedicated classes rather than 3-level dips. (Classes such as Weapon Master, Harper/Zhent, Knight, Specialist, and Invisible Blade notwithstanding)

1. Complexity Asterisk Counts (This should be selectively applied to classes)
*: This class has prerequisites that make it complicated to build into
**: This class is complicated to optimize/build even if it may be easy to meet the prerequisite
***: This class is both complicated to build into and to customize

2. Difficulty Color-Codes (This should apply to all classes)
Easy: This class is straightforward to play without nuanced mechanics
This is the category where

• Easy Classes
  Arcane Archer
  Barbarian
  Cavalier
  Commoner
  Divine Champion
  Fighter
  Invisible Blade
  Loremaster**
  Monk**
  Specialist
  Weapon Master*

Normal: This class may take some effort to learn and play
This is the category where most of the classes should fall and the most abundant

• Normal Classes
  Bard**
  Blackguard
  Cleric**
  Dirgesinger
  Dragon Disciple**
  Druid
  Earthkin Defender
  Elementalist
  Favored Soul**
  Hemomancer
  Hexblade
  Paladin**
  Pale Master
  Ranger
  Rogue**
  Shaman**
  Sorcerer
  Spellsword
  Warlock**
  Wizard

Hard: This class has nuanced mechanics and will be hard to master
This should be the rarest category

• Hard Classes
  Assassin
  Harper Classes***
  Knight
  Shadowdancer
  Shifter???
  Swashbuckler
  Vigilante**
  Zhentarim Classes***

Rogue is probably one of the few outliers where it may be an easy class to get into but a very hard class to master as it has a higher player skill ceiling compared to other classes.

To address Scurvy Cur's comment (I know it's possible that it is no longer his sentiment, but certainly he's not the only one to feel this way):
It's okay to have some classes that are easier to build into and require less thought on both the building and the mechanical know-how. Not every class needs to have multiclass in mind.

It is perhaps a good idea to have some easier classes to build into so more time, thoughts, and effort from the players can be put into roleplay rather than being mechanically viable for Arelith's content.

The difficulty curve as we observe it is the usual bell curve distribution. I believe that is an indication of where we are in terms of both simple and complex classes: a healthy distribution.

[God_In_Action]

I'm surprised that shadowdancer was considered hard to master as a class. It seems very easy to me: the Shadow guards you, you sneak attack the enemies. If the Shadow dies, you retreat and wait for it to come off cooldown.